Israel Thread

[Idaho]

I don't think that Idaho is acknowledging the other factor at play in those conflicts, however. US military folk suggest that the problem is partly cultural in that Arabs appear to be brave and effective warriors but to make lousy soldiers. Too few of their formed units had the combat staying power of a typical Israeli formation.

These kinds of explanations are pretty ridiculous in my opinion. Humans are pretty similar, especially in large groups and in extreme situations. Organisation methods and technology are the parameters at play. Culture is a poor explanation.

[Idaho]

A good overview of how the Israeli government is removing political opposition. All opposition is terrorism. The leaders of the current prisoner hunger strike are getting the full smear treatment.

In a blatant attempt at distortion and misdirection, Israel claims that they “are all terrorists,'' all 6,500 prisoners including 300 children, 56 women, 13 parliamentarians, 28 journalists and the 500 administrative detainees held without charge or trial for indefinite periods of time, the worst form of arbitrary detention.

It claims all 800,000 Palestinian prisoners it has arrested since 1967 are ''terrorists'', the equivalent of 40% of our male population in the Occupied Palestinian Territory. And certainly, all the Palestinian people are ''terrorists'' by virtue of their identity.

http://www.newsweek.com/marwan-bargh...artheid-591021

[Seamus Fermanagh]

These kinds of explanations are pretty ridiculous in my opinion. Humans are pretty similar, especially in large groups and in extreme situations. Organisation methods and technology are the parameters at play. Culture is a poor explanation.

You and I disagree fairly thoroughly then on the impact of culture in these situations.

[AE Bravo]

What are the cultural traits you think are responsible then?

[Fragony]

What are the cultural traits you think are responsible then?

Whatever they are it's something to have figure out by themselves, maybe that's the cultural problem right there, they can't

[Seamus Fermanagh]

What are the cultural traits you think are responsible then?

There are other research pieces that take on these issues -- and this pdf is out of date by an edition or two, hence available on copyright grounds. I point you toward the values pieces beginning with Hofstede's work on p. 198.

Arab countries score distinctly differently in terms of collectivism (not individualistic as is the West, but not collectivist/communal as is common in East Asian cultures), uncertainty avoidance (Arab countries are moderate risk takers, not willing to put things to chance as are many Western cultures [though there is much more variance among the West on this]), and power distance (Arab countries tend to prefer/accept authoritarian power structures more readily than most Western cultures, which trend toward equality or less permanent positions of power). Arab cultures tend to be focused less on future generations so much as on the traditional power of the family and tribal groups. Being outcast from your clan would be huge among them, whereas in the West we view anything aside from being disowned by your nuclear family as of little import.

In terms of military effectiveness, the general rules for success to develop a soldiery as opposed to a collection of brave warriors, are at least as old as Rome. Create conditions wherein the individuals retain their individuality but choose to suborn themselves to a group of peers whose experiences they share and whose respect and affection they covet. Basic training, the building of esprit de corps, the acceptance of discipline, etc. are well known parts of the military "recipe."

Such things could certainly be done with any Arab on an individual basis -- but among a group of Arabs their cultural trend is NOT for the individual to find their place in the group but for the extant social -- not military -- group to serve as the locus of action for the individual. How could a rational Arab in the military trust the person next to them who hails from a different tribe when that other Arab MUST maintain their first loyalty to the clan and not to their fellow soldier. This culturally derived disconnect undercuts the kind of esprit de corps that is the basis for military effectiveness in most if not all of the top-tier militaries. And if you keep a clan group together so that clan authority and military authority coincide, you will have an effective unit of force that is crippled by it's inability to cope with casualties -- since ALL of the casualties come from the same clan and diminish it as the "damage" is not spread.

Tom Kratman has some interesting essays tacked on to the end of his first few Carrera-series novels that discuss these issues, drawing on his own and other associates military experience.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

@Idaho:

What is desired "end-state" in this?

To convince people that Israel is no better morally than those it blames for its own misfortune?

To convince people that Israel is the sole bad actor in this drama and that support for them should cease?

To convince people that Israel is functionally an equivalent to the Nazis or the commonly accepted views on Serbian ethnic cleansing, and that Israel therefore should be leagued against and broken in the same manner as the Serbs or perhaps Nazi Germany?

What would you see as the necessary level of "victory" in your "good fight."

[Idaho]

@Idaho:

What is desired "end-state" in this?

To convince people that Israel is no better morally than those it blames for its own misfortune?

To convince people that Israel is the sole bad actor in this drama and that support for them should cease?

To convince people that Israel is functionally an equivalent to the Nazis or the commonly accepted views on Serbian ethnic cleansing, and that Israel therefore should be leagued against and broken in the same manner as the Serbs or perhaps Nazi Germany?

What would you see as the necessary level of "victory" in your "good fight."

You have that American tendency to go into binary thinking. This person is the 'bad guy' therefore this one is the 'good guy'. This person should win therefore this one must lose.

The Palestinians need to be given full citizen rights +passports. They need to have title to their land. They need compensation for land seized in both Israel and the occupied territory.

[Pannonian]

You have that American tendency to go into binary thinking. This person is the 'bad guy' therefore this one is the 'good guy'. This person should win therefore this one must lose.

The Palestinians need to be given full citizen rights +passports. They need to have title to their land. They need compensation for land seized in both Israel and the occupied territory.

And you have the tendency to think that your side is right in all things and thus must come to pass. What if those in power don't want to give in to your demands? What's going to change their mind towards your objective?

[Seamus Fermanagh]

You have that American tendency to go into binary thinking. This person is the 'bad guy' therefore this one is the 'good guy'. This person should win therefore this one must lose.

The Palestinians need to be given full citizen rights +passports. They need to have title to their land. They need compensation for land seized in both Israel and the occupied territory.

Clear enough. Do you see this as a one-state or two-state option? Or perhaps that is immaterial to you.

And you are uncharitable in your assessment of me. I laid out a number of levels of potential end state to prompt your response -- fully aware you would pick none of the options bruited. Yet I see far too many argue against something without a sense of what a desired end state should be -- and those arguments, however elegant, are ultimately pointless. You, by contrast, at least can articulate a desired result that is not out of all rational possibility.

As an aside, the binary thinking you label as "American" is certainly a trait we possess, at least en masse, but it is hardly rare in your own nation nor in Western thinking in general.

[Pannonian]

There are other research pieces that take on these issues -- and this pdf is out of date by an edition or two, hence available on copyright grounds. I point you toward the values pieces beginning with Hofstede's work on p. 198.

Arab countries score distinctly differently in terms of collectivism (not individualistic as is the West, but not collectivist/communal as is common in East Asian cultures), uncertainty avoidance (Arab countries are moderate risk takers, not willing to put things to chance as are many Western cultures [though there is much more variance among the West on this]), and power distance (Arab countries tend to prefer/accept authoritarian power structures more readily than most Western cultures, which trend toward equality or less permanent positions of power). Arab cultures tend to be focused less on future generations so much as on the traditional power of the family and tribal groups. Being outcast from your clan would be huge among them, whereas in the West we view anything aside from being disowned by your nuclear family as of little import.

In terms of military effectiveness, the general rules for success to develop a soldiery as opposed to a collection of brave warriors, are at least as old as Rome. Create conditions wherein the individuals retain their individuality but choose to suborn themselves to a group of peers whose experiences they share and whose respect and affection they covet. Basic training, the building of esprit de corps, the acceptance of discipline, etc. are well known parts of the military "recipe."

Such things could certainly be done with any Arab on an individual basis -- but among a group of Arabs their cultural trend is NOT for the individual to find their place in the group but for the extant social -- not military -- group to serve as the locus of action for the individual. How could a rational Arab in the military trust the person next to them who hails from a different tribe when that other Arab MUST maintain their first loyalty to the clan and not to their fellow soldier. This culturally derived disconnect undercuts the kind of esprit de corps that is the basis for military effectiveness in most if not all of the top-tier militaries. And if you keep a clan group together so that clan authority and military authority coincide, you will have an effective unit of force that is crippled by it's inability to cope with casualties -- since ALL of the casualties come from the same clan and diminish it as the "damage" is not spread.

Tom Kratman has some interesting essays tacked on to the end of his first few Carrera-series novels that discuss these issues, drawing on his own and other associates military experience.

There's also the strong cultural influences of Islamism, whereby you have people competing to show their devotion to the religion. Whatever discipline there is is trumped by ever stricter interpretations of religion, which justifies violent action against those deemed less devout, including authority figures up to and including their supposed rulers. Pakistan is probably the militarily strongest Muslim country in the world, and a couple of their ministers have been killed for attempting to enforce secular rule of law, with their murderers celebrated as martyrs (even here in the UK).

[Idaho]

You and I disagree fairly thoroughly then on the impact of culture in these situations.

I suppose this is a natural way of thinking for white Americans. It is the mental approach they have had to the black underclass for many generations.

[Fragony]

I suppose this is a natural way of thinking for white Americans. It is the mental approach they have had to the black underclass for many generations.

They really don't need whites to fail they do that to themselves, racism only exists in the head of delicate white-princesses, upper-class blackcoats and blacks who can't admit that they fucked it up

[Montmorency]

They really don't need whites to fail they do that to themselves, racism only exists in the head of delicate white-princesses, upper-class blackcoats and blacks who can't admit that they fucked it up

Fucked what up?

[Fragony]

Fucked what up?

How about a lot? Not talking about black people but why insist to be a victim just because you are black? I would love to be able to fuck up and be excused just because I'm black, got a whole cheerleader-team of precious princesses cheering for me if I make a rap about it

This I can respect, how it is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qggxTtnKTMo

I got this whole 'racism is gone, what now, let's invent it' thingie

[Idaho]

They really don't need whites to fail they do that to themselves, racism only exists in the head of delicate white-princesses, upper-class blackcoats and blacks who can't admit that they fucked it up

And this is why I don't take your opinions seriously Fragony. You are a combination of nasty and hilariously deranged.

[Husar]

They really don't need whites to fail they do that to themselves, racism only exists in the head of delicate white-princesses, upper-class blackcoats and blacks who can't admit that they fucked it up

That's racist!

[Montmorency]

Racism can't be real because white people don't exist.

[Fragony]

Racism can't be real because white people don't exist.

That would be nice but white people do, and we get blamed for everything, and like flaggalanties we take the blame. Not me, a very big fuck of de moi go matter if you please but please, please

[Montmorency]

I suppose this is a natural way of thinking for white Americans. It is the mental approach they have had to the black underclass for many generations.

So the white frame of reference is a cultural element.

Anyway, the main immediate reason for Arab military failure is the inability of their central governments to keep a military campaign grinding on in the face of multiple competing parties among their coalitions, public dissatisfaction at home, and international disapproval.

Iran-Iraq, for one, had quite a lot of external impetus as well as being more unilaterally-driven.

[Pannonian]

These kinds of explanations are pretty ridiculous in my opinion. Humans are pretty similar, especially in large groups and in extreme situations. Organisation methods and technology are the parameters at play. Culture is a poor explanation.

The west is based on a Christianity that has largely secularised itself over the last few centuries. The middle east is tending towards an Islam that harks back to the middle ages. Not quite in the middle east, but certainly a good example of this, see Pakistan.