Things Are Changing

[Fragony]

I envy you. You get paid to drink vodka while other people pay to do that.

As forfinding your quote, my memory (unburdened by vodka) serves me quite OK. It was in the same discussion about face-covering, although in a different thread.

You misunderstand me, I meant you are free to find lemons, there is no such thing as too much lemons and you could be usefull

[Rhyfelwyr]

Was a bit sympathetic with the OP's argument until he compared mistreatment of women in the UK to what goes on in Saudi Arabia.

A nominal vote is useless when they are still denied even the most basic freedoms. Let them walk out the house or show their face in public before you start worrying about token political rights.

[AE Bravo]

A nominal vote is useless when they are still denied even the most basic freedoms. Let them walk out the house or show their face in public before you start worrying about token political rights.

Token political rights will enable those basic freedoms.

[Pannonian]

Token political rights will enable those basic freedoms.

In the British experience, institutional freedoms pre-dated political rights. By quite a long way. Actually, in the British experience, institutional freedoms has been a commonly accepted reality for goodness knows how many centuries. The British assumption of freedom unless specifically otherwise prescribed, and even then bitterly fought over, has been the model for liberal democratic countries all over the world, not least the US. What's it like in the country you're from?

[AE Bravo]

That's the way it works in most countries. Saudi Arabia is different because institutional freedoms and political rights are dictated by the clergy and the crown. This is a positive step in an Islamist society, look at Iran. Clergy has a growing post-Islamist threat of various stripes, this is a large part of it.

My country is too young to be in that conversation, but far better than Saudi Arabia in every way.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

That's the way it works in most countries. Saudi Arabia is different because institutional freedoms and political rights are dictated by the clergy and the crown. This is a positive step in an Islamist society, look at Iran. Clergy has a growing post-Islamist threat of various stripes, this is a large part of it.

My country is too young to be in that conversation, but far better than Saudi Arabia in every way.

Saudi Arabia is the same as Iran was - Iran fell apart after the Shah fell and it's only edged towards real democracy in the last decade, despite having a strong democratic tradition prior to the Shah's direct rule and a well educated populace.

You also have to ask why the Saudi Princes are doing this.

I see a couple of possible explanations:

A: Someone's Courtesan complained about rubbish collection in her ward.

B: They're trying to distract the US from what a terrible place it is by making token gestures towards reform.

At the other end of the scale you have Bahrain where the ruler is trying to move towards democracy and inclusion of women in the government but keeps running up against his ignorant male subjects who'd rather be ruled by Islamists.

[AE Bravo]

I got no love for the house of Saud, and while I think A is rubbish B is definitely possible. This is still a good thing.

As for Bahrain, I don't believe Islamists of both sects hold much power or are that popular for that matter. I spent two years there as a kid and went back a few years earlier, Islamist prudes are almost non-existent unlike Saudi Arabia. It's a free society with more progressives. In the end, it's a protectorate and you'd have to talk about Saudi interests when you talk about everything Bahrain.

[Fisherking]

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/...ution-teenager

[Greyblades]

Saudi arabia giving women those minor rights are like giving spare change to a hobo, it is a good thing but it's not going to do anything to offset any serious wrongs done by the giver.