Israel Thread

**AE Bravo** · 05-09-2016, 22:23

By international and middle eastern standards, Arab countries are better at tourism, immigration, and commercial policy. Israel takes the cake in terms of military and technology due to zealous western backing since its creation.

**Pannonian** · 05-09-2016, 23:38

Originally Posted by Showtime

By international and middle eastern standards, Arab countries are better at tourism, immigration, and commercial policy. Israel takes the cake in terms of military and technology due to zealous western backing since its creation.

Funnily enough, most westerners don't have these things in mind when they think of the key qualities of civilisation, or what the difference is between a good society and a bad society. Britain today is a considerably better place than the Britain of C18, and no one would say it's because of better tourism, immigration and commercial policy.

**AE Bravo** · 05-10-2016, 01:19

Originally Posted by Pannonian

Funnily enough, most westerners don't have these things in mind when they think of the key qualities of civilisation, or what the difference is between a good society and a bad society. Britain today is a considerably better place than the Britain of C18, and no one would say it's because of better tourism, immigration and commercial policy.

Just because you personally disregard them, doesn't mean they're not key qualities. What are the key qualities of Israel?

And why are all your posts so bigoted like your way is the end all be all, the blueprint to heaven or some isht..

**Pannonian** · 05-10-2016, 01:32

Originally Posted by Showtime

Just because you personally disregard them, doesn't mean they're not key qualities. What are the key qualities of Israel?

And why are all your posts so bigoted like your way is the end all be all, the blueprint to heaven or some isht..

There are things like health policy, education policy, and other stuff. But underpinning them is social policy, or what is necessary to bring about a working liberal democracy. Israel is some way behind the west in this, but is way, way ahead of the vast majority of the middle east, by which I mean not just the geographical region, but also all Muslim countries.

And yes, I do believe in liberal democracy as the blueprint of what I would call civilisation. Given that you apparently live in the west, would you prefer to give up things like freedom and democracy to live in the Caliphate? After all, the society's qualities that I value aren't the be all and end all of heaven on earth, or so you tell me.

**AE Bravo** · 05-10-2016, 02:03

How on earth did you conclude that? How many Arab countries have any or the same degree of institutionalized inequality, apartheid, outright racism against blacks, and same atrocities on civilians directly by the state military under its belt? This is far from being close to a liberal democracy. No society that prevents a segment of its population from building their own businesses in acquired settlements, based on racial reasons, is to be considered such. Some are Arab-Israelis that have no quarrel with Israel, see how they’re treated.

So there are no civilized societies besides the west? What if I lived in east Asian countries?

**Pannonian** · 05-10-2016, 02:21

Originally Posted by Showtime

How on earth did you conclude that? How many Arab countries have any or the same degree of institutionalized inequality, apartheid, outright racism against blacks, and same atrocities on civilians directly by the state military under its belt? This is far from being close to a liberal democracy. No society that prevents a segment of its population from building their own businesses in acquired settlements, based on racial reasons, is to be considered such. Some are Arab-Israelis that have no quarrel with Israel, see how they’re treated.

So there are no civilized societies besides the west? What if I lived in east Asian countries?

I refer you to the horror stories coming out of Qatar. And that's just the country focused on because of the world cup, and seemingly Saudi and other countries in the region are just as bad. Israel's practical apartheid is repugnant to us, but in comparison with the likes of Qatar and Saudi, and they're among the richer Muslim countries (and thus should be able to afford better social policies), they're angels.

If you lived in east Asian countries, you'd see that they value westernisation as the acme of civilisation. Even if they don't adopt democracy, they certainly adopt liberalism.

**Hooahguy** · 05-10-2016, 02:36

Originally Posted by Showtime

How on earth did you conclude that? How many Arab countries have any or the same degree of institutionalized inequality, apartheid, outright racism against blacks, and same atrocities on civilians directly by the state military under its belt? This is far from being close to a liberal democracy. No society that prevents a segment of its population from building their own businesses in acquired settlements, based on racial reasons, is to be considered such. Some are Arab-Israelis that have no quarrel with Israel, see how they’re treated.

If you honestly think this then you clearly aren't paying attention to anything else which is going on anywhere in the Middle East besides Israel. Israel is certainly guilty of the many crimes that you mention to various degrees but to say that the surrounding Arab nations are any better just means to me that you arent paying attention or willfully looking the other direction to maintain your beliefs.

**AE Bravo** · 05-10-2016, 03:20

Originally Posted by Pannonian

If you lived in east Asian countries, you'd see that they value westernisation as the acme of civilisation. Even if they don't adopt democracy, they certainly adopt liberalism.

They value westernization as the acme of civilization? Doubt it. Liberalism doesn't belong to you.

Originally Posted by Pannonian

I refer you to the horror stories coming out of Qatar. And that's just the country focused on because of the world cup, and seemingly Saudi and other countries in the region are just as bad. Israel's practical apartheid is repugnant to us, but in comparison with the likes of Qatar and Saudi, and they're among the richer Muslim countries (and thus should be able to afford better social policies), they're angels.

Racist laws and war crimes are different. Migrant deaths in those countries are crimes against humanity for sure, but you only named two Arab countries. Saudi Arabia can be compared now due to the war on Yemen, but I don’t see how any of them are “just as bad” besides western countries. UK can’t even declare the war on Iraq illegal, or acknowledge its warcrimes. If you really believe Qatar is more criminal than Israel than…

Originally Posted by Hooahguy

If you honestly think this then you clearly aren't paying attention to anything else which is going on anywhere

How many stable countries in the ME come close? It's never a good sign when a liberal democracy is being compared to Saudi Arabia, who have similar policies for their eastern provinces. So no, Israel is not a liberal democracy. Funnily enough Iran is probably more liberal in some respects.