Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 38

Thread: Jill Stein

  1. #1
    Old Town Road Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Between Louis' sheets
    Posts
    10,369

    Default Jill Stein

    Open borders and a welfare state are planks in her platform. How would this work?
    There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford

    My aim, then, was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.

    I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation.

  2. #2
    Banned Snowhobbit's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Stockholm Sweden
    Posts
    1,912

    Default Re: Jill Stein

    Quote Originally Posted by Strike For The South View Post
    Open borders and a welfare state are planks in her platform. How would this work?
    It would cause either a collapse of the welfare system or the nation defaulting on their debts after x amount of years of racking up loans. Currently in Sweden we have border controls yet we still have to finance the refugee systems with massively increasing government debt and cuts in most sectors of the welfare system. People who advocate open borders on the right wing usually want the dissolution of the welfare state. People who advocate open borders and a welfare state on the left side of the spectrum are simply financially illiterate.

  3. #3
    Member Member Tuuvi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    The wild west
    Posts
    1,416

    Default Re: Jill Stein

    Her website doesn't go into much detail, but I suppose she wants to raise taxes on corporations and the wealthy, and cut spending on prisons and the military.

  4. #4
    Banned Snowhobbit's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Stockholm Sweden
    Posts
    1,912

    Default Re: Jill Stein

    Quote Originally Posted by Tuuvi View Post
    Her website doesn't go into much detail, but I suppose she wants to raise taxes on corporations and the wealthy, and cut spending on prisons and the military.
    Even doing that will not solve the issue of welfare state+open borders. Compare US taxes on the rich with Swedish taxes on the rich. You cannot raise taxes high enough without causing the people you tax to leave. A welfare state requires a relatively wealthy society so that they can pay for the welfare state.

  5. #5
    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Taplow, UK
    Posts
    8,472

    Default Re: Jill Stein

    As the EU is finding, free movement is a lovely idea as long as everyone agrees they won't move.

    Socialism often remembers the "to each according to his needs" but forgets "from each, according to his abilities". So everyone should do work that they are able to do (and very few people are so crippled by chronic illness they can do nothing).

    Free movement will unsurprisingly end up with the wealthier countries reaching the point that people want to live there as much as they do elsewhere due to crime / overcrowding / pollution / tax being as bad as the local problems.

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
    Science flies you to the moon, religion flies you into buildings.
    "If you can't trust the local kleptocrat whom you installed by force and prop up with billions of annual dollars, who can you trust?" Lemur
    If you're not a liberal when you're 25, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative by the time you're 35, you have no brain.
    The best argument against democracy is a five minute talk with the average voter. Winston Churchill

  6. #6
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Latibulm mali regis in muris.
    Posts
    11,297

    Default Re: Jill Stein

    Quote Originally Posted by Tuuvi View Post
    Her website doesn't go into much detail, but I suppose she wants to raise taxes on corporations and the wealthy, and cut spending on prisons and the military.
    So she is yet another in the long line of those folks who believe that corporations and other businesses pay taxes? And that the wealthy will simply smile and pay more without opting out in some fashion? How quaint.
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

    "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." -- H. L. Mencken

  7. #7
    Ice stink there for a ham. Member Mystery Science Torture 3000 Champion, Mini Putt 3 Champion, Super Hacky Sack Champion, Pencak Champion, Sperm Wars Champion, Monkey Diving Champion Yoyoma1910's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Yarr me matey. I be livin on the high seas.
    Posts
    2,528

    Default Re: Jill Stein

    I pop in after all these years, just to see you're still here keeping the poor man under your thumb.

    Every man a king, but no one wears a crown. - the Kingfish

    My kingdom for a .

  8. #8
    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Albion
    Posts
    15,924
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default Re: Jill Stein

    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post
    As the EU is finding, free movement is a lovely idea as long as everyone agrees they won't move.

    Socialism often remembers the "to each according to his needs" but forgets "from each, according to his abilities". So everyone should do work that they are able to do (and very few people are so crippled by chronic illness they can do nothing).

    Free movement will unsurprisingly end up with the wealthier countries reaching the point that people want to live there as much as they do elsewhere due to crime / overcrowding / pollution / tax being as bad as the local problems.

    Problem with the EU is not people moving, it is the displacement from mass moving and settling down else where due to the economic inequality in some regions. Thing is, they would continue to move without the free access anyway, we have 200,000 Americans living in the UK for example, and we don't see people at the pickets because of them. Likewise, a lot of Brits live aboard themselves.

    A solution to this issue could be tackling inequality elsewhere in the world, so people don't have a reason to move enmass and resettle elsewhere.
    Days since the Apocalypse began
    "We are living in space-age times but there's too many of us thinking with stone-age minds" | How to spot a Humanist
    "Men of Quality do not fear Equality." | "Belief doesn't change facts. Facts, if you are reasonable, should change your beliefs."

    Member thankful for this post:

    Brenus 


  9. #9
    Member Member Greyblades's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    8,407
    Blog Entries
    2

    Default Re: Jill Stein

    Sadly as colonialism is frowned upon these days that is no longer possible to induce artificially.
    Being better than the worst does not inherently make you good. But being better than the rest lets you brag.


    Quote Originally Posted by Strike For The South View Post
    Don't be scared that you don't freak out. Be scared when you don't care about freaking out
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

  10. #10
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    15,617

    Default Re: Jill Stein

    Quote Originally Posted by Greyblades View Post
    Sadly as colonialism is frowned upon these days that is no longer possible to induce artificially.
    I agree, if only I could rule the world I could make sure everything works the way I want it to.
    We'd all be better off.
    Make me king of the world, bow before me now before it's too late!


    "Topic is tired and needs a nap." - Tosa Inu

    Member thankful for this post:

    Beskar 


  11. #11
    Member Member Greyblades's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    8,407
    Blog Entries
    2

    Default Re: Jill Stein

    Well I do enjoy being under powerful men... ahem.

    Back on topic: raising a third world nation to western levels in any reasonable amount of time requires a massive influx of capital. They wont get that for nothing; the charity we give them is basically piss in the wind as far as industrialization goes and we cant spare more without impoverishing ourselves.

    Were they to in exchange allow us to exploit the resources on their lands they are largely incapable of using themselves, well that capital would be a lot more forthcoming as we'd be getting something out of it to offset our loss; we cant sell the warm fuzzy feeling of charity but we can sell iron, copper, precious metals, cashcrops etc.

    The chinese are doing it right now, the main things keeping us from joining in is a) some of the local's unwillingness and b) our inability to admit (or in some cases concieve) that these arrangements can be, and have been, done without fucking over the natives.
    Being better than the worst does not inherently make you good. But being better than the rest lets you brag.


    Quote Originally Posted by Strike For The South View Post
    Don't be scared that you don't freak out. Be scared when you don't care about freaking out
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

  12. #12
    Member Member Tuuvi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    The wild west
    Posts
    1,416

    Default Re: Jill Stein

    Quote Originally Posted by Greyblades View Post
    Well I do enjoy being under powerful men... ahem.

    Back on topic: raising a third world nation to western levels in any reasonable amount of time requires a massive influx of capital. They wont get that for nothing; the charity we give them is basically piss in the wind as far as industrialization goes and we cant spare more without impoverishing ourselves.

    Were they to in exchange allow us to exploit the resources on their lands they are largely incapable of using themselves, well that capital would be a lot more forthcoming as we'd be getting something out of it to offset our loss; we cant sell the warm fuzzy feeling of charity but we can sell iron, copper, precious metals, cashcrops etc.

    The Chinese are doing it right now, the main things keeping us from joining in is a) some of the local's unwillingness and b) our inability to admit (or in some cases concieve) that these arrangements can be, and have been, done without fucking over the natives.
    Now that the economy has been globalized isn't this already happening to a large degree? Either way I'm skeptical that exploiting third world countries for their labor and resources will somehow lift them out of poverty, they already used to be European colonies after all.

    And besides that no one should ever be forced to accept an economic arrangement they don't want.

  13. #13
    Member Member Greyblades's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    8,407
    Blog Entries
    2

    Default Re: Jill Stein

    That would be the attitude that I was describing in my last sentance: beleiving that colonialism by definition cannot exist without systematic exploitation of the natives.

    The nations of africa used to be european colonies, then they were left to fend for themselves due to a multitude of reasosn but only a minority prospered once bereft of support. Most were half finished constructs with some of the trappings of modernity but bereft of the infrastructure to maintain it. Others hadn't been imprinted with the cultural experience and tradition needed to keep a liberal democracy intact and slumped or fell to bits.

    Global markets will exploit the resources but they will not help the people; they will pay the bare minimum in wage and tax both of which are determined by the somewhat notoriously unreliable and corrupt native governments. The power and ideals (in some cases replaced by self flagellating guilt. Hey, whatever works) of a western nation state can ensure fair wages are paid and taxes get where they are needed and not end up in the pocket of the local governer.

    Of course attempting to impose the western model upon a mostly unwilling populous would be futile; cooperation being a determining factor and invasions generally reducing such sentiment. Sure there's the odd junta that could be toppled for the appreciation of the locals but to produce the best results most of it would have to be a voluntary and temporary (though long term) return to the fold by a people willing to swallow their pride for a better standard of living for their children.

    Combine fair wages, proper use of taxation, education updates and reforms and a controlled devolution to develope cultures willing to resist dictators and corruption, and we could produce much stabler and prosperous nations. Or we could just sit back hope they do all that by themselves, maybe they'll be done in under a millenium.
    Last edited by Greyblades; 04-26-2016 at 00:17.
    Being better than the worst does not inherently make you good. But being better than the rest lets you brag.


    Quote Originally Posted by Strike For The South View Post
    Don't be scared that you don't freak out. Be scared when you don't care about freaking out
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

  14. #14
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    15,617

    Default Re: Jill Stein

    Quote Originally Posted by Greyblades View Post
    That would be the attitude that I was describing in my last sentance: beleiving that colonialism by definition cannot exist without significant exploitation of the natives.

    The nations of africa used to be european colonies, then they were left to fend for themselves due to a multitude of reasosn but only a minority prospered once bereft of support. Most were half finished constructs with some of the trappings of modernity but bereft of the infrastructure to maintain it. Others hadn't been imprinted with the cultural experience and tradition needed to keep a liberal democracy intact and slumped or fell to bits.
    Ethiopia was only very briefly colonized and seems to be a relatively functional democracy. Several other non-European countries developed or adopted democracy before we destroyed it again. Iran was a republic with elections IIRC before the British decided they'd rather have a shah because the elected government made decisions the British didn't like etc.
    Chile was a democracy before the US allegedly decided it was not a democracy to its liking and helped a dictator stage a coup and so on.
    The idea that democracy can only be spread by European export, basically through subjugation and education of the natives who cannot adapt it on their own for whatever reason is rather "racist" or condescending and disrespectful, although I don't think you meant it that way.

    And when you leave a mess behind and then advocate your half-arsed ideas, maybe it's not surprising that some people reject them because they only saw the worst of it so far.

    Quote Originally Posted by Greyblades View Post
    Global markets will exploit the resources but they will not help the people; they will pay the bare minimum in wage and tax both of which are determined by the somewhat notoriously unreliable and corrupt native governments.
    And there is nothing we can do? Long live Panama!?!


    "Topic is tired and needs a nap." - Tosa Inu

  15. #15
    Member Member Tuuvi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    The wild west
    Posts
    1,416

    Default Re: Jill Stein

    Quote Originally Posted by Greyblades View Post
    That would be the attitude that I was describing in my last sentance: beleiving that colonialism by definition cannot exist without systematic exploitation of the natives.
    The whole purpose of a colony is to extract wealth from the colony for the benefit of the colonizer isn't it? I don't see how this could be anything other than exploitative.

    The nations of africa used to be european colonies, then they were left to fend for themselves due to a multitude of reasosn but only a minority prospered once bereft of support. Most were half finished constructs with some of the trappings of modernity but bereft of the infrastructure to maintain it. Others hadn't been imprinted with the cultural experience and tradition needed to keep a liberal democracy intact and slumped or fell to bits.
    My understanding is that most former colonies fought for independence because they didn't like the way they were governed by their European overlords.

    Global markets will exploit the resources but they will not help the people; they will pay the bare minimum in wage and tax both of which are determined by the somewhat notoriously unreliable and corrupt native governments. The power and ideals (in some cases replaced by self flagellating guilt. Hey, whatever works) of a western nation state can ensure fair wages are paid and taxes get where they are needed and not end up in the pocket of the local governor.
    Like Husar mentioned Western governments have colluded to destabilize and topple governments which elect socialist politicians or attempt to nationalize resources. Another thing worth pointing out is that working conditions were as terrible in the West during the industrial revolution as they are today in the third world. Things we take for granted today like a minimum wage, the 40 hour work week, and clean and safe factories had to be fought for by labor unions.

    Governments and business elites work together to create the best environment for maximizing profits and keeping wages low is in their interest.

    Or we could just sit back hope they do all that by themselves, maybe they'll be done in under a millenium.
    I think people are perfectly capable of managing their affairs by themselves, and it would be arrogant for us to assume we know what their needs are better than they do.
    Last edited by Tuuvi; 04-26-2016 at 05:18.

  16. #16
    Senior Member Senior Member Brenus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Wokingham
    Posts
    3,523

    Default Re: Jill Stein

    "The whole purpose of a colony is to extract wealth from the colony for the benefit of the colonizer isn't it?" Not entirely. Two kind of colonisation: One as you describe (for France: Indochina), one for population (for France: Algeria, New Caledonia). The second one, to be successful, has to kill, deport or marginalise the natives... The most successful and well know samples of the second type being North and South America...
    Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. Voltaire.

    "I've been in few famous last stands, lad, and they're butcher shops. That's what Blouse's leading you into, mark my words. What'll you lot do then? We've had a few scuffles, but that's not war. Think you'll be man enough to stand, when the metal meets the meat?"
    "You did, sarge", said Polly." You said you were in few last stands."
    "Yeah, lad. But I was holding the metal"
    Sergeant Major Jackrum 10th Light Foot Infantery Regiment "Inns-and-Out"

  17. #17
    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Sydney, Australia
    Posts
    15,670

    Default Re: Jill Stein

    Third world a issue of colonialism or believing in fairy tales?

    Compare and contrast the wealth of Singapore with Malaysia, Indonesia and Brunei.
    Our genes maybe in the basement but it does not stop us chosing our point of view from the top.
    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat
    Pape for global overlord!!
    Quote Originally Posted by English assassin
    Squid sources report that scientists taste "sort of like chicken"
    Quote Originally Posted by frogbeastegg View Post
    The rest is either as average as advertised or, in the case of the missionary, disappointing.

  18. #18
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    15,617

    Default Re: Jill Stein

    Quote Originally Posted by Papewaio View Post
    Third world a issue of colonialism or believing in fairy tales?

    Compare and contrast the wealth of Singapore with Malaysia, Indonesia and Brunei.
    Or Monaco and Australia while you're at it: http://www.ifitweremyhome.com/compare/AU/MC

    Or Monaco and Germany: http://www.ifitweremyhome.com/compare/DE/MC

    Or Monaco and Singapore: http://www.ifitweremyhome.com/compare/SG/MC

    Clearly all countries would be better off if they were more like Monaco.

    Point being that small city states often fill niches that can make their relatively small population rather wealthy and that bigger countries cannot always afford to fill. Which makes the comparison somewhat unfair because these countries do not have to deal with the same issues and never had the same options.

    Look at food for example: http://www.ava.gov.sg/explore-by-sec...he-food-we-eat

    With little farming land and limited fishing grounds, Singapore imports over 90% of the food consumed in the country.
    If you import 90% of your food, that means the relatively badly paid agricultural workers are all outsourced to other countries such as Malaysia, the one you want to compare it with....

    Of course this is also true for every other country to some extent if it engages in global trade. The point being that not all countries can be like Singapore or Monaco because if all countries employed only rich people and bankers and imported 90% of their food, then who would produce all that food?


    "Topic is tired and needs a nap." - Tosa Inu

  19. #19
    Member Member Greyblades's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    8,407
    Blog Entries
    2

    Default Re: Jill Stein

    I didn't know you could get a headache from eye rolling, learn something new every day.
    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    Ethiopia was only very briefly colonized and seems to be a relatively functional democracy.
    Briefly colonized then spent 30 years under a buffoon king and 25 years a communist dictatorship. It's functionality as of now is officially democratic, though questionable in legitimacy. Sadly they are still poor and reliant on oil.

    Several other non-European countries developed or adopted democracy before we destroyed it again. Iran was a republic with elections IIRC before the British decided they'd rather have a shah because the elected government made decisions the British didn't like etc.
    Which time? When we occupied it in agreement with the Russians to end the great game, when we helped them fight off ottomans, or when the shah we imposed turned against us and didn't let us send supplies through them to the USSR when they were about to be overrun by Nazi Germany?

    Not that it matters, Iran's status was complex but it was never a colony, we didn't even pretend to be interested in uplifting them.
    Chile was a democracy before the US allegedly decided it was not a democracy to its liking and helped a dictator stage a coup and so on.
    Again, not a colony.

    The idea that democracy can only be spread by European export, basically through subjugation and education of the natives who cannot adapt it on their own for whatever reason is rather "racist" or condescending and disrespectful, although I don't think you meant it that way.
    A German thinking something racist is like a Frenchman thinking someone inferior; they do it many times a day and are often wrong.

    Undeserved jabs aside, I never said it could only be exported I said it was the fastest way to get the effect.

    By all means you can let them muddle through on their own. Let them have their religious, then national, then ethnic massacres to cultivate their own culture of telling their kids not to hate people for their god/king/race. Let them suffer under dictators kings and emperors until the breaking point and then pay the blood price of a revolution so they learn to appreciate the democracies they have.

    I am sure the fact that they came to the same conclusions through African experience instead of European education will make the mountain of corpses easier to bear.

    And when you leave a mess behind and then advocate your half-arsed ideas, maybe it's not surprising that some people reject them because they only saw the worst of it so far.
    We wouldn't have left a mess if you're fathers hadn't decided to force us to instead spend our efforts cleaning up another one of your culture shaping massacres.

    Additionally, most of them never really saw the worst. They wouldn't have stayed in the commonwealth if they had.

    And there is nothing we can do?
    Pretty much, it's out of our hands and we are too whipped to even consider making more than a token gesture in their general direction.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tuuvi View Post
    The whole purpose of a colony is to extract wealth from the colony for the benefit of the colonizer isn't it? I don't see how this could be anything other than exploitative.

    My understanding is that most former colonies fought for independence because they didn't like the way they were governed by their European overlords.
    Such a simplistic incomplete view.

    Colonization was done for many reasons and represented many things to many different people, to the businessman it was an opportunity or an investment, for the colonist it was a chance for a better life or a refuge from the last one, for the missionary it was a chance to spread the word of god or spend their lives helping people. Each nation had different reasons and ways of doing things as did each colony, each only as cruel and benevolent as the people partaking in it.

    And like those people they liberalized as time went on, to the point where near the end some of the British and French colonies were true nation building efforts. Efforts that had to be cancelled; we withdrew in a two decade collapse and attempted make stable liberal countries before what little money and enthusiasm left over from the second world war ran out. Some succeeded, many slumped some collapsed completely.


    Like Husar mentioned Western governments have colluded to destabilize and topple governments which elect socialist politicians or attempt to nationalize resources. Another thing worth pointing out is that working conditions were as terrible in the West during the industrial revolution as they are today in the third world. Things we take for granted today like a minimum wage, the 40 hour work week, and clean and safe factories had to be fought for by labor unions.
    Governments and business elites work together to create the best environment for maximizing profits and keeping wages low is in their interest.
    Your point? People are pricks, nation states are giant ones, the west have come to be pathologically obsessed with maintaining the facade of benevolence and civility, but act or not it makes them act much kinder and fairer than any nation that came before and their experiences with national development make them more effective than the young nations of Africa.

    I think people are perfectly capable of managing their affairs by themselves, and it would be arrogant for us to assume we know what their needs are better than they do.
    Arrogant, but in a lot of cases: true.
    Last edited by Greyblades; 04-26-2016 at 12:34.
    Being better than the worst does not inherently make you good. But being better than the rest lets you brag.


    Quote Originally Posted by Strike For The South View Post
    Don't be scared that you don't freak out. Be scared when you don't care about freaking out
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Member thankful for this post:



  20. #20
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    15,617

    Default Re: Jill Stein

    Quote Originally Posted by Greyblades View Post
    Which time? When we occupied it in agreement with the Russians to end the great game, when we helped them fight off ottomans, or when the shah we imposed turned against us and didn't let us send supplies through them to the USSR when they were about to be overrun by Nazi Germany?

    Not that it matters, Iran's status was complex but it was never a colony, we didn't even pretend to be interested in uplifting them.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran#Early_modern_period

    In 1951, Mohammad Mosaddegh was elected as the prime minister. He became enormously popular in Iran, after he nationalized Iran's petroleum industry and oil reserves. He was deposed in the 1953 Iranian coup d'état, an Anglo-American covert operation that marked the first time the US had overthrown a foreign government during the Cold War.[130]
    Good to know that you never wanted some countries to work though, civilized superior values at work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Greyblades View Post
    Again, not a colony.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colonial_Chile



    "Topic is tired and needs a nap." - Tosa Inu

  21. #21
    Member Member Greyblades's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    8,407
    Blog Entries
    2

    Default Re: Jill Stein

    Not an american colony, making the mention of the US backed coup moot... What was the point you wanted to make again?
    Being better than the worst does not inherently make you good. But being better than the rest lets you brag.


    Quote Originally Posted by Strike For The South View Post
    Don't be scared that you don't freak out. Be scared when you don't care about freaking out
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

  22. #22
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    15,617

    Default Re: Jill Stein

    Quote Originally Posted by Greyblades View Post
    Not an american colony, making the mention of the US backed coup moot... What was the point you wanted to make again?
    That the influence of western countries on other countries can even have detrimental effects on these countries while you seemed to be arguing that it is mostly positive. If western countries are willing to ruin other countries for their own gain, then you have to explain what they gain from making their colonies more like them. For isolated ones it may pay off to develop them further, but why would a western country build lots of industry in a colony for example if that industry would then rival the one at home?


    "Topic is tired and needs a nap." - Tosa Inu

  23. #23
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    7,575

    Default Re: Jill Stein

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    That the influence of western countries on other countries can even have detrimental effects on these countries while you seemed to be arguing that it is mostly positive. If western countries are willing to ruin other countries for their own gain, then you have to explain what they gain from making their colonies more like them. For isolated ones it may pay off to develop them further, but why would a western country build lots of industry in a colony for example if that industry would then rival the one at home?
    In the case of Sierra Leone, Britain intervened after a British officer visited the place and saw amputee children that were the result of a recent rebel operation and decided to return with troops, government backing or no government backing (our foreign minister on his visit decided to push things even further). Things aren't perfect, but at least the Leonians now have peace (which they're grateful for), and the Leonian government has been importing a British professional strata to provide expertise that the country is lacking. The country itself is, of course, the result of resettling slaves captured by the West African squadron. Could you point out where the exploitation is?

  24. #24

    Default Re: Jill Stein

    Quote Originally Posted by Greyblades
    Colonization was done for many reasons and represented many things to many different people, to the businessman it was an opportunity or an investment, for the colonist it was a chance for a better life or a refuge from the last one, for the missionary it was a chance to spread the word of god or spend their lives helping people. Each nation had different reasons and ways of doing things as did each colony, each only as cruel and benevolent as the people partaking in it.

    And like those people they liberalized as time went on, to the point where near the end some of the British and French colonies were true nation building efforts.
    Your grounded view of colonist life doesn’t change the power relations of the colonial experience. These were nation-building efforts, to some extent, that did not heed the needs of the colonized. It involved economic servitude to the motherland for the colonizer and subjugation of the private sphere. A colonist's livelihood depended/depends on the subordination of his/her counterpart. Subjugation of any form is not a true nation building effort, however cruel or benevolent the people partaking in it are. Colonial experiences intrinsically involve the robbing of dignity and self-determination, both prereqs of real nation-building.
    Last edited by AE Bravo; 04-26-2016 at 21:32.

  25. #25
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    7,575

    Default Re: Jill Stein

    Quote Originally Posted by Showtime View Post
    Your grounded view of colonist life doesn’t change the power relations of the colonial experience. These were nation-building efforts, to some extent, that did not heed the needs of the colonized. It involved economic servitude to the motherland for the colonizer and subjugation of the private sphere. A colonist's livelihood depended/depends on the subordination of his/her counterpart. Subjugation of any form is not a true nation building effort, however cruel or benevolent the people partaking in it are. Colonial experiences intrinsically involve the robbing of dignity and self-determination, both prereqs of real nation-building.
    And yet Sierra Leone and Somaliland are asking for more British involvement than we can afford, even decades after they'd had their independence. And on the other end of the prosperity scale, Hong Kongers despise the mainland Chinese and prefer the days of British governance. Even after the British had been every bit the arrogant Imperial during their days there.

  26. #26

    Default Re: Jill Stein

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    And yet Sierra Leone and Somaliland are asking for more British involvement than we can afford, even decades after they'd had their independence. And on the other end of the prosperity scale, Hong Kongers despise the mainland Chinese and prefer the days of British governance. Even after the British had been every bit the arrogant Imperial during their days there.
    Lesser evil.
    Last edited by AE Bravo; 04-27-2016 at 00:29.

  27. #27
    Member Member Tuuvi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    The wild west
    Posts
    1,416

    Default Re: Jill Stein

    Quote Originally Posted by Greyblades View Post
    Such a simplistic incomplete view.

    Colonization was done for many reasons and represented many things to many different people, to the businessman it was an opportunity or an investment, for the colonist it was a chance for a better life or a refuge from the last one, for the missionary it was a chance to spread the word of god or spend their lives helping people. Each nation had different reasons and ways of doing things as did each colony, each only as cruel and benevolent as the people partaking in it.
    Colonizing efforts were often justified as being a missionary endeavor but the main goal was to extract wealth and resources, that was what really drove European nations to establish them.

    Your point? People are pricks, nation states are giant ones, the west have come to be pathologically obsessed with maintaining the facade of benevolence and civility, but act or not it makes them act much kinder and fairer than any nation that came before and their experiences with national development make them more effective than the young nations of Africa.
    You claimed that the power and ideals of western nation states could help protect the peoples of developing countries from the exploitation of the global market, so I was demonstrating that western nation states don't care about protecting people from the global market, their goal is to make the global market more favorable towards western multi-nationals.

    Arrogant, but in a lot of cases: true.
    How so?
    Last edited by Tuuvi; 04-27-2016 at 04:50.

  28. #28
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    7,575

    Default Re: Jill Stein

    Quote Originally Posted by Tuuvi View Post
    Colonizing efforts were often justified as being a missionary endeavor but the main goal was to extract wealth and resources, that was what really drove European nations to establish them.

    You claimed that the power and ideals of western nation states could help protect the peoples of developing countries from the exploitation of the global market, so I was demonstrating that western nation states don't care about protecting people from the global market, their goal is to make the global market more favorable towards western multi-nationals.

    How so?
    See the last case of Britain treating another country like a colony.

  29. #29
    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Sydney, Australia
    Posts
    15,670

    Default Re: Jill Stein

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    Or Monaco and Australia while you're at it: http://www.ifitweremyhome.com/compare/AU/MC

    Or Monaco and Germany: http://www.ifitweremyhome.com/compare/DE/MC

    Or Monaco and Singapore: http://www.ifitweremyhome.com/compare/SG/MC

    Clearly all countries would be better off if they were more like Monaco.

    Point being that small city states often fill niches that can make their relatively small population rather wealthy and that bigger countries cannot always afford to fill. Which makes the comparison somewhat unfair because these countries do not have to deal with the same issues and never had the same options.

    Look at food for example: http://www.ava.gov.sg/explore-by-sec...he-food-we-eat



    If you import 90% of your food, that means the relatively badly paid agricultural workers are all outsourced to other countries such as Malaysia, the one you want to compare it with....

    Of course this is also true for every other country to some extent if it engages in global trade. The point being that not all countries can be like Singapore or Monaco because if all countries employed only rich people and bankers and imported 90% of their food, then who would produce all that food?
    Compare Brunei's fortunes as it has gone more fundamentalist.

    Or Pakistan vs India vs China.

    Chose a country and if it has vast mineral and oil wealth the poorer the median person, the less is invested into education and more likely a fundamentalist dogma is used to keep the poor in check. Take away easy wealth and the countries that do well have more money invested in education, less fundamentalists and generally less corruption/oligarchs. There are exceptions to every rule.
    Our genes maybe in the basement but it does not stop us chosing our point of view from the top.
    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat
    Pape for global overlord!!
    Quote Originally Posted by English assassin
    Squid sources report that scientists taste "sort of like chicken"
    Quote Originally Posted by frogbeastegg View Post
    The rest is either as average as advertised or, in the case of the missionary, disappointing.

  30. #30
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    15,617

    Default Re: Jill Stein

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    In the case of Sierra Leone, Britain intervened after a British officer visited the place and saw amputee children that were the result of a recent rebel operation and decided to return with troops, government backing or no government backing (our foreign minister on his visit decided to push things even further). Things aren't perfect, but at least the Leonians now have peace (which they're grateful for), and the Leonian government has been importing a British professional strata to provide expertise that the country is lacking. The country itself is, of course, the result of resettling slaves captured by the West African squadron. Could you point out where the exploitation is?
    http://en.internationalism.org/wr/235_sleone.htm

    Quote Originally Posted by Papewaio View Post
    Compare Brunei's fortunes as it has gone more fundamentalist.

    Or Pakistan vs India vs China.

    Chose a country and if it has vast mineral and oil wealth the poorer the median person, the less is invested into education and more likely a fundamentalist dogma is used to keep the poor in check. Take away easy wealth and the countries that do well have more money invested in education, less fundamentalists and generally less corruption/oligarchs. There are exceptions to every rule.
    That may well be, nothing to do with Britain making its colonies so great then I guess.

    If you look at India vs China, it seems like China is quite a bit better off than India. Despite being a communist country and not having been a British colony the way India was. http://www.ifitweremyhome.com/compare/CN/IN

    It's just way too simplistic to say colonialism is usually a force of improvement or whatever exactly the original point was.
    Last edited by Husar; 04-27-2016 at 14:10.


    "Topic is tired and needs a nap." - Tosa Inu

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO