Israel Thread

[AE Bravo]

And bear in mind when we say "better" we are arguing "a tiny bit better." Nowhere are we excusing Israel's (many) crimes. Besides why are these countries consistently rated lower in the realm of human rights by various organizations such as Freedom House and Human Rights Watch.

That’s true, but Jordan isn’t an apartheid state, probably more free than Israel for everybody living there. It’s also worth noting that this is around the time that Israel, with their phalangist allies, targeted Palestinian refugee camps. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_...atila_massacre

You realize that Assad is also a violent totalitarian regime right? If it wasnt done with his approval he certainly hasnt said anything to make anyone think otherwise.

There’s no need to say anything, he has been constantly demonized even before he was as big of an asshole as he is now, just for taking a stance. You’d be surprised how free pre-war Syria was, you could be openly atheist and even write a book about it. Does Netanyahu not deserve to be treated similarly? Why isn't he demonized?

Sure, besides their funding of groups who engage in terrorist activities.

Less destructive than US and allies in that department as well.

Ok, so because Iran wants a stable neighbor out of Iraq, why would they fund insurgents fighting against the government that the US was trying to help?

At the end of the day the Quds Force and the CIA had the same plan for Iraq's government, they both were responsible for placing a war criminal as its president.

You do realize this is just a report, not a paper outlining policy, theres no credible evidence that the US funded ISIS. If there was, it would be the scandal of the century, and it would be all over the news and whatnot. Which is why this "smoking gun" is just an illusion.

Of course there’s little proof that they funded them, but they obviously knew about it and went along with it to pull the rug from under a once stable Syrian government.

Political representation doesnt automatically mean equality. For example, in Iran, Jews are barred from a lot of government positions. Is that religious freedom? A token seat in parliament is hardly true representation anyways. What religious freedom means is that any religion can practice openly and freely in a country.

Token or not, they have a multi religious and multiethnic military and political system. Shia Islam is the official state religion, and everything else including Sunni Islam is relegated. Still, equality in Iran is better because they have a more inclusive society. How is it listed as "free" in Freedom House when 1/3 of the population can't vote based on their ethnicity? Should be "partially free," not free.

Ah yes, such great acts of resistance such as the 1994 bombing of a Jewish center in Argentina where 85 people were killed. Totally resistance, not terror. Totally.

Gonna have to agree to disagree, Hezbollah’s involvement is totally up for debate.

Again, nobody is arguing that Israel is anywhere close to being an angel. Hell, I will be the first to condemn how Israel treats Palestinians, steals land for settlements, indiscriminate bombing of Gaza, and the list goes on. My argument is that it is slightly better, in the sense that you can be openly gay without government persecution, women have full rights, there is freedom of the press, etc. Granted, in some of these areas these freedoms are being eroded such as freedom of the press.

These are all admirable traits of Israeli society, but what do those rights mean when they were built on the backs of people whose self-determination was taken away from them? It’s as much a dictatorship as a lot of its neighbors, to people that are under its occupation. Israel is an apartheid state, and to say it’s any better than the likes of Tunisia or even the monarchies is not accurate.

[HopAlongBunny]

A critique of Israel that is non-anti-semitic cannot exist at present. The label "anti-semitic" is used to flag critiques as outside the universe of discourse; all criticism of Israel is anti-semitic; therefore outside the universe of discourse.
That's just the way things are, independent of the quality/veracity of any such critique.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Necessary_Illusions

[Fragony]

Just curious, why do people who call a state an apartheid state when it's basicly nothing more than a admittingly apartheid society. I wouldn't use that word in any case,it's really off imho

[Kralizec]

Just curious, why do people who call a state an apartheid state when it's basicly nothing more than a admittingly apartheid society. I wouldn't use that word in any case,it's really off imho

The argument is basicly that Israels treatment of the Palestinians is similar to the way South Africa treated its black people. Under Apartheid, the official position was that black and coloured people weren't citizens of South Africa. Instead, they were citizens of their own governments, which also had small plots of territory. It was called the Homeland system. The "black homelands" were actually a farce, basically puppets of South Africa, and were recognised by no other country.

Most black people had no meaningful job prospects in their "homelands" and had no choice but to seek jobs for South African companies, often even on the territory of "real" South Africa. They were considered foreign workers, and had virtually no protection under the law.
In Israel/Palestine the Palestinians often have a somewhat similar postion, being forced to work for Israeli companies (often settler colonies). I think the comparison is flawed in some respects, but it's still a terrible situation.


PS: Good posts, Hooahguy and Showtime.

[Hooahguy]

That’s true, but Jordan isn’t an apartheid state, probably more free than Israel for everybody living there. It’s also worth noting that this is around the time that Israel, with their phalangist allies, targeted Palestinian refugee camps. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_...atila_massacre

Sure, though there isnt much in the way of free speech but I suppose in the grand scheme of things thats better than most in the region.

There’s no need to say anything, he has been constantly demonized even before he was as big of an asshole as he is now, just for taking a stance. You’d be surprised how free pre-war Syria was, you could be openly atheist and even write a book about it. Does Netanyahu not deserve to be treated similarly? Why isn't he demonized?

So free that you can protest without being fired upon by the military?

And people do demonize Bibi. A lot. I strongly dislike the man and he has done terrible things, but now you are doing what Israel's apologists do- point fingers at others to deflect criticism.

Of course there’s little proof that they funded them, but they obviously knew about it and went along with it to pull the rug from under a once stable Syrian government.

So why did you say that they were funding them earlier.

Token or not, they have a multi religious and multiethnic military and political system. Shia Islam is the official state religion, and everything else including Sunni Islam is relegated. Still, equality in Iran is better because they have a more inclusive society. How is it listed as "free" in Freedom House when 1/3 of the population can't vote based on their ethnicity? Should be "partially free," not free.

Well first off, the 1/3 statistic is if you include everyone in the West Bank and Gaza. They arent citizens, and dont get to vote in Israeli elections. Yes, the military occupation of the West Bank is bad, and needs to end. So does the stranglehold over Gaza. But at the same time they arent Israeli citizens which is why pretty much all human rights organizations who deal with that area list Israel as being "free" in that regard.

Gonna have to agree to disagree, Hezbollah’s involvement is totally up for debate.

So besides the fact that in this case pretty much all the evidence pointed to Hezbollah involvement, theres a whole bunch of other terror attacks I can list that were linked to Hezbollah. But really it is coming across that you simply deny the fact that Hezbollah is, at its core, a terrorist organization.

These are all admirable traits of Israeli society, but what do those rights mean when they were built on the backs of people whose self-determination was taken away from them? It’s as much a dictatorship as a lot of its neighbors, to people that are under its occupation. Israel is an apartheid state, and to say it’s any better than the likes of Tunisia or even the monarchies is not accurate.

Yes, and its a real issue that the world and Israel have to deal with (though Bibi isnt a dictator nor do I think that Israel is truly an apartheid state but whatever). But at the same time, don't whitewash the crimes of their neighbors when going after the crimes of Israel.

[AE Bravo]

Sure, though there isnt much in the way of free speech but I suppose in the grand scheme of things thats better than most in the region.

If its government actually practices what it claims for itself and give its citizens equal rights. This would actually be in Israel’s favor in the grand scheme of things. Until then, I can see a lot of countries that are better, and they don’t have to be as liberal to do that because they don’t prevent weak people from basic human services every day.

So free that you can protest without being fired upon by the military?

And people do demonize Bibi. A lot. I strongly dislike the man and he has done terrible things, but now you are doing what Israel's apologists do- point fingers at others to deflect criticism.

Before things got out of hand, Assad dealt with protesters the same way the Israeli police dealt with Arab protesters. If you read up on the Syrian protests from non-western or less biased Arab media outlets you’ll see that Islamists fired from the crowds and planted snipers, you’ll even see that Assad began the reformation process before his voice was buried by his powerful enemies. If people really had Syria’s best interest in mind they should’ve been more diplomatic and avoid threatening to destroy the big guns rather than force them to make concessions (which they started doing btw). Damascus is pro-Bashar, violent protests came from the countryside and invaded the city, most violent protests in Syria want an Islamic state, not a Syrian one.

So why did you say that they were funding them earlier.

They did, this is why Syria is where it’s at now. Who do you think everyone was talking about with the "moderate" rebels? There are over 1,000 brigades, they have no problem being wolves in sheep's clothing if it gets them what they want.

Well first off, the 1/3 statistic is if you include everyone in the West Bank and Gaza. They arent citizens, and dont get to vote in Israeli elections. Yes, the military occupation of the West Bank is bad, and needs to end. So does the stranglehold over Gaza. But at the same time they arent Israeli citizens which is why pretty much all human rights organizations who deal with that area list Israel as being "free" in that regard.

And this is how Israel circumvents what it supposedly stands for. Its human rights violations dealing with people under its control outweighs some of the “not free” countries in Freedom House.

So besides the fact that in this case pretty much all the evidence pointed to Hezbollah involvement, theres a whole bunch of other terror attacks I can list that were linked to Hezbollah. But really it is coming across that you simply deny the fact that Hezbollah is, at its core, a terrorist organization.

You’re passing this off as a fact, but it isn’t. The word has no meaning, not in Islamic politics or any politics. Ask the people of Lebanon if Hezbollah is a terrorist organization.

Yes, and its a real issue that the world and Israel have to deal with (though Bibi isnt a dictator nor do I think that Israel is truly an apartheid state but whatever). But at the same time, don't whitewash the crimes of their neighbors when going after the crimes of Israel.

The only progressive Israel is a post-Zionist Israel. As of now, it’s dominated by ethnic nationalism at the constant expense of another group, so I feel it deserves to be thrown in the same basket.

[Hooahguy]

If you read up on the Syrian protests from non-western or biased Arab media outlets

So in other words, only sources that conform to your particular world view. Gotcha.

They did, this is why Syria is where it’s at now. Who do you think everyone was talking about with the "moderate" rebels? There are over 1,000 brigades, they have no problem being wolves in sheep's clothing if it gets them what they want.

You said there was little proof. Why are you now saying that its definitive.

And this is how Israel circumvents what it supposedly stands for. Its human rights violations dealing with people under its control outweighs some of the “not free” countries in Freedom House.

I agree, I was just saying how its justified under international law.

You’re passing this off as a fact, but it isn’t. The word has no meaning, not in Islamic politics or any politics. Ask the people of Lebanon if Hezbollah is a terrorist organization.

I mean the Arab League considers them as such. As does the EU. And the US. And to most apparently. But to you facts carry no meaning so it wouldnt matter anyways.

The only progressive Israel is a post-Zionist Israel. As of now, it’s dominated by ethnic nationalism like most of its neighbors, so I feel it deserves to be thrown in the same basket.

I agree. I think Zionism is only hurting the cause of democracy in Israel. I just happen to think that its towards the top of that basket.

[AE Bravo]

You said there was little proof. Why are you now saying that its definitive.

That they funded Assad’s opponents is a no-brainer. I said that there was no actual proof of funding Daesh itself, you’re conflating separate points.

I agree, I was just saying how its justified under international law.

That’s also a mixed bag with Israel, because they tend to violate international law where it matters.

I mean the Arab League considers them as such. As does the EU. And the US. And to most apparently. But to you facts carry no meaning so it wouldnt matter anyways.

So because all these countries, including my own, have them in their list it’s a “fact?” What about the countries that object like Tunisia? It's a homegrown movement, and it's not hurting Lebanon. It doesn't mean anything.

I agree. I think Zionism is only hurting the cause of democracy in Israel. I just happen to think that its towards the top of that basket.

Dunno, but feel free to see it that way when comparing it to a country that doesn’t regularly deny basic human services like electricity, humanitarian aid, food on the table, and a wall that separates Muslims from Jews.

[Hooahguy]

That they funded Assad’s opponents is a no-brainer. I said that there was no actual proof of funding Daesh itself, you’re conflating separate points.

Are you reading what you are writing? Because Im definitely getting mixed signals here.

So because all these countries, including my own, have them in their list it’s a “fact?” What about the countries that object like Tunisia? It's a homegrown movement, and it's not hurting Lebanon. It doesn't mean anything.

Well, yes. The international community has for the most part agreed that Hezbollah at the very least has parts of it which engage in terrorist activities. The same international community which has condemned Israel for its crimes. You cant ignore the opinion of the international community when its not convenient for you.

[AE Bravo]

You find it hard to believe that Islamist and Kurdish opposition have gotten to where they are with foreign backing…

I’m not trying to whitewash anything, but coming back to the point, these things have to be highlighted when you look at Iranian foreign policy. Basically you started by telling me that “if you know anything about Iranian foreign policy you’d know it SUCKS” without telling me how it’s worse than US or Israel. I tried explaining why it’s smarter and safer. If facts didn’t matter to me like you say I wouldn’t waste my time defending something I really dislike.

Well, yes. The international community has for the most part agreed that Hezbollah at the very least has parts of it which engage in terrorist activities. The same international community which has condemned Israel for its crimes. You cant ignore the opinion of the international community when its not convenient for you.

One is a disputed issue while the other isn’t. You can point to supranational bodies being against something to make a point but you can’t say it’s “fact” when there are countries that object to it using the charters of the very same bodies to prove a point.