SYRIA thread

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

To be fair, bureaucratic details won't be known by every member of the organization, and even important information could take longer than you expect to transmit to those who need it.

So we have incompetence vs the Kremlin policy to just lie, lie, lie.

[Brenus]

So we have incompetence vs the Kremlin policy to just lie, lie, lie.

The problem here, at least for me, is, as French, the experience of US and UK lying lying lying in several occasions in order to justify illegal wars and is still alive in my memory.
The smear campaign against France before and after Iraq II "the Return with a vengeance" and the robust flow of insults (firstly against intelligence) are still in my mind. Russia didn't participate in this, but our "allies" did.
So my experience and point of view is a bit different, I admit.

[Beskar]

The problem here, at least for me, is, as French, the experience of US and UK lying lying lying in several occasions in order to justify illegal wars and is still alive in my memory.
The smear campaign against France before and after Iraq II "the Return with a vengeance" and the robust flow of insults (firstly against intelligence) are still in my mind. Russia didn't participate in this, but our "allies" did.
So my experience and point of view is a bit different, I admit.

They renamed French Fries to Freedom Fries and banned French Mustard (which is an English Mustard brand). Things got pretty serious.

[Brenus]

They renamed French Fries to Freedom Fries and banned French Mustard (which is an English Mustard brand). Things got pretty serious.

Yeah, and this kind of things and as well "we will forgive Germany and punish France".
And the usual joke about French militaries...
If you think I forgot...

[Shaka_Khan]

The problem here, at least for me, is, as French, the experience of US and UK lying lying lying in several occasions in order to justify illegal wars and is still alive in my memory.
The smear campaign against France before and after Iraq II "the Return with a vengeance" and the robust flow of insults (firstly against intelligence) are still in my mind. Russia didn't participate in this, but our "allies" did.
So my experience and point of view is a bit different, I admit.

They renamed French Fries to Freedom Fries and banned French Mustard (which is an English Mustard brand). Things got pretty serious.

It happened at totalwar.com, too. There was a lot of French-bashing until a mod put a stop to it.

[AE Bravo]

So we have incompetence vs the Kremlin policy to just lie, lie, lie.

I don't understand this. They are asking for an investigation, give it to them if they're such liars...

http://www.latimes.com/world/la-fg-g...411-story.html
http://www.politico.com/story/2017/0...llerson-237097

Rather than breaking national (US) and international laws.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

The problem here, at least for me, is, as French, the experience of US and UK lying lying lying in several occasions in order to justify illegal wars and is still alive in my memory.
The smear campaign against France before and after Iraq II "the Return with a vengeance" and the robust flow of insults (firstly against intelligence) are still in my mind. Russia didn't participate in this, but our "allies" did.
So my experience and point of view is a bit different, I admit.

The only incidence of out-and-out "lying" I can think of from the UK/US is Gulf War II and then the lie was essentially turning "he might have WMD, but probably not, but he's blocking inspections" into "He probably has WMD and he's blocking inspections!"

This is what is known in Blighty as "being economical with the Truth".

Compare to Putin in Crimea "we have no troops in Crimea."

See the difference?

Added to which, both the UK and US have been through TWO political leaders since where Russia is still ruled by Putin's iron fist, just like 2003.

I don't understand this. They are asking for an investigation, give it to them if they're such liars...

http://www.latimes.com/world/la-fg-g...411-story.html
http://www.politico.com/story/2017/0...llerson-237097

Rather than breaking national (US) and international laws.

When the enquiry implicates Assad's regime Russia will call it filthy lies, just like the enquiry into the downing of MH17.

[Brenus]

See the difference?

Not really.
And for forgot "the Operation Horse Shoes" in Kosovo, the bodies piling-up in the Coal Mines, mass-graves to justify the final destruction of what left from Yugoslavia.
Plus I find a bit of irony for a country that use massively the Orange Agent (TCDD is the most toxic of the dioxins) in Vietnam to be the chief prosecution...

[Tristuskhan]

Plus I find a bit of irony for a country that use massively the Orange Agent (TCDD is the most toxic of the dioxins) in Vietnam to be the chief prosecution...

A war that got hot following the Tonkin Gulf Incident. Blattant lie.
What could we say about 89' intervention in Panama?
""necessary to safeguard the lives of U.S. citizens in Panama, defend democracy and human rights, combat drug trafficking, and secure the neutrality of the Panama Canal as required by the Torrijos–Carter Treaties" (Pdt Bush). The part about drug trafficking is not a lie. The rest.... more than so-so.

The overthrow of Juan Bosch of Dominican Republic in 1965 was made under allegations of communism and "foreign support", both a lot unsubstanciated.

What else....?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Found this via BBC:

https://assets.documentcloud.org/doc...hite-House.pdf

The US has declassified a four-page report on the attack, just skimming it shows there's a lot there to indicate Sarin and regime involvement.

Now, it could be a lie but cui bono suggests not, as without the report there's no discernible motivation for the US strike.

[Sarmatian]

The important thing to consider is that there is rarely one intelligence report, and politicians usually pick the one that suits their current narrative.

Often, just like Trump-Nunez fiasco, they tend to circularly support each other, ie. two separate intelligence reports sourcing each other as proof.

In this particular case, it's not a report, it's a White House paper that includes their own one page summary of an intelligence report.

Some of the stuff in there can raise some eyebrows, like how they specifically mention MSF as one of their sources that it was sarin attack but conveniently leave out chlorine which is mentioned in MSF report.

Another one the conclusion that it must have been the regime, because the regime used chemical weapons in the past. OPCW on the other hand, suspects Al Nusra and other opposition groups as being responsible for far more chemical attacks. It doesn't even mention that the territory was in control of none other than Al Nusra. Again, it appeals to authority (OPCW) but cherry picks the bits that support the current narrative, like with the MSF report.

Other issues are dubious statements like "the plane dropped a payload and immediately left the area", like it is standard practice that airplanes stick around for a prolonged period of time after they drop the payload.

And, finally, the idea that Russians must be lying because they have lied in the past, not really understanding that they discredit themselves also, for the dozens of false reports they've made in the past. That part doesn't surprise me though, when even John Kerry uttered the words "it's 21st century, you can't invade a country under a false pretext". On the whole, the western politicians' heads are so far up their asses that they wouldn't understand irony unless it is something made of iron that hits them on the head.

Brenus mentioned "Operation Horseshoe". The particular operation isn't well known now, but in 1999 it was used as a pretext for bombing of Serbia and Montenegro, because it was a detailed plan for extermination of Albanian population in Kosovo. Western media raced to provide details, British, American, German and other politicians held press conferences and it was unanimously confirmed by all major intelligence agencies from multiple countries. Until someone asked an actual question, and it turned out to be a game of telephone that went tragically and horribly wrong. Bulgarian intelligence uncovered the existence of a document titled "Operation Horseshoe", stated they couldn't verify what it actually was, but that it might be a plan for ethnic cleansing of Albanians. With each passing hand, the plan grew more dark and intelligence agencies and politicians more certain of its validity, until some time later, it all started unraveling, showing those intelligence reports were all based on ONE SINGLE UNVERIFIED report, made by Bulgarian intelligence. For more reading, visit Operation Horseshoe.

Now, to turn to those few parts of the document that, if true, condemn Assad pretty heavily, which are:

1) type of crater
2) presence of key personnel that tend be around when chemical weapons get used.

The second one isn't that much contradicting Syrian narrative. If suspected chemical workshops are in the area, it would make sense to have chemical weapons experts close by, but that would make the regime guilty of gross negligence if they bombed the area knowing that chemical weapons might be released on the populace.

The first one is much more damaging, as it would imply that there were no explosives in the payload. There's still the possibility of false information (or even Al Nusra firing on the civilians - less likely but a possibility) but intelligence agencies and politicians are much less likely to lie when the information is easy to verify by other sources.

[Brenus]

What else....?

Granada? Chile? Nicaragua? Iran?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Confirmed the attack was Sarin:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-39648503

Really hard to see how this wasn't the regime.