Turkey Thread

[AE Bravo]

He said it is in part the eu's fault, which is hard to argue.

The moment the EU showed its willful concessions, support for the EU in Turkey increased. According to one poll 62% of Turks want to join the EU, up from 42% in last year. About 7/10 believe Turkey will never be allowed in (http://www.economist.com/news/europe...ky-deal-turkey). Whether Turkey fits into this "value community" or not, you could argue that Turkey has been backing these values in an international scale for decades and by right deserve to have their allies search for a middle ground as they are now.

Don't pretend that Turkey's aggressive diplomacy and bullying of low profile countries isn't shared by a handful of EU states.

Would you always advocate choosing long-term partners based on one-dimensional criteria?

Wow, how one-dimensional is it that you granted the Arab Gulf visa-free travel before your own neighbor, who is closer to your own "values," doesn't sabotage your interests as much, and pulls out its ambassadors from you the same way?

[Pannonian]

He said it is in part the eu's fault, which is hard to argue.

The moment the EU showed its willful concessions, support for the EU in Turkey increased. According to one poll 62% of Turks want to join the EU, up from 42% in last year. About 7/10 believe Turkey will never be allowed in (http://www.economist.com/news/europe...ky-deal-turkey). Whether Turkey fits into this "value community" or not, you could argue that Turkey has been backing these values in an international scale for decades and by right deserve to have their allies search for a middle ground as they are now.

Don't pretend that Turkey's aggressive diplomacy and bullying of low profile countries isn't shared by a handful of EU states.

Wow, how one-dimensional is it that you granted the Arab Gulf visa-free travel before your own neighbor, who is closer to your own "values," doesn't sabotage your interests as much, and pulls out its ambassadors from you the same way?

Kemal would have said that these values are worth attaining, in and of themselves, without needing validation by others.

[Gilrandir]

if turkey has turned away from western liberal democracy then it is in part the eu's fault.

Internal policy of a country doesn't and shouldn't depend on what someone thinks. If a country favors dictatorship, it is its own prefrence/fault.

1) Why would 40 years of being a military ally alone qualify a country to join what some also call a "value community" if their values are completely different in many dimensions?

Being a military ally presupposes intense cooperation and adapting to common standards at least in some sphere(s). Which promotes mutual understanding and makes it easier to cooperate on in other fields.

[Husar]

The moment the EU showed its willful concessions, support for the EU in Turkey increased. According to one poll 62% of Turks want to join the EU, up from 42% in last year. About 7/10 believe Turkey will never be allowed in (http://www.economist.com/news/europe...ky-deal-turkey). Whether Turkey fits into this "value community" or not, you could argue that Turkey has been backing these values in an international scale for decades and by right deserve to have their allies search for a middle ground as they are now.

Don't pretend that Turkey's aggressive diplomacy and bullying of low profile countries isn't shared by a handful of EU states.

Erdogan goes against a whole lot of democratic values, the whole torturing in prisons and other human rights abuses are still not out of the way, then you have the unwillingness to even aknowledge past crimes, new crimes against the Kurdish population, possible ties to ISIS and so on. Where in this do you see a backing of liberal European values?
You can tell me all day how some EU countries do or at least support similar things but none of that is mainstream public perception and that is what counts. Politicians don't get elected based on the truth but on the mainstream public perception. Or you could say it is about how Europeans want to see their countries even if they fail to be like that and Turkey does not fit this at all.

Wow, how one-dimensional is it that you granted the Arab Gulf visa-free travel before your own neighbor, who is closer to your own "values," doesn't sabotage your interests as much, and pulls out its ambassadors from you the same way?

I have absolutely no idea on what grounds visa-free travel is given and there is usually about zero public discussion on the topic when it happens. In fact I did not even know that, you bring about the least relevant point here when it comes to public perception of other countries because visa restrictions do not seem to reflect public perception at all in this case.
And please explain how this visa-situation is one-dimensional, do you know they used only one criterium to decide this or are you just making this up?

Being a military ally presupposes intense cooperation and adapting to common standards at least in some sphere(s). Which promotes mutual understanding and makes it easier to cooperate on in other fields.

Turkey is a military ally of NATO and NATO is not the EU. Being in a good position to nuke the USSR is not the same as having a good human rights record or promising future in that regard. Saddam Hussein and Gaddhafi were also military allies at one point and Egypt has a lot of US tanks. Does that make all these countries eligible to join NATO or the EU? If Russia sells us gas for 40 years, did they earn their right to be in the EU for having been such a reliable business partner for 40 years? They kept millions of Germans warm in the winter for 40 years after all!
We also have more common basic standards with Russia than the US: the meter, the liter, the gram...

[AE Bravo]

Erdogan goes against a whole lot of democratic values, the whole torturing in prisons and other human rights abuses are still not out of the way, then you have the unwillingness to even aknowledge past crimes, new crimes against the Kurdish population, possible ties to ISIS and so on. Where in this do you see a backing of liberal European values?
You can tell me all day how some EU countries do or at least support similar things but none of that is mainstream public perception and that is what counts. Politicians don't get elected based on the truth but on the mainstream public perception. Or you could say it is about how Europeans want to see their countries even if they fail to be like that and Turkey does not fit this at all.

So being one of the top three (?) trade partners, supporting European interests in the frontline of the most sensitive region, and having a potential democratic future isn’t enough to be promised something in the next few decades. You do realize that one of the initial aims of this whole thing was to provide incentive for reform? It’s torn between two worlds, and it basically got told to f off for not committing to anything at the doorstep right off the bat.

Maybe you should decide first whether the EU is a "value community" or a security community. I don't see Turkey totally abandoning its political Islam tendencies as that undermines its interesting position in the middle east.

I have absolutely no idea on what grounds visa-free travel is given and there is usually about zero public discussion on the topic when it happens. In fact I did not even know that, you bring about the least relevant point here when it comes to public perception of other countries because visa restrictions do not seem to reflect public perception at all in this case.
And please explain how this visa-situation is one-dimensional, do you know they used only one criterium to decide this or are you just making this up?

Counterterrorism legislation was one of the two criterium used, which in Turkey is virtually identical to the other states that were granted this. I don’t think it’s as irrelevant as you make it out to be because 1) This was one of the first things to be implemented, so obviously a priority in that regard and 2) for the reason that arbitrary, and in some cases discriminatory, travel restrictions affect public perception.

[Kralizec]

As far as I can tell, the only other countries in the region that have EU Visa waivers are Israel and the UAE. I didn't know about the last one, but then again it's fairly recent.

I would wager that the EU makes Visa deals with countries on a case-by-case basis. The UAE is smaller (certainly in terms of nationals, the ones to which a Visa waiver would apply) and much further away. There would be much fewer security considerations in that case.

There are many other "benchmarks" that are unfulfilled, out of more than 70 that were originally set out years ago. One issue being the reliability of their passport system, for example. The only reason we focus on the anti-terrorism bit is because Erdogan has given us the finger on that one.

[AE Bravo]

Fair enough. I actually thought it wasn't just the UAE.

[Husar]

So being one of the top three (?) trade partners, supporting European interests in the frontline of the most sensitive region, and having a potential democratic future isn’t enough to be promised something in the next few decades. You do realize that one of the initial aims of this whole thing was to provide incentive for reform? It’s torn between two worlds, and it basically got told to f off for not committing to anything at the doorstep right off the bat.

Eh, they were promised membership IF they would fulfill certain European values. You can't just promise something no matter what, where's the incentive then? Obviously even the incentive of membership was not big enough to make them stop the human rights abuses or to stop Erdogan from wanting more power for himself. When was it told to f off? It is already in the early stages of a membership process, it's just not progressing a lot because it's not willing to fulfill the criteria.

You can read more about it here
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Access...European_Union

Negotiations were started on 3 October 2005[6] and out of 35 Chapters necessary to complete the accession process, 15 have been opened and 1 has been closed.[7]

Maybe you should decide first whether the EU is a "value community" or a security community. I don't see Turkey totally abandoning its political Islam tendencies as that undermines its interesting position in the middle east.

That's already decided, you may have already noticed that Turkey is not in yet because providing security and money is not enough.
Several member states have had more or less undemocratic tendencies over the years and have been shunned or scolded for them just as well.
Turkey can keep whatever tendencies it wants, it may just never become an EU member then.