Brexit Thread

[InsaneApache]

OK, the last thread got locked so please behave kiddies.

My take on it is this.

Forget all the arguments about trade, immigration and all the rest.

Do you want the ability to remove the politicians who make the laws?

If you do, then you should vote to leave.

If you couldn't give a monkeys chuff about the demos, then vote to stay.

[Pannonian]

Who did you vote for in the last Euro election? Did you canvas for your MEP candidate?

[InsaneApache]

Who did you vote for in the last Euro election? Did you canvas for your MEP candidate?

LOL

[InsaneApache]

You know as well as I do the MEPs are members of a toothless talking shop. The real power is the Commission.

[Fragony]

Help us Obiwan Kanobi, you are our only hope. A brexit is the only way we will ever get a nexit, and blow up the EU together.

[Pannonian]

You know as well as I do the MEPs are members of a toothless talking shop. The real power is the Commission.

The real power is the UK Parliament, whose MPs we elect. Most European bodies are practically powerless unless we decide we want to implement whatever it is they're suggesting. There is a powerful movement in the EU that transcends national government, but it's to do with the euro and hence something that doesn't concern us. Nearly everything in the EU that overrides national government we've opted out of. There may well be a good argument within the eurozone for exiting a body that has powers that they can do nothing about, but the UK is free of nearly everything of that sort. For the UK, the EU is not much more than an EEC with some social additions that our national government wants anyway. A Nexit may make philosophical sense on those grounds. Not so much a Brexit.

Even if we do exit the EU, we're not big enough to stand alone in global markets. So we're going to have to look elsewhere for a bloc that will support our interests. The closest alternative is the US. The problem with a US-UK economic bloc is that the US is even keener on what we see as the worst parts of globalisation than the EU is. The US, after all, is keen on an absolute free market, while the biggest use of EU money is propping up local economies. Exiting the EU because we don't like their bigger vista only sends us towards an even greater supporter of globalisation.

[Fragony]

Consider the Benelux (without Walliona) and Scandinavian countries, an absolute powerhouse. There are ways to get rid of the monster that is the EU, none of said countries need them.

[Pannonian]

Consider the Benelux (without Walliona) and Scandinavian countries, an absolute powerhouse. There are ways to get rid of the monster that is the EU, none of said countries need them.

Create that bloc and we'll join you. Don't expect us to make the first steps.

[Husar]

I don't even get to vote on it!

[InsaneApache]

The real power is the UK Parliament, whose MPs we elect. Most European bodies are practically powerless unless we decide we want to implement whatever it is they're suggesting. There is a powerful movement in the EU that transcends national government, but it's to do with the euro and hence something that doesn't concern us. Nearly everything in the EU that overrides national government we've opted out of. There may well be a good argument within the eurozone for exiting a body that has powers that they can do nothing about, but the UK is free of nearly everything of that sort. For the UK, the EU is not much more than an EEC with some social additions that our national government wants anyway. A Nexit may make philosophical sense on those grounds. Not so much a Brexit.

Even if we do exit the EU, we're not big enough to stand alone in global markets. So we're going to have to look elsewhere for a bloc that will support our interests. The closest alternative is the US. The problem with a US-UK economic bloc is that the US is even keener on what we see as the worst parts of globalisation than the EU is. The US, after all, is keen on an absolute free market, while the biggest use of EU money is propping up local economies. Exiting the EU because we don't like their bigger vista only sends us towards an even greater supporter of globalisation.

With all due respect, that's just wrong.

The Lisbon treaty changed all that.

As for being too small to exist outside of the EU, ludicrous.

If you value wealth over liberty and freedom, then you deserve to get everything you asked for. Good and hard.

[Husar]

If you value wealth over liberty and freedom, then you deserve to get everything you asked for. Good and hard.

You mean like London with all the CCTV and financial industry?

[Fragony]

Create that bloc and we'll join you. Don't expect us to make the first steps.

We are hoping you, our referendums aren't binding, only Wilders wants binding referendums and nobody wants to work with him. A brexit would be a great leap, and yes the first step. The dutch were against the EU constitution, they did it anyway. The Dutch were against the treaty with Ukraine, they did it anyway. When our economy grows the EU demands more money, they even take in account illegal money that was made in prostitution and drugs. The EU is just as much dispised here as it is in the UK.

[Fragony]

Meanwhile http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/eu...ters-3j3kg3zwj UK get us out pf this, again

please use that referendum to break the back of the EU before it becomes it's true form

[edyzmedieval]

Brexit, in all honesty, is a turning point in UK politics. Doesn't matter whether you agree with the EU or not, or what your option is, a serious change will happen in the UK after this referendum regardless of the outcome of the vote. And it will affect every inch and corner of all industries because of all of the trade agreements, exports and legal issues that bind the UK to the EU.

23rd of June - let's see what happens.

[Fragony]

Beggars aren't choosers, it isn't going to hurt the UK at all. Everything will remain the same. It only hurts eurocrats.

[edyzmedieval]

Yes it will.

On every count you can imagine, regardless if the vote is negative or positive. Economically, socially, legally, anything you can think of. The UK has integrated within the EU since the European Coal and Steel Community in the 1960's and 1970's, and bringing the UK out of legal treaties that have worked for the past 40 years is not exactly the easiest thing.

[Fragony]

Yes it will.

On every count you can imagine, regardless if the vote is negative or positive. Economically, socially, legally, anything you can think of. The UK has integrated within the EU since the European Coal and Steel Community in the 1960's and 1970's, and bringing the UK out of legal treaties that have worked for the past 40 years is not exactly the easiest thing.

Yes it is really that simple, all these treaties were already in effect during the EEG, a brexit is only a problem for the EU who loses one of it's most important payers, and eurocrats who become even more ideologically bankrupt.

[edyzmedieval]

The only problem here is that those treaties will no longer fully apply as they do now - the EU won't give the same concessions and trade rights to the UK after it leaves the EU, if it does.

So after a (hypothetical) Brexit, the UK and the EU economies stand to lose. And lose quite a lot.

[Fragony]

The only problem here is that those treaties will no longer fully apply as they do now - the EU won't give the same concessions and trade rights to the UK after it leaves the EU, if it does.

So after a (hypothetical) Brexit, the UK and the EU economies stand to lose. And lose quite a lot.

Those rights already existed, the UK has nothing to worry about. Like in the Netherlands for the UK the EU is just a very expensive overhead with very little use.

[edyzmedieval]

UK stands to lose a lot in the economy sector, the EU's common market greatly helped the EU economy and the local producers. Restricting at least the ease of access for goods is not exactly the best of situations for either party, and economics is not the only part where changes will be expected, regardless of the vote.

But let's see how it goes first of all - 23rd of June should be a rather important day in the UK.

[Beskar]

Europe Union suffers from a duality. It is an organisation of Eueopean Countries on one hand, but there are times where it is a superstate-lite. The commissars that people like to moan about are appointed by each country to represent their interests, and it is these individual countries which attempt to game the system for their benefit. An example of this from the UK is Margret Thatcher and recently David Cameron, who wanted to change the EU to benefit the UK interest more. The issue is, these arguments from Tony Benn and the left euroseptics is mostly that these systems which provide forums for national interest are corrupt and undemocratic. As such, they require a reform of the EU to actually go follow a mandate of its people like a true state.

The issue is, right wing euroseptics whilst they might use some of these arguments from the left, are in no way wanting the solution to the democratic deficient because they are only wanting things to their own national benefit, thus the current system is actually a creation from the right to ensure they can have national country interests instead of bowing to the interests of the European people.

it is the funny things like that which are used as ammunition in this campaign by some people...they use arguments against the EU but the actual solution is the opposite of what they believe and oppose that too, in a oxymoronic position where the solution is to froth at the mouth on issues the EU is not responsible for, yelling leave, because they read it in the Daily Mail (cue ECHR). Funnily enough, Daily Mail is a source of that influence and corruption from private interest that Mr Benn was on about.

[Greyblades]

I feel it is a wasted effort to be complaining that the right doesnt have the same goals as the left. It being perfectly willing to use thier arguments when it suits them is but par for the course.

The left may wish to fix the EU corruption but the right does not want it to be in the position to be corrupt in the first place. The Eu should be a tool of nations not the other way around.

[Beskar]

The Eu should be a tool of nations not the other way around.

Both ways around are wrong. Europe be for the European people. Having it any other way IS the corruption.

[Greyblades]

Europe and the EU arent the same thing. No matter how much Brussles wails otherwise the EU is a tool.

[Fragony]

Go Pat Condol http://www.geenstijl.nl/mt/archieven...rits.html#more

'Brexit' is worth watching as well

[InsaneApache]

[Fragony]

I want his shirt I want to go to Ibiza in two weeks. But he's right. Dear UK get us out of their clutches. I don't want to live in an ultra-undemocratic lobby-paradise even if I would never notice I do in fact do.

[InsaneApache]

[Fragony]

That is staged, Soraya is not a Turkish name. Nice cockney accent.

[InsaneApache]

That is staged, Soraya is not a Turkish name. Nice cockney accent.

She's not Turkish.