Israel Thread

[Gilrandir]

So you're saying that if the arabs retaliate against the terrorist jews, the terrorist jews have a right to be angry over the retaliation?
Just like a murderer has the right to be angry over and retaliate for his imprisonment?

Imprisonment and murder to retaliate for it are somehow different.

But as for Arabs and Jews, I condemn both terrorists, while you sound like you feel for Arabs only.

How many jews were forced to go live in that country where they have to endure all this fear? Are you saying they couldn't know in advance that going to live in Israel would come with some dangers? And how does having fear excuse throwing rocks at children? Are arab children scary? Natural born terrorists?

A nation living in constant fear sometimes sees dangers where there isn't. But this is the price they have to willingly pay for surviving. Sometimes it hurts the innocent on both sides (I remember about a couple of months ago there was a ruckus about knife-armed terrorists and once on a false suspicion a crowd lynched a jew). But it is collateral damage which makes people (including me) sorry, but seldom goes further than that; much like MH 17 - in spite of all the evidence pointing Russiawards Europeans seem ready to forget about it and not press any charges. Even the Netherlands whose citizens were most numerous on board the plane indirectly supported Russia having voted at the referendum the way Russia cheered at.

If that is not meant to say everything they do is okay, then what does it say? Maybe you need to be a bit more precise.

It was an attempt at explanation, not a statement of support. Just like you offer plausible (as you believe) reasons why Russia annexed Crimea - does it mean you support it? Although I don't know - perhaps you really do. Not me in case of Israel.

Ukrainians said very mean, fear-inducing things about Russians, "A country which lives in the perpetual state of alert (or war, for a change) is not likely to act differently, talk differently or vote differently.".

If Russia is living in the state of alert (which has become acute right after the Crimea adventure), it is induced from within employing the rhetoric of a besieged fortress. In a cleft stick of their own cutting.

I thought we have been through with it. But if you want, let's do it again - those things were said AFTER Putin moved into the Crimea. But even with those things said - Ukrainians said them IN THEIR OWN COUNTRY never DOING anything nasty to Russia or in Russia, voicing NO PLANS TO DESTROY Russia. Can we say the same about Arabs? So, again - flawed comparison.

[Husar]

But as for Arabs and Jews, I condemn both terrorists, while you sound like you feel for Arabs only.

Actually you sounded like you cared for the Israelis only, maybe that is the problem here.

A nation living in constant fear sometimes sees dangers where there isn't. But this is the price they have to willingly pay for surviving. Sometimes it hurts the innocent on both sides (I remember about a couple of months ago there was a ruckus about knife-armed terrorists and once on a false suspicion a crowd lynched a jew). But it is collateral damage which makes people (including me) sorry, but seldom goes further than that; much like MH 17 - in spite of all the evidence pointing Russiawards Europeans seem ready to forget about it and not press any charges. Even the Netherlands whose citizens were most numerous on board the plane indirectly supported Russia having voted at the referendum the way Russia cheered at.

And where in this is the understanding you have for the Arab reaction? Do Palestinians not live in constant fear?

It was an attempt at explanation, not a statement of support. Just like you offer plausible (as you believe) reasons why Russia annexed Crimea - does it mean you support it? Although I don't know - perhaps you really do. Not me in case of Israel.

I don't support it in either case, I brought it up because you seemed to be finding excuses for the Israeli occupations.

I thought we have been through with it. But if you want, let's do it again - [...]

Nono, we are, thank you very much.

[Fragony]

M17 has nothing to do with that referendum and why people voted no, completily seperated issues

[AE Bravo]

Human rights is a super broad category. The things you mentioned fall under this super broad category.

I stated why Israel is not the best at human rights. There are a bunch of countries that can be considered more “civilized” with more harmonious societies despite being a bit more conservative.

So you are insinuating that Assad has little control over his own military? I find that very hard to believe. And his war crimes are not limited to the chemical attacks as you also have the barrel bombs and the general targeting of civilians by loyalist forces.

Has little control over his country. Syria is a failed state, there’s no comparison and all this comes with the territory, it’s beyond control especially with the amount of countries sabotaging that control from the beginning. Every time states start to show little respect for another's sovereignty expect this to happen.

Permission to help prop up the rather murderous Assad regime.

As if that’s any better than propping up rebels with state-threatening agendas? Murderous or not, objectively, Iran has permission from the legitimate government, so their intervention is lawful.

And arms the Taliban at the same time.

To fight Daesh. They have a streak of successful foreign policy initiatives so it could work. They also share borders with all these countries so there’s a higher risk factor for them, unlike the US. You have to understand where they're coming from.

And arms Shia militias who are now accused of war crimes against Sunnis in Iraq. I will say that Iran is overall doing good now in Iraq, but Iran is no saint here. And dont forget that during the Iraq War, Iran was arming the insurgency.

They also share borders and were at war with Iraq for eight years so they have their reasons. There's a legit stake in this for them.

I dunno, arming rebels seems to be a form of involvement. Maybe not troops on the ground but they certainly are involved.

US funded Daesh before it became Daesh just so it could bring down Assad. Iranians don’t support a seizure of Yemen’s government and made the rebels announce a powersharing plan before Saudis went apeshit. You’ll see how much the Saudis will regret this entire thing, they’re trying to pull out without losing face right now.

Name the ways they are more liberal, besides voting rights (which I will agree with you on). And just because they dont start wars doesnt make a country automatically have a sound foreign policy. Lots of factors go into how to evaluate a foreign policy, not just if they start wars or not.

There’s a lot of ethnic tension in Iran, but the religious freedom is better than in Israel believe it or not. They have a more reasonable foreign policy than the US and allies, this is pretty clear. Starting wars is a big deal too, it should tell you that Iran is not the cause of regional instability when most are guilty of this.

You say that, but your previous posts seem to say the opposite.

Where did I say that Israel is the worst in the ME? My problem is with the idea that it’s slightly better than the rest.

[Hooahguy]

I stated why Israel is not the best at human rights. There are a bunch of countries that can be considered more “civilized” with more harmonious societies despite being a bit more conservative.

Name them.

Has little control over his country. Syria is a failed state, there’s no comparison and all this comes with the territory, it’s beyond control especially with the amount of countries sabotaging that control from the beginning. Every time states start to show little respect for another's sovereignty expect this to happen.

Thats not what Im saying. Yeah, Assad has lost control of large swaths of Syria. But I find it very doubtful that all of those major war crimes perpetrated by the Assad loyalists were done without the knowledge and approval of the man himself.

As if that’s any better than propping up rebels with state-threatening agendas? Murderous or not, objectively, Iran has permission from the legitimate government, so their intervention is lawful.

I didnt say their intervention was unlawful. Just that this intervention isnt necessarily a good thing.

To fight Daesh. They have a streak of successful foreign policy initiatives so it could work. They also share borders with all these countries so there’s a higher risk factor for them, unlike the US. You have to understand where they're coming from.

Iran was helping the Taliban well before Daesh came out. Im not saying Iran should not have gotten involved, they absolutely have a right to be concerned about unstable countries around them such as Iraq and Afghanistan.

They also share borders and were at war with Iraq for eight years so they have their reasons. There's a legit stake in this for them.

Yeah, and when the US and allies were in Iraq the Iranians were funding and supplying insurgents fighting the government. Dont kid yourself into thinking Iran is some sort of benevolent leader in the region.

US funded Daesh before it became Daesh just so it could bring down Assad.

Citation needed.

There’s a lot of ethnic tension in Iran, but the religious freedom is better than in Israel believe it or not. They have a more reasonable foreign policy than the US and allies, this is pretty clear. Starting wars is a big deal too, it should tell you that Iran is not the cause of regional instability when most are guilty of this.

Not really. If you arent Muslim, Zoroastrian, Jewish, or Christian then your faith isnt sanctioned and is not protected. I would say religious freedom is roughly equal to Israels.

Also Iran funds and arms such terror groups such as Hebollah and Hamas, so while they might not be the root cause of instability, they certainly are fanning flames.

Where did I say that Israel is the worst in the ME? My problem is with the idea that it’s slightly better than the rest.

Its hard to read your posts and conclude anything besides the idea that you think that Israel is at least among the worst in the region. Comments like this:

How many Arab countries have any or the same degree of institutionalized inequality, apartheid, outright racism against blacks, and same atrocities on civilians directly by the state military under its belt?

[AE Bravo]

Name them.

Jordan, Morocco, Kuwait, Tunisia, UAE, Oman, Algeria. They all have their deficiencies, and to say Israel is totally better is subjective at the very least. Most, if not all, of the listed countries have never invaded others. Oman and Tunisia have always been neutral.

Thats not what Im saying. Yeah, Assad has lost control of large swaths of Syria. But I find it very doubtful that all of those major war crimes perpetrated by the Assad loyalists were done without the knowledge and approval of the man himself.

I didnt say their intervention was unlawful. Just that this intervention isnt necessarily a good thing.

Fact is he’s fighting violent totalitarian movements that are not internationally recognized but supported anyway. Whether they had approval or not we can’t say for sure.

Only time will tell, one of the key qualities of their foreign policy is that they handle their business legally. This is what makes them better than the west in that department.

Yeah, and when the US and allies were in Iraq the Iranians were funding and supplying insurgents fighting the government. Dont kid yourself into thinking Iran is some sort of benevolent leader in the region.

They’re against illegal forced occupation, so they fund resistance. Those groups killing Sunnis are disgusting, but when the US stormed in it was open season, Iran won over most Iraqi people.

Citation needed.

https://www.judicialwatch.org/wp-con...-version11.pdf

Look at page 3 for context and then scroll down to #8 C. for the zinger.

Not really. If you arent Muslim, Zoroastrian, Jewish, or Christian then your faith isnt sanctioned and is not protected. I would say religious freedom is roughly equal to Israels.

Also Iran funds and arms such terror groups such as Hebollah and Hamas, so while they might not be the root cause of instability, they certainly are fanning flames.

Do all religions and groups have representation in Israeli politics?

I understand that these may be terror groups to you, but keep in mind they’re resistance movements, and Iran is all for that as it’s against launching wars on other countries. I agree they’re fanning flames, but Hamas and Hezbollah reacted to invaders. Just because they're listed as terrorists by the west and its allies doesn't make it so for everybody else.

Its hard to read your posts and conclude anything besides the idea that you think that Israel is at least among the worst in the region. Comments like this:

Israel has atrocities unique to Israel, and I don’t think it’s fair to say that it’s superior everyone else. It’s kind of offensive because most ME countries are painted with the same brush, but I believe they hold their own just like Israel does in other areas. To say Israel is better than the rest just for being a democracy is ill-informed, and a part of the problem. Don't forget that Israel regularly does stuff that is labelled illegal by the international community like land seizures and invasions, while Saudi Arabia is mostly guilty of the treatment of its own people.

[Hooahguy]

Jordan, Morocco, Kuwait, Tunisia, UAE, Oman, Algeria. They all have their deficiencies, and to say Israel is totally better is subjective at the very least. Most, if not all, of the listed countries have never invaded others. Oman and Tunisia have always been neutral.

Well, Jordan did invade someone. Israel, in 1948. And then they fought again in 1967. After which minority Jewish populations in many of the countries you listed were persecuted, set upon by mobs, or outright kicked out.

And bear in mind when we say "better" we are arguing "a tiny bit better." Nowhere are we excusing Israel's (many) crimes. Besides why are these countries consistently rated lower in the realm of human rights by various organizations such as Freedom House and Human Rights Watch.

Fact is he’s fighting violent totalitarian movements that are not internationally recognized but supported anyway. Whether they had approval or not we can’t say for sure.

You realize that Assad is also a violent totalitarian regime right? If it wasnt done with his approval he certainly hasnt said anything to make anyone think otherwise.

Only time will tell, one of the key qualities of their foreign policy is that they handle their business legally. This is what makes them better than the west in that department.

Sure, besides their funding of groups who engage in terrorist activities.

They’re against illegal forced occupation, so they fund resistance. Those groups killing Sunnis are disgusting, but when the US stormed in it was open season, Iran won over most Iraqi people.

Ok, so because Iran wants a stable neighbor out of Iraq, why would they fund insurgents fighting against the government that the US was trying to help?

https://www.judicialwatch.org/wp-con...-version11.pdf

Look at page 3 for context and then scroll down to #8 C. for the zinger.

You do realize this is just a report, not a paper outlining policy, theres no credible evidence that the US funded ISIS. If there was, it would be the scandal of the century, and it would be all over the news and whatnot. Which is why this "smoking gun" is just an illusion.

Do all religions and groups have representation in Israeli politics?

Political representation doesnt automatically mean equality. For example, in Iran, Jews are barred from a lot of government positions. Is that religious freedom? A token seat in parliament is hardly true representation anyways. What religious freedom means is that any religion can practice openly and freely in a country.

I understand that these may be terror groups to you, but keep in mind they’re resistance movements, and Iran is all for that as it’s against launching wars on other countries. I agree they’re fanning flames, but Hamas and Hezbollah reacted to invaders. Just because they're listed as terrorists by the west and its allies doesn't make it so for everybody else.

Ah yes, such great acts of resistance such as the 1994 bombing of a Jewish center in Argentina where 85 people were killed. Totally resistance, not terror. Totally.

Israel has atrocities unique to Israel, and I don’t think it’s fair to say that it’s superior everyone else. It’s kind of offensive because most ME countries are painted with the same brush, but I believe they hold their own just like Israel does in other areas. To say Israel is better than the rest just for being a democracy is ill-informed, and a part of the problem. Don't forget that Israel regularly does stuff that is labelled illegal by the international community like land seizures and invasions, while Saudi Arabia is mostly guilty of the treatment of its own people.

Again, nobody is arguing that Israel is anywhere close to being an angel. Hell, I will be the first to condemn how Israel treats Palestinians, steals land for settlements, indiscriminate bombing of Gaza, and the list goes on. My argument is that it is slightly better, in the sense that you can be openly gay without government persecution, women have full rights, there is freedom of the press, etc. Granted, in some of these areas these freedoms are being eroded such as freedom of the press.