Terror Attack: 130 Dead in Paris

[Greyblades]

I said they don't go to heaven, where is the blasphemy coming from?

Slight mix up, regardless, still failing to see how praying to the saints for guidance and support gets you banned from heaven.

[Husar]

Theirs is the most strident one. There are some interpretations of their culture that can mesh with the general western secular culture. But once that culture turns to faith, alarm bells ring, and interpretations of Islamic faith that fit into the general western secular culture are so quiet as to be unnoticeable. AFAIK PVC (or whatever he's called nowadays) believes in a Christian faith, but I feel no discomfort in mocking his faith and generally asserting my secular beliefs. His Christian beliefs, and most Christian beliefs in the UK, mesh seamlessly into the general western secular culture.

And is that surprising? As I will say to Fragony below, you cannot expect people to have a 180° change of mind. And I assume that part of the reason they teach their kids not to adopt too much of our culture is that they are often not very welcome here (even before terrorism was a thing). And giving up a religion is only easy for atheists, everybody else is afraid of ending up in a sea of fire or so. I can also live with people who may not agree with me as long as they don't turn disagreement into violence.
As for being quiet and unnoticeable, wouldn't be the first time that a vocal minority drowns out the rest, that's more or less a fact of life.

Of course it's a chicken and egg thing, but why should we make it our problem.. Refugees leave sorry world behind, colonists bring their sorry world with them.

Man Fragony, I'm fully with you on the don't let them impose their values on us, but the way you talk about it it usually sounds like you see a few pictures with five meanies and then you immediately want to throw all the families out with the dishwasher. When I hear of families that came here as refugees and built mafia structures, threatening judges and police etc., I wish the government would drive tanks through their homes and send them back to where they came from tomorrow. But I would never extend that to all refugees or think we can expect them to have a 180° change of mind just because they had to flee a place.

Slight mix up, regardless, still failing to see how praying to the saints for guidance and support gets you banned from heaven.

Because the only way there leads through Jesus and not through saints. By praying to them you turn them into little side-gods but the first of the ten commandments says you shall have no gods next to God.
Include all the idolatry and stuff and it really gets a bit much to the point where some catholics worship them almost more than God.
Of course not all catholics are the same, some may even be better catholics than others.

[Pannonian]

And is that surprising? As I will say to Fragony below, you cannot expect people to have a 180° change of mind. And I assume that part of the reason they teach their kids not to adopt too much of our culture is that they are often not very welcome here (even before terrorism was a thing). And giving up a religion is only easy for atheists, everybody else is afraid of ending up in a sea of fire or so. I can also live with people who may not agree with me as long as they don't turn disagreement into violence.
As for being quiet and unnoticeable, wouldn't be the first time that a vocal minority drowns out the rest, that's more or less a fact of life.

Then it's the duty of the supposed majority to assert themselves. The principal foundation of western secular society is to treat others as you would be treated. One aspect of this is that fanatics and any kind are unwelcome. In the past it used to be Jehovah's witnesses who were shunned lest your marginal interest should encourage them to take up more of your time. But at least they were peaceful, and respected your rights as an individual. See my point about Christians generally meshing well with the general secular society. Islamists respect no individual bar their own, and will happily exploit their host liberal society to widen their voice, and there is a far, far disproportionate tendency for their like to turn to violence. I try not to impose on anyone, except to help those in need of help where I see it. Why should I feel guilty about their so called less than warm welcomes, and why should I accommodate their subsequent turn to violence?

And as for giving up religion being a hard thing for these second generationers: from childhood they were brought up to be British. Why was this easier to give up than a religion that they had to actively, to the point of leaving this country, pursue? IIRC at least one of these militants disgusted his father, someone who actually moved to this country and regarded himself as British through and through. His father disowned him as a traitor to the country that raised him.

[Husar]

Then it's the duty of the supposed majority to assert themselves.

Does the NRA apologize very loudly every time a white guy shoots up a school or an abortion clinic?
Also see below, if you accept no group blame, why should they? Why do immigrants have more group responsibility than natives?
If you are so proud of our values, individual responsibility and same rights for all are good ones to start with.

Why should I feel guilty about their so called less than warm welcomes, and why should I accommodate their subsequent turn to violence?

Wooow, wrong connection. I meant the less than warm welcomes may hinder stronger integration of the more normal muslims, not that they excuse all violence or even terrorism. And if you see no need to feel bad for it, why should moderate muslims feel bad for islamist terrorism?

And as for giving up religion being a hard thing for these second generationers: from childhood they were brought up to be British.

Were they? Or were their families placed near other immigrant families because noone British wanted them and they basically grew up in Little Arabia? Do employers accept them as British or are they less likely to hire them?

Why was this easier to give up than a religion that they had to actively, to the point of leaving this country, pursue? IIRC at least one of these militants disgusted his father, someone who actually moved to this country and regarded himself as British through and through. His father disowned him as a traitor to the country that raised him.

Good for the father, or maybe bad after all. What is this anecdote supposed to tell me? Should I want the father to be thrown out of Britain now for being muslim and not fitting in? Did I say anywhere that all muslims in Britain are cute innocent little puppies and this proves me wrong? Are you saying sometimes young people do really stupid things and listen to the wrong people? Do you think British people protesting in streets and parliaments saying muslims have no place in Britain helped the young muslim guy listen to islamists telling him that the kuffar hate him for what he is or do you think it made it harder for him to betray Britain?

[Fisherking]

Does the NRA apologize very loudly every time a white guy shoots up a school or an abortion clinic?

Have you ever seen a headline, NRA Member Shoots Up School. That is because it hasn't happened. Why do you assume the NRA is a whites only organisation? Why must they apologise for the actions of nonmembers? Do you apologise every time a white guy does something insane and illegal?

It is only a political interest group, focused on one issue. The right to keep and bare arms. Its membership is about 5 million. Less than 2% of the population. It would not be an obstacle to legislation were it not for the fact that very many nonmembers also hold that right near and dear.

[Gilrandir]

That doesn't say that Christianity/Judaism cannot tolerate the existence of other religions, it says they cant tolerate any of it's own members following a second religion simultaneously.

... in which case they are counted among the worshippers of other religions which the first two commandments deny in being REAL religions.

@Gilrandir , I am not here to defend Christianity or any other religion. All I am telling you is that no other religion I know of is at war with every other religion on earth.

So far as I know, that distinction belongs to Islam and only to Islam.

I'm not defending Islam either. But what you say of Islam is true here and now, when (some of) its adherents choose to follow the most violent tenets of it. The Bible has plenty of such, but Christians don't take them literally. That is the difference. So it is not the religion which is to blame, but the way people interpret it.

[Greyblades]

Because the only way there leads through Jesus and not through saints. By praying to them you turn them into little side-gods but the first of the ten commandments says you shall have no gods next to God.
Include all the idolatry and stuff and it really gets a bit much to the point where some catholics worship them almost more than God.
Of course not all catholics are the same, some may even be better catholics than others.

Prayer isnt worship it's communication to those in heaven. It can be used as an avenue of worship but praying to a saint for guidance doesnt automatically make them a mini god, it certainly doesnt get you banned from heaven.

... in which case they are counted among the worshippers of other religions which the first two commandments deny in being REAL religions.

...but they do not tell the worshippers of Yahweh to kill or forcably convert the non believers: kind of my point.

[Fragony]

... in which case they are counted among the worshippers of other religions which the first two commandments deny in being REAL religions.



I'm not defending Islam either. But what you say of Islam is true here and now, when (some of) its adherents choose to follow the most violent tenets of it. The Bible has plenty of such, but Christians don't take them literally. That is the difference. So it is not the religion which is to blame, but the way people interpret it.

Bible: did this
Quran: do this

Don't like either but the difference isn't that hard to grasp

[Fisherking]

I'm not defending Islam either. But what you say of Islam is true here and now, when (some of) its adherents choose to follow the most violent tenets of it. The Bible has plenty of such, but Christians don't take them literally. That is the difference. So it is not the religion which is to blame, but the way people interpret it.

If memory serves, and it has been decades since I even held a bible, let alone studied it, the violence in it is always directed at specific peoples for a set duration or goal. Not an open and ongoing struggle for supremacy with all the rest of the world.

Were it only the minority beliefs of a few within the whole of the religion it would not be terribly alarming. It is primarily one branch of Islam, the Sunni, but not completely limited to them. However, some 940 million of the estimated 1 billion Muslims are adherents to this branch of Islam and of the Sunnah.

All branches seek the imposition of Sharia Law universally.

We prefer to ignore studies showing 23 to 25% of Muslims have been radicalised. I guess it makes us feel better to think that it is only a tiny percentage. Even so, one percent of a billion is 10 million. Let us say that only 5% would sympathise with the 1%. That is only another 50 million who would harbour or protect the most militants.

While I think if left in isolation within Muslim Nations this movement may play its self out but the active importation into Europe, in the name of Multiculturalism, is political, if not actual suicide for western civilisation.

[Pannonian]

Does the NRA apologize very loudly every time a white guy shoots up a school or an abortion clinic?
Also see below, if you accept no group blame, why should they? Why do immigrants have more group responsibility than natives?
If you are so proud of our values, individual responsibility and same rights for all are good ones to start with.

Wooow, wrong connection. I meant the less than warm welcomes may hinder stronger integration of the more normal muslims, not that they excuse all violence or even terrorism. And if you see no need to feel bad for it, why should moderate muslims feel bad for islamist terrorism?

Were they? Or were their families placed near other immigrant families because noone British wanted them and they basically grew up in Little Arabia? Do employers accept them as British or are they less likely to hire them?

Good for the father, or maybe bad after all. What is this anecdote supposed to tell me? Should I want the father to be thrown out of Britain now for being muslim and not fitting in? Did I say anywhere that all muslims in Britain are cute innocent little puppies and this proves me wrong? Are you saying sometimes young people do really stupid things and listen to the wrong people? Do you think British people protesting in streets and parliaments saying muslims have no place in Britain helped the young muslim guy listen to islamists telling him that the kuffar hate him for what he is or do you think it made it harder for him to betray Britain?

So we should throw out anecdotes because they're anecdotes, in favour of philosophical theorising from a distance away that's based on nothing but your theories of how things should work. Do they build particularly high ivory towers in Germany or something?

What the anecdote shows is that there is an alternative to radicalisation, which you'd argued was an inevitable consequence of a welcome for Muslims that's been less warm that you would term adequate. The father himself didn't feel the welcome the country gave him to be unreasonably cold, and he's thrown himself into the identity of being British. Yet his son went down the radicalisation route, despite being raised from childhood by the state (and whatever your opinion of UK vs Germany, the British state helps a lot more with child rearing that the states that these people come from).

Your every post argues that Britain is in some way lacking that has produced all these radicals. Yet nearly every one of these radicals has been through a radicalisation process in the hotspots that I talked about. Those who don't go to find their identity in Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Syria, etc. don't cause problems. They integrate well with the general dominant culture. Those who go to find their identity in these places are usually the troublemakers.

[Husar]

Do you apologise every time a white guy does something insane and illegal?

Yes, because the majority has to assert itself. I usually start on Instagram, then go via Twitter before I call Infowars live.

What the anecdote shows is that there is an alternative to radicalisation, which you'd argued was an inevitable consequence of a welcome for Muslims that's been less warm that you would term adequate.

Exactly, my argument was that ALL white British people are horrible creatures and that is why ALL muslims are radicals, that is why I said inevitable and totally excusable. I'm glad we agree.

Your every post argues that Britain is in some way lacking that has produced all these radicals. Yet nearly every one of these radicals has been through a radicalisation process in the hotspots that I talked about. Those who don't go to find their identity in Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Syria, etc. don't cause problems. They integrate well with the general dominant culture. Those who go to find their identity in these places are usually the troublemakers.

I was always a supporter of the idea of an inferior Britain, you really should have joined Hitler during the war. Would you ever mind explaining why the ones who do not want to cut our heads off have to apologize for the others or get thrown out of the country?

I'm glad that you noticed how I silently steered the discussion towards one about Britain to show its inferiority and that you saw how I apologized for terrorists.
@Fragony: I want gas chambers only for white people because of their inherent guilt.

[Graphic]

The Irish and Italian waves comes and all they bring with them are street hooligans and organized crime! We have to deport them all, their papist values are incompatible with American culture. They're more loyal to the pope than they are to our own laws! They will never integrate into our society!

Signed, Reasonable Man from 1920

[Fragony]

Man Fragony, I'm fully with you on the don't let them impose their values on us, but the way you talk about it it usually sounds like you see a few pictures with five meanies and then you immediately want to throw all the families out with the dishwasher. When I hear of families that came here as refugees and built mafia structures, threatening judges and police etc., I wish the government would drive tanks through their homes and send them back to where they came from tomorrow. But I would never extend that to all refugees or think we can expect them to have a 180° change of mind just because they had to flee a place..

You forgot gassing them all, get your reactionary right. But most aren't real refugees. Christians gays and women aren't safe in these centres, gays and women and christians are to be relocated away from people with culture, all these brain-surgeons ICT-experts and rocket-scientists keep the police from doing their job, they are too busy with 'refugees'. So yeah, a real refugee leaves his problems behind, they are timid not demanding. As some are. They even complain about not having a flatsscreen and the wifi is too slow. owwwwwwww they don't even get the food they eat at home