Brexit Thread

[Gilrandir]

Except one of them was bought without taxpayers money. Talk about apples and oranges!

You are taking it too seriously. It was just a funny picture.

[Husar]

Except one of them was bought without taxpayers money. Talk about apples and oranges!

I'm pretty sure all of them were bought with money from taxpayers.

[Fragony]

lol, this is painfull, that unelected Juncker is absolutily hammered he can hardly stand, that drunk http://www.geenstijl.nl/mt/archieven....html#comments

[Beskar]

[Lizardo]

Beskar who is telling you that you can reform the EU? Look at the structure of the EU commision unelected politbureau, you can not fire them or vote them out,

[Lizardo]

Personally this makes you unfit to be moderator, your thought process is not rational hope is a fools virtue, so you have blind faith that for some reason the EU will magically be reformed and there that rationalises a decision to vote in and wait for a so called reform which isn't even a given. ALARM BELLS RINGING!!!!! So you're voting on a whim/a construct of your brain, the EUSSR has brainwashed you much like the belief in the USSR of russian citizens during the cold war.

Lol the day when mass media call the Dalai Lama a bigot! also the EU totalitarianism




Now who decide this the EU parliament ? Nope the EU commision again no votes took place pure totalitarianism

[Pannonian]

LOL at someone arguing for free speech, yet in the same paragraph saying that someone is unfit to be moderator due to his views. Either that's some breathtaking hypocrisy right there, or a total lack of self-awareness. Going by whatever else you've posted, I'd go for the latter. The former requires a certain minimum level of intelligence to attain.

[Lizardo]

caan you read i said "personally". I am for free speech hence why its my opinion im not the site owner am i? your not for free speech so on one miscontrued opinion of m sentence you will delegitimase everything ive said. I enjoy my limited free speech In britain hence why i'm voting out for many a reason and now not to be subjected to these new directives issued to all social media companies and a mandatory Government ID to access social media. Your foolishness thinks i dont want Beskar having free speech when i'm clearly expressing my opinion that Beskar may be unfit to be moderating our comments. Low IQ? pot calling the kettle black?

[Pannonian]

caan you read i said "personally". I am for free speech hence why its my opinion im not the site owner am i? your not for free speech so on one miscontrued opinion of m sentence you will delegitimase everything ive said. I enjoy my limited free speech In britain hence why i'm voting out for many a reason and now not to be subjected to these new directives issued to all social media companies and a mandatory Government ID to access social media. Your foolishness thinks i dont want Beskar having free speech when i'm clearly expressing my opinion that Beskar may be unfit to be moderating our comments. Low IQ? pot calling the kettle black?

Is your native language English?

[Lizardo]

Explain to me ho i am impeding Beskars Free speeach?

[Pannonian]

Explain to me ho i am impeding Beskars Free speeach?

I think your poor communication skills in the English language is impeding understanding what the heck it is that you're going on about. Hence my enquiry as to whether English is your native language.

[Lizardo]

I rest case

[Pannonian]

I rest case

Whether or not you're for free speech, you're certainly not for comprehensible speeach (sic).

[Lizardo]

its free speech i can speaka english howver i fish Haha i play with you. English is my first language but i'm being lazy. actually its parkinsons and tourrETEs combined thatadsgf hl'''',gfdhss mdaskw mew SSPEECH THIS WAY

[Beskar]

I am clearly known for my totalitarian censorship of pro-speech. Today, I permanently banned two members, one for writing he could provide plumbing services in Pakistan for a reasonable price, and the other apparently knew of some "hot kinky ladies" in my local area which were apparently waiting for "me".

Jesting aside, hope is necessary in every day living. It is the enthusiasm which makes us get up each morning, and actually try to make something out of life. In a way, you are a believer of hope Lizardo. You come in threads like these, and you attempt to inform us in your special way, hoping we are convinced and swayed by your arguments, trying to make a difference in the world.

Will the EU reform? The fact is, the desire for reform needs political capital. People who are on the gravy train do not want to rock the boat, unless they need to. There are many factors against EU reform, and ultimately, the biggest one is also its biggest critic. Nationalism.

The EU is a construct which is intended to be a partnership between countries towards achieving several important and reaching political and economical goals. It is this construct and framework of unity which can bring about these changes more effectively and more adequately. But the thing is with partnerships, and teams, is that not everyone is equal. This is fundamentally a good thing, as diversity, the adoption of different roles by the partners, can make things work more effective (see Belbin). However, a big hurdle to this co-operation is national interest.

One criticism, as you mentioned yourself, are the EU commision. But what is the commission and who are these evil unelected commissioners.
Who appoints these commissioners?: It is the nations themselves of course. So the UK has a commissioner, so does France, so does Germany... all 28 members in fact.
What do they do?: They represent the national interest of the individual member states within the European Union.
What happens if we get rid of them?: National governments will have a decreased say in how the EU is run.
Why aren't they elected?: They could be, but our governments choose not to.
Why?: Because the government wants increased control of the affairs of the EU. This is part of why Cameron and Merkel meet up for coffee, to discuss their EU ambitions and plans.

Now, as you commented Lizardo. You want countries to leave the evil EU, because of National Interest. Citing the institutions built for National Interest as the reason for leaving. But if you had to stay and increase your National Interest in the EU, you would empower the commissioners.

It is this oxymoronic, paradoxical, self-fulfilling arrangement, where there is a distinct element of people who want to promote national interest within and out the EU.

Want to know what the solution is to this? It is Fragony's favourite cited phrase. "Ever closer union". By becoming closer, the EU would disband and eliminate the commission, then it could give rise to an EU with a democratic mandate and supported by the European people.

Furunculus said it once on here: "I dislike the EU, as it is not democratic. But I do not want to become democratic, as it would then have a democratic mandate which represents us, thus we cannot leave." It is a nationalist leaning rhetoric where the biggest barriers to democratic reform are those who with national interests, and it is the same people who criticise the EU for not reforming, whilst they are the barrier which prevents it.

The European Union needs reform, there is no doubt about it. I can start listing them off. Want to hear a couple?
European-wide minimum wage. Fix the disparity in Europe, bring about fair compensation for peoples work. This would prevent internal migration of people, because either in the West or the East, doing Job A will get you Pay A, instead of the mismatch system.
Increase of Democracy within the EU system, and increased powers for a reformed European Parliament. An elected European President. Because Democratic mandate is important and should not be forgotten.
Increased accountability. Obvious reasons.

Of course, being sensible is a lost art.

We could vote out of the EU, citing NAFTA, when Britain is American's lapdog and will sign the dotted line as soon as we leave anyway, with no discussion or debate. At least the EU challenged the treaty and kept pushing for amendments, which it is why it is taking so long, opposed to being signed in 2012. Thing is, Europe has protected Britain from itself. There is a distinct fear that the supposed "freedom" will led to some very significant disasters in policies.


Side-Note:
This was brought up by someone voting out -
"We are not a proper partnership anyway, if we were, and if we looked out for eachother. We would go in and save Greece, eliminating their loans and help rebuild the country."
Later on -
"I don't care about the other european nations, we won't want to give them any money or bail them out"

So... doomed if you do, doomed if you don't? Rational.

[Husar]

Terrible, who would believe Breitbart, a US conservative news network, on European matters?

The only thing important to them is the US and if they think they can get an advantage through divide and conquer, they would immediately do that, and probably are doing it. I could also cite US laws to show what a restrictive dictatorship it is. I mean you can even get fined for littering there, why don't you have the freedom to poison everyone around you with plastic waste because it seems so harmless to just drop something? Arrests for jaywalking? What happened to your freedom to cross a street in the Breitbart dictatorship?

And since you meantion Britain Lizardo, eh, what? Is Britain turning into a dictatorship even without the help of the EU? It already has zones where protesting is banned, widespread surveillance including a government that stores all of your, and my, internet communication. Explain to me what gives your government the right to store my internet communication when I'm not a citizen of the UK? When did I ever get to vote on that??? These are unelected bureaucrats sniffing around in my personal life and I never got a say or an option to stop this? Again, what democratic process can I use to make this stop? You say it's not opkay if people in Brussels influence your life? Well, is it okay then if people in London influence mine?

[Lizardo]

Beskar what do you see the need for the EU and what you like to become of the EU?

And also In your eyes if you could reform what would you do?

I personally do not see a need for a political organisation encompassing Europe, each country and it's people have their own agenda, GDP, wealth, working hours (Spain and the Siesta), culture, industry the list goes on. You can not bring about a european wide minimum wage it may well cripple economies and the imports and exports, for instance the Euro currency has decimated spain the cost of living was great in Spain with the peseta now it'ts shot up with the Euro, the Eu can only work with similar countries and industries thats why you've only seen France,Germany,Britain as the powerhouses and the nordic countries and Italy cling on, but with spain portugal and eastern europe its caused a massive brain drain only benefitting the powerhouses as i mentioned. And bullying greece and portugal also spain into submission via the Troika can not justified. ALso making all european nations produce goods of equal or better quality will not benefit the poorer EU nations people.

"We could vote out of the EU, citing NAFTA, when Britain is American's lapdog and will sign the dotted line as soon as we leave anyway, with no discussion or debate. At least the EU challenged the treaty and kept pushing for amendments, which it is why it is taking so long, opposed to being signed in 2012. Thing is, Europe has protected Britain from itself. There is a distinct fear that the supposed "freedom" will led to some very significant disasters in policies."


This not a given this is speculation, Iceland and Switzerland are not America's lapdog, well maybe considering Swiss cooperation with the FIFA scandal, I agree in some respects EU has protected us from awful Trade Deals. but the EU has also prevented us from good ones with emerging economies. EU sanctions of Russia have not been welcomed by the populace. The only mtrade deal in the world that stipulates freedom of movement of people isEUWWRONDGS

Jesting aside, hope is necessary in every day living. It is the enthusiasm which makes us get up each morning, and actually try to make something out of life. In a way, you are a believer of hope Lizardo. You come in threads like these, and you attempt to inform us in your special way, hoping we are convinced and swayed by your arguments, trying to make a difference in the world.

Very true lol.

Side-Note:

This was brought up by someone voting out -

I now approve Beskar as moderator

Tge eurozone is going to tank beginning with france mark my words

[Lizardo]

Terrible, who would believe Breitbart, a US conservative news network, on European matters?

The only thing important to them is the US and if they think they can get an advantage through divide and conquer, they would immediately do that, and probably are doing it. I could also cite US laws to show what a restrictive dictatorship it is. I mean you can even get fined for littering there, why don't you have the freedom to poison everyone around you with plastic waste because it seems so harmless to just drop something? Arrests for jaywalking? What happened to your freedom to cross a street in the Breitbart dictatorship?

And since you meantion Britain Lizardo, eh, what? Is Britain turning into a dictatorship even without the help of the EU? It already has zones where protesting is banned, widespread surveillance including a government that stores all of your, and my, internet communication. Explain to me what gives your government the right to store my internet communication when I'm not a citizen of the UK? When did I ever get to vote on that??? These are unelected bureaucrats sniffing around in my personal life and I never got a say or an option to stop this? Again, what democratic process can I use to make this stop? You say it's not opkay if people in Brussels influence your life? Well, is it okay then if people in London influence mine?

And you think The EU commisison will make all this better?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fj64KQYS4ro

[Beskar]

Beskar what do you see the need for the EU and what you like to become of the EU?

The EU has a purpose in its concept and theory. In some areas, it does this successfully, in others, it does not. In some areas, it does it dreadfully. The EU does need serious reform, I have never shy-ed from this fact.

But to answer your questions directly...

The need for greater international cooperation is rather self-explanatory, even if it is purely self-interest. We are living in an increasingly globalised world, and this has accelerated with the dawn of the internet. We have long gone past national boundaries, and on this forum, you see this in action. We have Fragony the loveable dutch guy, you got Husar the germanic comedian, and even the Yorkshire Apache. We are in different countries, yet many of the posters share the same fundamental values, even if they have different views on the solution.

Thing is, there are a great many people who communicate regularly and they come to share in this pan-national identity. In many ways, we are friends and family, the only difference between me and you Lizardo could be I was born on one side of a line and you the other. Yet despite the similarities, we are classified as being supposedly radically different, because of this line some random people decided simply exists.

As you have stated in this thread, you want accountability and democratic representation. I want this as well, and I want you to have it too, and for your comments, it sounds like you want me to have it as well. What is there making us so different when we want to have the same thing? Why does me having democratic representation have to be different to you having democratic representation? Why can we not have both?

Going back to my earlier point, we are living in an increasingly globalised world. We see multinational companies, nations, and NGO's, take advantage of the inequalities between nations in order to exploit them. It could be closing down factories in the US, whilst hiring cheaper labour in India. It could be putting your finances in the Seychelles in order to avoid tax regulation. It could be having your headquarters in Luxembourg, who then sells products to your coffee-shops in Britain "at a loss", in order to avoid paying tax in the UK., arguing the stores there are making a loss, which is "forgiven" by the company. There is also the trillions in transactions going on this second in between the fluctuating currency markets, with the wealth of the world growing increasingly going into the hands of less and less people. There is an economical need and requirement for partnerships to avoid economic exploitation.

As for Trade, the EU streamlined the process significantly. In the past, in order to trade with another EU country, you would have to specifically tailor your product for that market and its regulations. So to trade with everyone within the EU, you would basically have to have 28 separate products and packaging as a minimum. This is a lot of "red tape" and economic wastage. The process was streamlined by having all 28 countries agreeing to the same set of standards, so now products and services can occur across Europe. Now, this is strangely the reverse of the Eurosceptic argument, because you are probably familiar with Brussels apparently telling us how to do these regulations. The thing is, these regulations are done in cooperation, and it produces less red-tape overall, saving companies millions, so when people argue it is the otherway around, you really need to question what they mean. Usually, it is to argue about some trivial thing which would make no noticeable difference.

Obviously, there is the issue of brevity, as I could keep on continuing these arguments, but the bottom line is: We gain more by working together than not doing.

And this is what I want from the EU, where we have a lot of shared culture and values. Better partnership, better cooperation, better tomorrow. This could be further expanded to the Anglosphere.

And also In your eyes if you could reform what would you do?

I briefly covered three of them in my earlier post, and these were mostly broad and general. It would be along those lines.
But the European-Minimum wage is something that is really needed. It would also "solve" the migrant crisis (within Europe) which people are fearing.

I personally do not see a need for a political organisation encompassing Europe, each country and it's people have their own agenda, GDP, wealth, working hours, culture, industry the list goes on.

"Have their own agenda" - Why is this a good thing? If i have an agenda of "lets ban Lizardo", clearly you would be unhappy with this agenda. Now, if we had the agenda of "lets work together to improve the Backroom", that is something we could both work upon, together, and not conflicting.
"GDP" - and why is an individual GDP in nations required? What is special about this?
"Working Hours/Wages" - As you see in my earlier comments, I am really opposed to differences in this. People should be able to work as much as they are willing to, but they cannot be contractually obliged to go above a certain amount of hours. This is very important to prevent wage-slave labour, and because the health impact of working too much, especially against your will, is significant. There are reasons concepts such as minimum wage, and maximum contract hours exist, and these are to protect people. Because Husar is in Germany for example, doesn't make it less relevant than it is here. It is one of those 'human' things that is shared between all of us, and there is no reason for these differences to exist.
"Culture" - In Europe, we have a rather open cultural where we all share and influence eachother. These might be traditional styles of dress, or the food we eat. This doesn't need to change in any radical manner, unless a radical change is required. (ie: obviously things such as non-consensual ritualised cannibalism should be banned/changed)

There isn't any "real" reasons against a shared human identity. There are reasons, but these are usually hollow, nonsensical, or different priorities, but they are objections which challenge on a fundamental level against the concepts in themselves.

[Beskar]

You significantly edited your post whilst I was replying, so I will briefly address some of your additions...

working hours (Spain and the Siesta)

Regional issue which doesn't change anything. 9-5 working is not enforced by law. People and businesses are free to use what ever hours are suitable for them and their consumers. So there are no objections anywhere to Siestas.

I only object to forcing people to work 60 hour a week, for example. It is really inappropriate and detrimental to their health. If you happen to love your work and want to do 60 hours? Then feel free, I have absolutely no objection to you choosing to do that. The key word here is "choice". I want you, and other people, to have it.

You can not bring about a european wide minimum wage it may well cripple economies and the imports and exports

So your own economy being crippled by businesses sacking/unemploying people, to employ people in worse conditions for cheaper costs... is right?
Sorry, but capitalising on others inequality and exploiting them is not a moral argument you can use.
The costs can be off-set by subsidising those poorer countries, if there is indeed an economical union. This is part and parcel of an economical union in concept.

for instance the Euro currency has decimated spain the cost of living was great in Spain with the peseta

My Uncle used to love peseta and the dratma. He said about the good old days where their economies were unable to support the currency, so each year when he went on holiday, he used to be able to buy a lot more goods for his money. being able to afford a lot more luxurious holidays, whilst the common Greek and Spanish were being failed by their states. He dislikes how the Euro has made things a lot more expensive over in these countries, because the workers are getting fairer wages and incomes reflecting European averages.

This not a given, this is speculation.

You're correct, it is. It is a pretty good one at that. Especially with the Tories in government. I really wish to be wrong.

[Husar]

And you think The EU commisison will make all this better?

I think a more integrated Europe will be more likely to prevent this and threatening to leave is the opposite direction from closer integration.
I don't think the EU commission will fix US cops arresting people for jaywalking though, if you meant that.

[Lizardo]

As more and more EU countries use referendums the EU will disintegrate. News just in the ECHR has declared illegal migrants can not be jailed.
http://www.breitbart.com/news/eu-cou...not-be-jailed/

[Fragony]

This monster will fall, for many it's the question of 'what now'

[Pannonian]

When people spam youtube videos to make their case, you know they don't understand their own arguments. First the SNP, then Corbyn, now Brexit. Mindless cultlike fanatics, with the common theme of thinking that number of youtube videos and social media followers equals a substantial case.

[Greyblades]

There was a question hour this evening on ITV where Farage and Cameron each had a half hour of answering questions from a diverse audience ranging from nurses, buisness owners, students and others. Find here:



A good showing for both parties I think, I am somewhat biased for farage but I do think cameron held his own fairly well, though I do think it was a bad idea to found some of the argument for staying on faith in the ability or willingness of the current establisment to stand up to the EU.
I was somewhat perturbed by the amount of leeway the moderator gave that girl who tried to pain Farage as racist.

[Lizardo]

There was a question hour this evening on ITV where Farage.

A good showing for both parties I think, I am somewhat biased for farage but I do think cameron held his own fairly well, though I do think it was a bad idea to found some of the argument for staying on faith in the ability or willingness of the current establisment to stand up to the EU.
I was somewhat perturbed by the amount of leeway the moderator gave that girl who tried to pain Farage as racist.

ITV knew what they were getting with her that's why they selected that racist, yeah she totally disrecpted Nigel.


CAMERON IS A PUSSY COULDNT 1VS 1 FARAGE AGAIN. this was a watered down confession in a church!! It's like he cant share a stage with an opponent on numerous debates its rigged for what he wants.

[Gilrandir]

This monster will fall, for many it's the question of 'what now'

Another monster, this time from the East, to whom you will succumb.

[Elmetiacos]

And she is really indignat that the Turks had a brawl in the parliament. The Japanese and Taiwanese parliaments do so from time to time and ...? Should the UK stop any contacts with them?

Old men like me can even remember when there was a brawl in the UK parliament, involving Michael Hesseltine picking up the ceremonial mace and threatening to throw it at the Labour Party opposite...

[Lizardo]

Officially converting to Islam, can't beat them join 'em

[InsaneApache]

I thought this was quite good. Just a bit of fun.