Converting Civilization3 unit animations

[Stazi]

About the mounts - Stazi could you check if mounts added to those larger files cause problems with new factions? Some files tended to cause CTDs when used by added factions and I'd like to be sure.

If there are no problems some files used by horses/camels can be spared and at least to could be assigned to Landsknechte units which have to be available to new factions.

For tests I chose Mousquetaires Du Roi because the unit uses "critical" MSHelm folder. For horses I chose the most popular LiHorse forder.

First, I gave them to ALL_FACTIONS and started a few custom battles. Unfortunately, this unit cause CTD with new factions like Khazan, Livonia, etc. The new 1024p textures, obviously, cause CTD too.

Second, I changed the texture in LiHorse and MSHelm folders (leaving Mousquetaires Du Roi to FN_FRENCH as intended). This time all worked smoothly. No crashes.

Both steps were tested with several different units and faction setups.

Conclusions:

1. Technically, 1024p textures works the same as 512p. CTDs are caused by "critical" folders and new factions, not textures.

2. Resizing mount textures to 1024p have to be followed by resizing all riders' folders (they have to be proportional because mounts don't have their own SCALE parameter). It involves changing/tuning all animations rectangles. Weapons and shields too. The whole procedure makes cavalry smaller so all infantry has to be scaled down accordingly or changed to 1024p too. Smaller models need also changes in UNIT_PROD (parameters like: RADIUS, FORMATION_WIDTH_SPACING, FORMATION_LENGTH_SPACING). Without it all units looks like in loose formation all the time. It looks the same like reducing a unit SCALE - leaves too much space between soldiers.

The whole process is quite easy but very time consuming. It can be done for 2.0 but probably not for 1.6.
All this testing thing gave me some new ideas. I let you know if I find something interesting.

[cegorach]

Ok, so we cannot use this approach unless ALL graphic files for units are changed as well? Is that right?

Have you encountered any problems with the palette e.g. some animations are impossible to import to the same, larger file with other animations? I think it could be a problem in some cases.


There are units in the game which are using Shogun TW and Middle Earth mod graphics - almost only for Tartar cavalry.

I wonder if LiHorse horses and those animations where the WHOLE horse & rider is placed can be thrown into the same file (similar colours should help) and used as a testing subjects.
I wonder if in the case of combined horse & rider supported by imported LiHorse graphics animations manipulating the scale will be easier and give us something which can be fielded side by side with the older graphics.

Original LiHorse would stay where it is right now, but this new file could include Tartars and horse animations from LiHorse (besides it is necessary for Tartar units with two steeds) - this way it could work better and won't require too many changes + could serve us well in the future saving space and in the end clear original LiHorse directory for something else.





BTW I realise how time consuming the process is, but perhaps in thise unique case results will be easier to implement without the need to change all animations in the game.

Also, does Middle Earth or Napoleonic TW have other mount animations? I mean white or black horses. If in the end we will find ourselves with so much space in graphic files and all cavalrymen animations will have to be changed anyway we could add some variety also in this department.

Just to be clear I have permission to use NTW animations, but not LOTR graphics except the single one PMTW uses already.

Anyway that is for the much, much later stage.


I am looking forward to the new ideas if there are any. New graphics can wait, but if we learn more about those files it will save us some trouble in the future.

If for example we get rid off the 'troublesome', CTD causing directories because we won't need them anymore that would be a nice bonus, even though the units which use them are meant to be rare and unlikely to be received by bribery.

[Stazi]

Ok, so we cannot use this approach unless ALL graphic files for units are changed as well? Is that right?

Generally, yes.

Have you encountered any problems with the palette e.g. some animations are impossible to import to the same, larger file with other animations? I think it could be a problem in some cases.

I haven't encountered any problems till now. What do you have in mind exactly?

There are units in the game which are using Shogun TW and Middle Earth mod graphics - almost only for Tartar cavalry.

Yes, I saw them. Not all of them are used right now (in 1.5). IIRC textures from folders: MONGHCAV, PLATECAV and PLATES are not used at all in any of the 3 campaigns.

I wonder if LiHorse horses and those animations where the WHOLE horse & rider is placed can be thrown into the same file (similar colours should help) and used as a testing subjects.

Do you mean like that mongol heavy cavalry from MONGHCAV folder combined with LiHorse texture? I think it'll work. You already use KHorse and EHorse folders for something totally different than horses. btw We have to remember that some horse folder names are linked to special features like ArmHorse and EHorse being armored and thus more resistant to enemy fire (I'm not sure about camel because there is a special column in UNIT_PROD file that specifies HORSE/CAMEL/NONE). But I think it only works that way when those folders are used for mounts.

I wonder if in the case of combined horse & rider supported by imported LiHorse graphics animations manipulating the scale will be easier and give us something which can be fielded side by side with the older graphics.

Hmm.. nice idea. You mean like placing rider over a horse in one texture, in the same frame, right? This can work but rider combined with horse will make much bigger frames and thus less space for other units in texture.

Original LiHorse would stay where it is right now, but this new file could include Tartars and horse animations from LiHorse (besides it is necessary for Tartar units with two steeds) - this way it could work better and won't require too many changes + could serve us well in the future saving space and in the end clear original LiHorse directory for something else.

If I understand it right, horses combined with riders won't save us that much space. As I said above, such animations will have much bigger frames, especially that you'll need to resize htem up at least 50% to have some space for SCALE manipulation. When you put 512p textures into 1024p texture, soldiers are always too small comparing to old ones (even with maxed SCALE). Hmm.. I'll make one unit in 1024p and you'll see how it looks.


BTW I realise how time consuming the process is, but perhaps in thise unique case results will be easier to implement without the need to change all animations in the game.

Also, does Middle Earth or Napoleonic TW have other mount animations? I mean white or black horses.

LOTR has one black horse. It's just recolored LiHorse.

Just to be clear I have permission to use NTW animations, but not LOTR graphics except the single one PMTW uses already.

A few years ago I sent PMs to all creators form Middle-Eaath team I found. The one that answered said me something like "do whatever you want. No one really cares now".

[cegorach]

I haven't encountered any problems till now. What do you have in mind exactly?

Some files in PMTW include animations which were set to very specific colours, I do believe that if four different animations will be used in a single file it can cause some problems.

I'd suggest to try it in some cases - a single pose from a file each should be enough to see if the animations can 'co-exist' in the same file.

Yes, I saw them. Not all of them are used right now (in 1.5). IIRC textures from folders: MONGHCAV, PLATECAV and PLATES are not used at all in any of the 3 campaigns.

They are in 2.0 and will be used in 1.6.

Do you mean like that mongol heavy cavalry from MONGHCAV folder combined with LiHorse texture? I think it'll work. You already use KHorse and EHorse folders for something totally different than horses. btw We have to remember that some horse folder names are linked to special features like ArmHorse and EHorse being armored and thus more resistant to enemy fire (I'm not sure about camel because there is a special column in UNIT_PROD file that specifies HORSE/CAMEL/NONE). But I think it only works that way when those folders are used for mounts.

Something like that, but also in general files which right now feature a whole rider on a horse, and combined with a separate horse animation (LiHorse) on this 4 times bigger picture.

Hmm.. nice idea. You mean like placing rider over a horse in one texture, in the same frame, right? This can work but rider combined with horse will make much bigger frames and thus less space for other units in texture.

Actually I thought about using the same file for four animations - including one of a horse and another with a rider on a horse (Tartar animations from STW) - placing them in the same 1024x1024 file could serve as a nice field for testing - to see how rider on a horse looks like compared to cavalry using old, 512x512 files.
Because this cavalry animation sometimes has to use two mounts (one unit) as I wanted it would be a nice place to keep LiHorse animation intended for future cavalry.
Right now it could be used to check if the problem with the scale can be solved by placing horse animation in the same place as rider animation and only by manipulating with numbers in unit_prod file.

Think of it as a temporary solution and a way to test something.

If I understand it right, horses combined with riders won't save us that much space. As I said above, such animations will have much bigger frames, especially that you'll need to resize htem up at least 50% to have some space for SCALE manipulation. When you put 512p textures into 1024p texture, soldiers are always too small comparing to old ones (even with maxed SCALE). Hmm.. I'll make one unit in 1024p and you'll see how it looks.

I had to cut stuff from Shogun TW animations because STW graphics use two files for cavalry instead of one, so Tartars do not use all of moves available in STW, but about half of them (it was very had to choose).

On bigger 1024p files ALL STW graphics could be used and would take just a half of 1024p file. But it is perfectly enough if only current Tartar riding horse animation is imported and tested to see how a rider on a horse looks like and how much different can it be with different scale compared to the current cavalry.

LOTR has one black horse. It's just recolored LiHorse.

A few years ago I sent PMs to all creators form Middle-Eaath team I found. The one that answered said me something like "do whatever you want. No one really cares now".

This means that black horses are available. White/grey ones can be used from NTW.

If one 1024p file will be used eventually for four mounts one LiHorse directory will give us a dazzling variety of unarmoured horses and will help in making some units visually different from others which use the very same rider animation.

In such a case:

btw We have to remember that some horse folder names are linked to special features like ArmHorse and EHorse being armored and thus more resistant to enemy fire

one of those two directories could be given to better protected mounts or for units which had more than one mount kept in a reserve - something which doesn't have to be visable.

[Stazi]

If one 1024p file will be used eventually for four mounts one LiHorse directory will give us a dazzling variety of unarmoured horses and will help in making some units visually different from others which use the very same rider animation.

Horses can have faction coloring like any other units. We can recolor some parts like harness or blanket under the saddle so every faction will have their own, slightly different looking horses.

[cegorach]

Of course, but a variety of horses would be a nice thing.

Not now, but in the end when the conversion to 1024p is complete.

We have nothing but time for that if Civ3 animations can be converted relatively easily.


Easily compared to what we had to do before with YanTraken - he was drawing the poses and I've been copying/pasting them into .BMPs frame by frame and setting that in the game. Wonders of Windows Paint and MTW modding tools.




If even 8 new animations are added in the end it will be huge.

Hell, maybe I'll try to learn how to import Aztec and Inca warriors for custom game/MP game only factions.

Thanks to your discoveries we have at least a possibility and that is a lot.

[zweihander]

Easily compared to what we had to do before with YanTraken - he was drawing the poses and I've been copying/pasting them into .BMPs frame by frame and setting that in the game. Wonders of Windows Paint and MTW modding tools.

I know many unit anims in PMTW such as the RussianMusketeer(Str…), CossackMusketeer(Zapo…), Janissary, Free Lancer, Men at Arm etc. are obviously made by hand-drawing. But I'm curious about the Winged Hussar, which is the best quality unit anim and even better than the original MTW's, are they hand-drawing or convert to 2d from a 3d model?
(p.s. IIRC once I have saw a early Winged Hussar with only one wing animation in a directory(forget which one now), but I never see them in game? )

And as I said before, I have ask BG to draw some landsknechts(but he is quite busy right now), so I would just consider the Civ3 Landsknecht a tempory solution of the Doppelsoldner unit for 1.6--after all it is not in the best quality due to the original image's small size. What I have not mention brfore is that I ask BC to draw 4 kinds of landsknecht(Doppelsoldner, Forlorn hope, armoured Pike/Halberd/Musket, unarmoured Pike/halberd/Musket), and I was worry about there are no enough directories for them before. But not a problem right now! Once the 1024p method is done, I can easily put the 4 landsknechts in one bif, since they would be in similar colour it would not be hard to do so.

Hell, maybe I'll try to learn how to import Aztec and Inca warriors for custom game/MP game only factions.

Well… Not a good idea IMO. Just think it is ridiculus to see Native Americans fighting in Europe…

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Another problem I met is, if you want to add dead bodies in PMTW, and you use the 1024p method at the same time, you will find that when you increase the unit scale to 225, its dead body is increase to 225% size too, it means that a small man died on the battlefield would leave a giant dead body… Edit/remake the dead_bodies.LBM is necessary.

[cegorach]

P.S. When it comes to PMTW animations we were trying to squeeze as much as possible in a single file.

This means that sometimes various units use various parts of a file. Could be a nightmare to convert to 1024p.

I'll better post images of the new map how I see it and upload the files.

It should be ready to Friday. I'll have to compare it to the event list before it is done.
It is better to use as many useful & meaningful event features as possible.

[Stazi]

CTDs are caused by "critical" folders and new factions, not textures.

I've done some tests and it appears that the problem persists no matter what tricks I try. The problem is not directly connected with new factions. First, 20 factions declared in startpos work flawlessly. This includes Scots (19th) and Moldavian (20th) which are new factions. All the next factions (21-30) have about 90% of causing CTD. Sometimes they work, especially when one of those 20 factions used the problematic unit folder before. So, it looks like some hardcoded limit form MTW 1.0 that devs forget to change in later, more mod friendly versions.

IMHO factions 21-30 should be the smallest and poorest of all to minimize the chance of bribery and CTD.

[zweihander]

I think it would be more efficient to convert Civ3 units if we can cooperate together.

I already export the Estalian Swordsman(made by T-mun) into BMP format(files in the 'Custom6.rar' attachment) and already get rid of the background/shadow/semi-transparent pixels obstacles. The files are look like this:


The only remained step is to cut and paste these pieces into 12 BMP frames and import them into a BIF. Anyone like to help?

Hope someone can help with this, it would reduce my workload. If no one want to do this, I would find some time to finish the frames later.

[Stazi]

I'll be glad to help but I have limited time too. I'm still working on those 1024p textures. I have some problems with weapons and shields placement as they are not as easy to define as animation frames. When I have more free time I'll let you know.

[Stazi]

More tests and more results. First the file I've prepared:

LOTR black horse on the bottom right. Not as black as original mongol horse but I think black enough.


I declared Atli Tatarlar as "LIHORSE, YES, YES, LiHorse" and here are results:

A you can see spaces between soldiers have to be reduced.


How they look comparing to the size of Tatars from old 512p texture (below). You can see that old/big Tatars already use additinal small LiHorse (they use the same LiHorse folder for their mount). This is how they look without touching the SCALE.
An advantage is that smaller soldier sprites don't get anti-aliased and blurred that much as old, bigger units. They look sharp despite their low resolution.


So, i think we can use any combination we want. Using the same folder for horse and horse+rider is not a problem.

[cegorach]

Good to see how it looks. Can you post images after you manipulate the scale of the models? Comparison with 'normal' animations will be nice to see.

Similar with cavalry which uses weapons - I suspect moving those spears can be tricky in 1024p file.


For now no need to convert the animations, that will take a lot of time which right now can be used for something more valuable.

Animations can wait as long as necessary to make them and as long as confortable it is to find time for this work - hardly most pleasant activity give the number of files to convert, in my opinion.

I think that if there are any ideas for new animations those can be made in 1024p files - won't be available in 1.6, but it will save the effort to rework them for 2.0.



It is a small wonder how much can be done with this game. Outstanding how much space for modding was left by the creators, I guess they never suspected we could use those possibilities whenever they've left those by mistake or intentionally...
after all all this stuff actually works in the game even if it is so far from the original.

[Stazi]

Good to see how it looks. Can you post images after you manipulate the scale of the models? Comparison with 'normal' animations will be nice to see.

Scale set to max (225). On the right is new Atli Tatarlar, on the left old Izci Tatarlar. Surprisingly, they look exactly the same as the old ones. Usually there is a 20-30% difference.

Similar with cavalry which uses weapons - I suspect moving those spears can be tricky in 1024p file.

I'll make one tomorrow. Yes, it's tricky because I can't use Excel to automate recalculation of frame rectangles. Readbif is a little cumbersome to use.

It is a small wonder how much can be done with this game. Outstanding how much space for modding was left by the creators, I guess they never suspected we could use those possibilities whenever they've left those by mistake or intentionally...
after all all this stuff actually works in the game even if it is so far from the original.

Exactly! That's the main reason I enjoy digging in this stuff over and over again. Nearly, every time I found something I didn't know before. For example we use resized to 31px width (and thus distorted) EU2 shields for campaign map pieces while we can use use them as they are about 50px width. It's a small thing but ugliness of those shields really bothered me.