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Thread: SYRIA thread

  1. #541

    Default Re: SYRIA thread

    Wooooo!!!

  2. #542
    Member Member Tuuvi's Avatar
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    Default Re: SYRIA thread

    It's shameful how Trump has just thrown the Kurds to the wolves (ie Turkey) with no warning whatsoever after all the sacrifices they've made to defeat Daesh. If events in Afrin are any indication we can expect to see forced displacement and ethnic cleansing once Turkey invades. Not to mention the Syrian militias backed by Turkey have done a piss poor job of governing the areas they control and many have ties to Jihadists, so I wouldn't be surprised if this move inadvertently allows Daesh to revitalize and make a comeback. The YPG will probably turn to terrorism out of desperation as well, as they've done in Afrin. All in all it's a horrible situation for the people of Northern Syria who've enjoyed relative peace until now. The only way out is for them to cede everything to the Syrian government, which is a pretty raw deal considering that Assad is a tyrant who treated the Kurds horribly in the past.

  3. #543
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: SYRIA thread

    Not just Trump the whole West looks away from the misery of the Kurds.
    Last edited by Fragony; 12-20-2018 at 10:03.

  4. #544
    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: SYRIA thread

    Why on EARTH should the West get involved in these frankly tribal / ethnic spats? Their demands are mainly zero-sum.

    Giving them money / supplies enables them to kill each other better
    Sending humanitarian aid achieves pretty much the same thing.
    Sending in troops ends up with not only costing a fortune but getting the hatred from both sides - as well as the likely terrorist - sorry freedom fighter - attacks.

    In conclusion, the only thing each faction in the region wants from the west is the ability to beat the others.

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
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  5. #545
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: SYRIA thread

    Absolutily right of course

  6. #546
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, Cub Shoot 2 Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Treasure Diver Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Slack Man Champion, Japanese Baseball Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Super Mario Mushroom Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Fish Kill Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, KF 9000 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: SYRIA thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Tuuvi View Post
    It's shameful how Trump has just thrown the Kurds to the wolves (ie Turkey) with no warning whatsoever after all the sacrifices they've made to defeat Daesh. If events in Afrin are any indication we can expect to see forced displacement and ethnic cleansing once Turkey invades. Not to mention the Syrian militias backed by Turkey have done a piss poor job of governing the areas they control and many have ties to Jihadists, so I wouldn't be surprised if this move inadvertently allows Daesh to revitalize and make a comeback. The YPG will probably turn to terrorism out of desperation as well, as they've done in Afrin. All in all it's a horrible situation for the people of Northern Syria who've enjoyed relative peace until now. The only way out is for them to cede everything to the Syrian government, which is a pretty raw deal considering that Assad is a tyrant who treated the Kurds horribly in the past.
    Local non-Kurdish rulers treating the Kurds horribly is a pretty common experience for the governments in that region. Arguably, it is one of the few long-term policy goals that they have shared and continue to share.

    US governments have always been haphazard in their treatment of the Kurds, always deeming Kurdish needs secondary to the appeasement of Turkey or stability in Syria and Iraq. You can add in Bush 41's famous gaffe where he implied we would support a rebellion effort which the Kurd's took for a promise and not rhetoric and got quite a few Kurds dead for their trouble.

    Oh, and you can add in Trump's depth of experience with international affairs () and geopolitics into the mix.
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  7. #547
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, Cub Shoot 2 Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Treasure Diver Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Slack Man Champion, Japanese Baseball Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Super Mario Mushroom Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Fish Kill Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, KF 9000 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: SYRIA thread

    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post
    Why on EARTH should the West get involved in these frankly tribal / ethnic spats? Their demands are mainly zero-sum.

    Giving them money / supplies enables them to kill each other better
    Sending humanitarian aid achieves pretty much the same thing.
    Sending in troops ends up with not only costing a fortune but getting the hatred from both sides - as well as the likely terrorist - sorry freedom fighter - attacks.

    In conclusion, the only thing each faction in the region wants from the west is the ability to beat the others.

    Rampant cynicism always seems too dystopian to me....except when speaking of the Middle East.
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

    "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." -- H. L. Mencken

  8. #548
    Member Member Tuuvi's Avatar
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    Default Re: SYRIA thread

    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post
    Why on EARTH should the West get involved in these frankly tribal / ethnic spats? Their demands are mainly zero-sum.

    Giving them money / supplies enables them to kill each other better
    Sending humanitarian aid achieves pretty much the same thing.
    Sending in troops ends up with not only costing a fortune but getting the hatred from both sides - as well as the likely terrorist - sorry freedom fighter - attacks.

    In conclusion, the only thing each faction in the region wants from the west is the ability to beat the others.

    Normally I'm anti-intervention, not only because it just makes things worse as you say but also because I don't believe the US or any other country actually has good intentions when they start messing around abroad. However in this case the US was already there, and now they are pulling out without warning right when Turkey is threatening an invasion, totally leaving the SDF out to dry.

    Also, the SDF/YPG's political program, Democratic Confederalism, explicitly rejects nationalism and there are Arabs and Assyrians within the SDF and the autonomous administration. I know some analysts claim they're a token presence and it's just propaganda, but I've been following the situation in North Syria for a while and I believe the Kurds' attempts to work with the other ethnic groups in the region is genuine, it's just that there's a lot of mistrust between them that has to be overcome.

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  9. #549
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: SYRIA thread

    I understand the German Foriegn Minister has tweeted that America's action is "deeply irresponsible".

    If he is aware of the great ocean of irony that sits beneath the statement, he's doing a stellar job of hiding it!
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

  10. #550
    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: SYRIA thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Tuuvi View Post
    Normally I'm anti-intervention, not only because it just makes things worse as you say but also because I don't believe the US or any other country actually has good intentions when they start messing around abroad. However in this case the US was already there, and now they are pulling out without warning right when Turkey is threatening an invasion, totally leaving the SDF out to dry.

    Also, the SDF/YPG's political program, Democratic Confederalism, explicitly rejects nationalism and there are Arabs and Assyrians within the SDF and the autonomous administration. I know some analysts claim they're a token presence and it's just propaganda, but I've been following the situation in North Syria for a while and I believe the Kurds' attempts to work with the other ethnic groups in the region is genuine, it's just that there's a lot of mistrust between them that has to be overcome.
    Banking on the USA staying the course is a severe case of hope over reality. At best, some of the survivors might be airlifted away from their homes.

    The Kurds want a homeland. But no country in the region wants them to have one. Unless the West goes all 19/20th Century and gifts them someone else's land and then pays indefinitely for the upkeep and protection what hope does it have?

    Before the USA starts trying to understand thousands of years of geopolitical reality in the Middle East, perhaps they could start to sort out the "mistrust" the Native Americans have and start giving them back more land that they said is theirs.

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
    Science flies you to the moon, religion flies you into buildings.
    "If you can't trust the local kleptocrat whom you installed by force and prop up with billions of annual dollars, who can you trust?" Lemur
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  11. #551
    Old Town Road Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
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    Default Re: SYRIA thread

    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post
    Before the USA starts trying to understand thousands of years of geopolitical reality in the Middle East, perhaps they could start to sort out the "mistrust" the Native Americans have and start giving them back more land that they said is theirs.
    A bit rich coming from an Englishman.

    In the wake of such an abrupt skirting of our commitments, the least we could do is bring our most visible supporters over here. Trump won't do that because of his racism, but it would be the moral thing to do.
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    I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation.

  12. #552
    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: SYRIA thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Strike For The South View Post
    A bit rich coming from an Englishman.

    In the wake of such an abrupt skirting of our commitments, the least we could do is bring our most visible supporters over here. Trump won't do that because of his racism, but it would be the moral thing to do.
    I'm not the one implying that for the want of some trust they'd all be bestest buddies. When we were taking land from the people who took land from the previous people we did it since we were stronger, not some divine right.
    I think it is beyond the will of the West to sort out the mess since there is no will for the levels of slaughter, repression and destruction of cultures to get stable borders.



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    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
    Science flies you to the moon, religion flies you into buildings.
    "If you can't trust the local kleptocrat whom you installed by force and prop up with billions of annual dollars, who can you trust?" Lemur
    If you're not a liberal when you're 25, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative by the time you're 35, you have no brain.
    The best argument against democracy is a five minute talk with the average voter. Winston Churchill

  13. #553
    Member Member Tuuvi's Avatar
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    Default Re: SYRIA thread

    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post
    Banking on the USA staying the course is a severe case of hope over reality. At best, some of the survivors might be airlifted away from their homes.

    The Kurds want a homeland. But no country in the region wants them to have one. Unless the West goes all 19/20th Century and gifts them someone else's land and then pays indefinitely for the upkeep and protection what hope does it have?

    Before the USA starts trying to understand thousands of years of geopolitical reality in the Middle East, perhaps they could start to sort out the "mistrust" the Native Americans have and start giving them back more land that they said is theirs.

    I never said it was the US's job to sort out relations between Kurds and Arabs. I just think they shouldn't abandon the SDF so soon before some measure of peace and stability has been achieved.

    And again, the SDF are not nationalists or separatists. Their stated goal is a federal system of government for Syria where all the ethnic components would have their own autonomy.

  14. #554
    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: SYRIA thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Tuuvi View Post
    I never said it was the US's job to sort out relations between Kurds and Arabs. I just think they shouldn't abandon the SDF so soon before some measure of peace and stability has been achieved.

    And again, the SDF are not nationalists or separatists. Their stated goal is a federal system of government for Syria where all the ethnic components would have their own autonomy.
    And I imagine the surrounding countries view this as a first step towards unifying the Kurdish lands. Iran and Turkey have no desire to see this happening.



    Sent from my EVR-L29 using Tapatalk
    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
    Science flies you to the moon, religion flies you into buildings.
    "If you can't trust the local kleptocrat whom you installed by force and prop up with billions of annual dollars, who can you trust?" Lemur
    If you're not a liberal when you're 25, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative by the time you're 35, you have no brain.
    The best argument against democracy is a five minute talk with the average voter. Winston Churchill

  15. #555
    Ni dieu ni maître! Senior Member a completely inoffensive name's Avatar
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    Default Re: SYRIA thread

    This is an aside, but I did not take you as a Huawei fan, @rory_20_uk
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  16. #556
    Shadow Senior Member Kagemusha's Avatar
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    Default Re: SYRIA thread

    It is quite interesting indeed when SDF and Assad forces are the only ones fighting ISIS together at Hajin, with US air support, while Turkey prepares to invade the SDF controlled areas at Northern Syria. Meantime US secretary of Defense Mattis resigns after Trumps decisions concerning withdrawals from both Syria and Afghanistan. Now Afghanistan i can somewhat understand to a degree, but if US withdraws from Syria.It will mean that Russian backed Assad regime is going nowhere and my bet is that next problems will rise between Syrian government and Turkey.
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  17. #557

    Default Re: SYRIA thread

    An amusing analogy I saw was the difference between leaving through the front door and leaving through an upper-story window.
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  18. #558

    Default Re: SYRIA thread

    Of the ~2500 troops stationed in Syria, Trump says 400 will remain, and most of the rest will be "going to different parts of the world", such as Iraq.

    (Maybe Venezuela lol? -Ed.)
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  19. #559
    Old Town Road Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
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    Default Re: SYRIA thread

    Abandoning the Kurds will go down as a great shame. If we are not going to help them there, we should at least help them get here. That won't happen because Trump, but it should.
    There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford

    My aim, then, was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.

    I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation.

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