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Thread: The police victim controversy

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    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default The police victim controversy

    There is a great controversy in Ukraine on the following issue.

    Late in the evening the police (the new police which is being introduced here and is considered to be the only successful reform of the current Ukrainian government) noticed four youths about and under 20 getting into a car with uncorked bottles of alcohol (not sure what kind of it). The police asked them to stop but they jumped into the car and tried to escape.

    Since their car was more powerful (some BMW) they were always ahead of the chase driving at the speed of 185-190 kmph. They crossed into the oncoming line several times and dodged other police cars which joined the chase that lasted for quite a time. All this while the police were ordering them to stop but they didn't obey. Finally, seeing that the driver was inadequate and could easily harm pedestrians the police decided to open fire. First shots were into the air, then came those on target. As the speed was high the shots were wild and didn't stop them. Suddenly the car, which was quite a longish way ahead, stopped. The police cars surrounded it and the poilicemen approached and demanded to surrender. The car started moving again, at first backwards running over a policemen then forward so that the policeman in front of the car opened fire and hardly jumped aside out of its way.

    The bullets went through the windshield and three of them hit the passenger on the front seat killing him on the spot. As it turned out later, it was a 17 year old youth who had joined his friends for a ride. The tests showed that the driver was both drunk and high. The policeman submitted his camera footage and was arrested the next day. The driver enjoyed his freedom for three weeks and only then was arrested.

    All this while people were debating who was to blame in the youth's death. Some think that the police was right and even held some meetings voicing their support (an unheard of thing for Ukraine - a concourse of people supporting police, not denouncing them). Others say that the victim was innocent and what police did was a murder.

    I would like to know what people here think of it all.
    Last edited by Gilrandir; 02-28-2016 at 13:19.
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    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: The police victim controversy

    The dead one committed suicide by cop. The survivors were attempting suicide by cop.

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    Member Member Crandar's Avatar
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    Default Re: The police victim controversy

    There is no doubt that at least the driver should have been executed, because he put several lives in danger and even attempted murder.
    I am surprised that that incident is controversial in Ukraine.

    I thought you were more cow-boyish than us, but here everyone is expecting to be shot, if he does something minor, like ignoring a roadblock.

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    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: The police victim controversy

    The main criminal (driver) who was attempting to kill two police officers, the 2nd one fired in self-defense, and unfortunately struck a passenger whose involvement could be quite questionable. Whilst the death was a very unfortunate incident, it wasn't murder by the police officer, as murder requires active planning and intent, and in the scenario pictures, the officers shooting was done in an attempt of self-defense against the driver trying to actively murder him and his colleagues by running over them.

    Argument could be made, such as in Britain, that the use of guns is limited by police forces, and as such, the officer shouldn't have been armed. However, laws are as they are in the Ukraine where they are permitted to use weapons of force more regularly. As long as the officer has followed procedure as dictated by his training, legally speaking, he hasn't done anything wrong.

    Now, there is the role of the passenger themselves. Did they get in the vehicle with friends, decided to do something stupid, then found themselves in a situation where they couldn't exit the vehicle and effectively being held hostage by the driver/friend? If this is the case, the main one responsible for the death is the driver morally speaking. If the passenger was proactively encouraging the driver to do those acts, then the passenger themselves has responsibility in their own death.

    The situation is pretty much lose-lose for everyone involved. But from the facts outlined, the Police officer didn't do murder.
    Last edited by Beskar; 02-28-2016 at 13:40.
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    Horse Archer Senior Member Sarmatian's Avatar
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    Default Re: The police victim controversy

    Quote Originally Posted by Beskar View Post
    The main criminal (driver) who was attempting to kill two police officers, the 2nd one fired in self-defense, and unfortunately struck a passenger whose involvement could be quite questionable. Whilst the death was a very unfortunate incident, it wasn't murder by the police officer, as murder requires active planning and intent, and in the scenario pictures, the officers shooting was done in an attempt of self-defense against the driver trying to actively murder him and his colleagues by running over them.
    There's really nothing more to say.

    Police did nothing wrong. One can only feel sadness for the loss of life.

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    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: The police victim controversy

    The probable reason why there is certain compassion to the killed youth is that he wasn't "one of them", so to say. He went out of some disco together with his friends who called a taxi. But at that moment the BMW drove along. He recognized the guys in it and refused to wait for the taxi. He said he would get home (or wherever he was going to get) later - the BMW posse would get him there. Those guys in the BMW evidently were on a drunken spree and he (involuntarily?) became a part of it. There is a question whether the victim was inebriated when he got into the car (as young men tend to be after the night dancing) and whether he (and other pasengers) dissuaded or encouraged the driver.
    Quote Originally Posted by Suraknar View Post
    The article exists for a reason yes, I did not write it...

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    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: The police victim controversy

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrandir View Post
    The probable reason why there is certain compassion to the killed youth is that he wasn't "one of them", so to say. He went out of some disco together with his friends who called a taxi. But at that moment the BMW drove along. He recognized the guys in it and refused to wait for the taxi. He said he would get home (or wherever he was going to get) later - the BMW posse would get him there. Those guys in the BMW evidently were on a drunken spree and he (involuntarily?) became a part of it. There is a question whether the victim was inebriated when he got into the car (as young men tend to be after the night dancing) and whether he (and other pasengers) dissuaded or encouraged the driver.
    If he had no part in encouraging the driver, then his death is one of misadventure. If you go off and do stupid things, and getting into a car with drunk, high or irresponsible friends counts as such, if you get yourself killed, it is no fault of others if they were not doing anything unreasonable. The fault lies with those who had a part in turning the situation unreasonable, in this case the driver and anyone else who may have been encouraging him.

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    Horse Archer Senior Member Sarmatian's Avatar
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    Default Re: The police victim controversy

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrandir View Post
    The probable reason why there is certain compassion to the killed youth is that he wasn't "one of them", so to say. He went out of some disco together with his friends who called a taxi. But at that moment the BMW drove along. He recognized the guys in it and refused to wait for the taxi. He said he would get home (or wherever he was going to get) later - the BMW posse would get him there. Those guys in the BMW evidently were on a drunken spree and he (involuntarily?) became a part of it. There is a question whether the victim was inebriated when he got into the car (as young men tend to be after the night dancing) and whether he (and other pasengers) dissuaded or encouraged the driver.
    Couldn't have he gotten out of the car when it stopped though?

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    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: The police victim controversy

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarmatian View Post
    Couldn't have he gotten out of the car when it stopped though?
    I don't know why the car eventually stopped nor what was going on inside. Perhaps all those were in the state of shock or afraid that if they got out they would be shot.

    During the chase the arrested policeman said something like: "If we catch them I'm gonna kill them" - the words that were interpreted (by the lawyers of the victim) as intention of the policeman to kill the youth(s).
    Quote Originally Posted by Suraknar View Post
    The article exists for a reason yes, I did not write it...

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    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: The police victim controversy

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrandir View Post
    I don't know why the car eventually stopped nor what was going on inside. Perhaps all those were in the state of shock or afraid that if they got out they would be shot.

    During the chase the arrested policeman said something like: "If we catch them I'm gonna kill them" - the words that were interpreted (by the lawyers of the victim) as intention of the policeman to kill the youth(s).
    If the policeman said that in a way that the kids could hear it, I think the proper judicial term is "multi-level cluster****".
    If the kids didn't hear that, then he could have gotten out when the car stopped and surrendered. Otherwise it is not unreasonable to assume that he was somehow part of the group. Shots had already been fired, then they drove over a policeman, what the policeman who shot did was to be expected at this point. Don't blame him, blame the one who decided to start this mess by driving a car under heavy influence.


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    Dux Nova Scotia Member lars573's Avatar
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    Default Re: The police victim controversy

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrandir View Post
    I don't know why the car eventually stopped nor what was going on inside. Perhaps all those were in the state of shock or afraid that if they got out they would be shot.

    During the chase the arrested policeman said something like: "If we catch them I'm gonna kill them" - the words that were interpreted (by the lawyers of the victim) as intention of the policeman to kill the youth(s).
    That kind of fight of flight reactions is why western police forces try and avoid high speed chases if they can now. The police get so hopped up on adrenaline they can do more harm in the end game take down. Helicopters can chase a car on the ground any where.

    Anyway the driver crossed a line with the attempted vehicular manslaughter. Then the police had a duty to protect themselves and their comrades. The priority of life hierarchy. Civilians, then law enforcement, then subjects.
    Last edited by lars573; 02-28-2016 at 18:11.
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    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: The police victim controversy

    Quote Originally Posted by lars573 View Post
    Helicopters can chase a car on the ground any where.
    Drones!


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    Dux Nova Scotia Member lars573's Avatar
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    Default Re: The police victim controversy

    They can't go everywhere.
    If you havin' skyrim problems I feel bad for you son.. I dodged 99 arrows but my knee took one.

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    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: The police victim controversy

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    If the policeman said that in a way that the kids could hear it, I think the proper judicial term is "multi-level cluster****".
    If the kids didn't hear that, then he could have gotten out when the car stopped and surrendered.
    He didn't hear that because it was what the policeman said to his mates inside the patrol car during the chase.
    Quote Originally Posted by Suraknar View Post
    The article exists for a reason yes, I did not write it...

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    Old Town Road Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
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    Default Re: The police victim controversy

    I didn't realize The Ukraine had black people.
    There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford

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    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: The police victim controversy

    Quote Originally Posted by Strike For The South View Post
    I didn't realize The Ukraine had black people.
    Do you realize that it is not THE Ukraine any longer?

    http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-18233844

    As for the the blacks, they are very scarce, mostly Africans who studied at Universities here (and moslty in big cities) and chose to stay after they got married to Ukrainians, or their offspring.
    Quote Originally Posted by Suraknar View Post
    The article exists for a reason yes, I did not write it...

  17. #17
    Old Town Road Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
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    Default Re: The police victim controversy

    I know but I also know yall hate it. I couldn't resist
    There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford

    My aim, then, was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.

    I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation.

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