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  1. #1

    Default Re: What would non-anti-semitic criticism of Israel look like?

    How on earth did you conclude that? How many Arab countries have any or the same degree of institutionalized inequality, apartheid, outright racism against blacks, and same atrocities on civilians directly by the state military under its belt? This is far from being close to a liberal democracy. No society that prevents a segment of its population from building their own businesses in acquired settlements, based on racial reasons, is to be considered such. Some are Arab-Israelis that have no quarrel with Israel, see how they’re treated.

    So there are no civilized societies besides the west? What if I lived in east Asian countries?

  2. #2
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: What would non-anti-semitic criticism of Israel look like?

    Quote Originally Posted by Showtime View Post
    How on earth did you conclude that? How many Arab countries have any or the same degree of institutionalized inequality, apartheid, outright racism against blacks, and same atrocities on civilians directly by the state military under its belt? This is far from being close to a liberal democracy. No society that prevents a segment of its population from building their own businesses in acquired settlements, based on racial reasons, is to be considered such. Some are Arab-Israelis that have no quarrel with Israel, see how they’re treated.

    So there are no civilized societies besides the west? What if I lived in east Asian countries?
    I refer you to the horror stories coming out of Qatar. And that's just the country focused on because of the world cup, and seemingly Saudi and other countries in the region are just as bad. Israel's practical apartheid is repugnant to us, but in comparison with the likes of Qatar and Saudi, and they're among the richer Muslim countries (and thus should be able to afford better social policies), they're angels.

    If you lived in east Asian countries, you'd see that they value westernisation as the acme of civilisation. Even if they don't adopt democracy, they certainly adopt liberalism.

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    Stranger in a strange land Moderator Hooahguy's Avatar
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    Default Re: What would non-anti-semitic criticism of Israel look like?

    Quote Originally Posted by Showtime View Post
    How on earth did you conclude that? How many Arab countries have any or the same degree of institutionalized inequality, apartheid, outright racism against blacks, and same atrocities on civilians directly by the state military under its belt? This is far from being close to a liberal democracy. No society that prevents a segment of its population from building their own businesses in acquired settlements, based on racial reasons, is to be considered such. Some are Arab-Israelis that have no quarrel with Israel, see how they’re treated.


    If you honestly think this then you clearly aren't paying attention to anything else which is going on anywhere in the Middle East besides Israel. Israel is certainly guilty of the many crimes that you mention to various degrees but to say that the surrounding Arab nations are any better just means to me that you arent paying attention or willfully looking the other direction to maintain your beliefs.
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  4. #4

    Default Re: What would non-anti-semitic criticism of Israel look like?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian
    If you lived in east Asian countries, you'd see that they value westernisation as the acme of civilisation. Even if they don't adopt democracy, they certainly adopt liberalism.
    They value westernization as the acme of civilization? Doubt it. Liberalism doesn't belong to you.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian
    I refer you to the horror stories coming out of Qatar. And that's just the country focused on because of the world cup, and seemingly Saudi and other countries in the region are just as bad. Israel's practical apartheid is repugnant to us, but in comparison with the likes of Qatar and Saudi, and they're among the richer Muslim countries (and thus should be able to afford better social policies), they're angels.
    Racist laws and war crimes are different. Migrant deaths in those countries are crimes against humanity for sure, but you only named two Arab countries. Saudi Arabia can be compared now due to the war on Yemen, but I don’t see how any of them are “just as bad” besides western countries. UK can’t even declare the war on Iraq illegal, or acknowledge its warcrimes. If you really believe Qatar is more criminal than Israel than…
    Quote Originally Posted by Hooahguy
    If you honestly think this then you clearly aren't paying attention to anything else which is going on anywhere
    How many stable countries in the ME come close? It's never a good sign when a liberal democracy is being compared to Saudi Arabia, who have similar policies for their eastern provinces. So no, Israel is not a liberal democracy. Funnily enough Iran is probably more liberal in some respects.
    Last edited by AE Bravo; 05-10-2016 at 03:22.

  5. #5
    Stranger in a strange land Moderator Hooahguy's Avatar
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    Default Re: What would non-anti-semitic criticism of Israel look like?

    Quote Originally Posted by Showtime View Post
    How many stable countries in the ME come close? It's never a good sign when a liberal democracy is being compared to Saudi Arabia, who have similar policies for their eastern provinces. So no, Israel is not a liberal democracy. Funnily enough Iran is probably more liberal in some respects.
    You're the one who is comparing Israel to the surrounding states and saying that the surrounding states are better for human rights. And please, tell me where Iran is more liberal. Again, not excusing any of the crimes Israel has done but I think you are being overly selective with your criticisms.

    Also why don't you look up how Bahrain handled the Arab Spring in 2011.
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    Default Re: What would non-anti-semitic criticism of Israel look like?

    Never said that. I said they’re less racist and they’re less murderous, often because their regimes are incapable of being so as much as Israel.

    When was the last time Iran launched a war? 1/3 of Israel’s citizens can’t vote right? Everyone in Iran can including Iranian Jews. Seems like religious freedom is worse in Israel, and Iran is less genocidal. They only talk about it.

    Compare how Bahrain handled the Arab Spring to how Israel handled ragtag resistance launching firecrackers. Look at the numbers.

  7. #7
    Stranger in a strange land Moderator Hooahguy's Avatar
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    Default Re: What would non-anti-semitic criticism of Israel look like?

    Quote Originally Posted by Showtime View Post
    Never said that. I said they’re less racist and they’re less murderous, often because their regimes are incapable of being so as much as Israel.
    Soooooo if they are less racist and less murderous, they are better in the realm of human rights. That is you are saying. And how are they less capable of being murderous? Just look at Assad in Syria now. Are you saying his crimes arent as bad as Israels?

    When was the last time Iran launched a war? 1/3 of Israel’s citizens can’t vote right? Everyone in Iran can including Iranian Jews. Seems like religious freedom is worse in Israel, and Iran is less genocidal. They only talk about it.
    You do realize that Iranian soldiers are directly involved in Syria's civil war, right? If you studied Iranian foreign policy even a little bit you would understand that while they might not be starting wars they certainly participate in them. Like in Yemen. Iraq. Syria. Afghanistan to a limited extent. I will agree, lack of voting rights for such a large chunk is criminal. But on the other hand, lets not pretend that Iran is a shrine of voting rights. The 2009 Green Movement didnt happen for nothing. And if you think that religious minorities in Iran have much in the way of religious freedom you arent doing any research at all into what religious minorities go through in Iran.

    Compare how Bahrain handled the Arab Spring to how Israel handled ragtag resistance launching firecrackers. Look at the numbers.
    Firecrackers which kill people. Im not excusing Israel for being heavy handed in Gaza (frankly its a disgrace how Israel handles Gaza) but lets not pretend that these "firecrackers" arent deadly, nor would I call Hamas resistance ragtag. Ragtag resistance doesn't inflict that many casualties on the IDF, an army renowned for being rather overly cautious when it comes to friendly casualties.

    Also why dont we compare military operations with one another instead of comparing a military operation with a crackdown on protesters? According to the UN, 12,000 Yemeni civilians have been killed by the Saudi-led coalition so its not like anyone else in the region is in any way better.
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    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: What would non-anti-semitic criticism of Israel look like?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hooahguy View Post
    Soooooo if they are less racist and less murderous, they are better in the realm of human rights. That is you are saying. And how are they less capable of being murderous? Just look at Assad in Syria now. Are you saying his crimes arent as bad as Israels?


    You do realize that Iranian soldiers are directly involved in Syria's civil war, right? If you studied Iranian foreign policy even a little bit you would understand that while they might not be starting wars they certainly participate in them. Like in Yemen. Iraq. Syria. Afghanistan to a limited extent. I will agree, lack of voting rights for such a large chunk is criminal. But on the other hand, lets not pretend that Iran is a shrine of voting rights. The 2009 Green Movement didnt happen for nothing. And if you think that religious minorities in Iran have much in the way of religious freedom you arent doing any research at all into what religious minorities go through in Iran.


    Firecrackers which kill people. Im not excusing Israel for being heavy handed in Gaza (frankly its a disgrace how Israel handles Gaza) but lets not pretend that these "firecrackers" arent deadly, nor would I call Hamas resistance ragtag. Ragtag resistance doesn't inflict that many casualties on the IDF, an army renowned for being rather overly cautious when it comes to friendly casualties.

    Also why dont we compare military operations with one another instead of comparing a military operation with a crackdown on protesters? According to the UN, 12,000 Yemeni civilians have been killed by the Saudi-led coalition so its not like anyone else in the region is in any way better.
    Israel are bad but the other countries are worse. Ranging from slightly worse in the best cases, to considerably worse in most of them.

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    Post Re: What would non-anti-semitic criticism of Israel look like?

    Quote Originally Posted by Showtime View Post
    Never said that. I said they’re less racist and they’re less murderous, often because their regimes are incapable of being so as much as Israel.

    When was the last time Iran launched a war? 1/3 of Israel’s citizens can’t vote right? Everyone in Iran can including Iranian Jews. Seems like religious freedom is worse in Israel, and Iran is less genocidal. They only talk about it.

    Compare how Bahrain handled the Arab Spring to how Israel handled ragtag resistance launching firecrackers. Look at the numbers.
    Iran is not an Arab state.
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    Default Re: What would non-anti-semitic criticism of Israel look like?

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    And where in this is the understanding you have for the Arab reaction? Do Palestinians not live in constant fear?
    I don't know. If you initiate violence you WILL live in constant fear of retaliation. But I don't feel sorry for those who e. g. attack civilians with a knife and then vanish into the thickly populated neighborhood making its denizens live in constant fear of retaliation from Israelis or of being branded traitors if they deliver the perpetrator to the police.

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    I don't support it in either case, I brought it up because you seemed to be finding excuses for the Israeli occupations.
    Yet the comparison was lame.

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