Brexit Thread

[Beskar]

Socialists are mentally ill.

I recommend reading the following website, because such a comment is disappointing.
http://www.time-to-change.org.uk/men...lth-and-stigma

Especially for someone who identifies their issues and heritage by the moniker: InsaneApache.

[a completely inoffensive name]

[Greyblades]

The retort to scientists worrying over budget:

[Greyblades]

Significant preferences that may as well be piss in the wind, the trust to give those promises meaning is long gone both with brussels. The EU is constantly pushing for more integration and has a disregard for the decisions of the member states as shown with the first Irish referendum on the lisbon treaty. With a combined attitude of "this time they'll do it" in the EU and a general trend among our politicians to not consult the electorate when signing the country to integratory agreements, we cannot trust that the promises will be upheld by either side for very long.

Yes, that is correct. France, the Netherlands and several other countries postponed the free movement of those "new EU workers" for several years, which was allowed at the time under EU law. Britain voluntarily decided against these measures and instantly became the favourite destination.
Since that happened during Tony Blair's run as Prime Minister and seeing as how he is widely disliked nowadays, this is of course no obstacle for Brexiteers to blame Brussels for everything.

Some people also need to educate themselves on the difference between a Visum and the ability to migrate somewhere...and the fact that for the UK it doesn't matter one toss to whom the EU offers a visum, because it's only valid for the Schengen area.

Not being part of the schingen area means we can still check people's passports when they try to enter the country. It does not change the fact that being part of the Eu means we cannot refuse EU citizens from immigrating here.

Some people need to educate themselves on the difference beteen border controls and immigration controls and also need to an attitude adjustment.

That's what I thought, that the we'd opted out of the free movement rule, that any such free movement was decided by the Downing Street government rather than by Brussels. But as Greyblades explained in an earlier post, his intention is to stick it to all politicians by means of Brexit, so it doesn't matter whether something Brexiters dislike is decided by Brussels or Downing Street; everything that is bad is blamed on membership of the EU.

I am sure it is comforting to reassure yourself that your side is sane and their side isnt but it is quite ugly to witness..

I do not like the EU, I do not like politicians who consider it more important than thier own country's well being and self determination, I consider makng those politicians panic a bonus but it most certainly is not my main goal. An anticipation of well deserved schadenfreude does not automatically make me an ill informed idiot blaming the EU for all my problems at the behest of another politician and your assumption is frankly depressing to witness in a fellow countryman.

I have made it clear multiple times I blame our problems on our own politicians as well as the EU so it is somewhat idiotic for you to claim otherwise. Thier time will come in 2020, 2025, 2030 and on and on but the EU can only be dealt with here and now.

[Gilrandir]

a general trend among our politicians to not consult the electorate when signing the country to integratory agreements

When you vote for some politicians you impart them with the authority to decide the course of the country. They don't have to ask you for permission on any issue which is within their responsibility. If you don't like decisions they adopt, vote them out next time.

[Greyblades]

We did, that's what the conservatives won for and they're now resisting this tooth and nail. They cant be trusted to keep the status quo any more than the alternatives so we must remove the option. This referendum is how we do that.

We want the EU politicians out and they wont allow a next time.

[Gilrandir]

We did, that's what the conservatives won for and they're now resisting this tooth and nail. They cant be trusted to keep the status quo any more than the alternatives so we must remove the option. This referendum is how we do that.

We want the EU politicians out and they wont allow a next time.

According to recent polls the "we" vs the "them" is about 52% vs 48%. So I wouldn't be so bold as to extend your opinion to the whole nation (especially Scotland). As someone here put it (referring to Ukrainians, though) the British are a deeply divided nation.

As for removing the option, it is always the best decision. Let's remove football, and we will see no fan clashes any more. Let's remove gays, and we will witness no gaybar shootings any more. Let's remove Muslims and we will suffer no terror acts any more. Removing a cause always works.

[Greyblades]

Those suggestions would work, they are last resorts in the situation where all other alternatives have and will fail, and continued persistance is untennable which is what we are in with the EU.

You have one poll saying close remain, I have one saying certain leave.

[Pannonian]

We did, that's what the conservatives won for and they're now resisting this tooth and nail. They cant be trusted to keep the status quo any more than the alternatives so we must remove the option. This referendum is how we do that.

We want the EU politicians out and they wont allow a next time.

That's the rationale for why any intention to leave must mean taking action now. Ask why we should leave though, and the reasons make less sense.

Hence the fears about being flooded with immigrants because the EU imposes them on us. Except that the EU has no power to do any such thing as we're not in the Schengen zone, and any wave of immigrants is the decision of Downing Street, not Brussels. Or the fear that Turkey's accession will mean a wave of unsuitable EU members entering the UK. Except, as Furunculus points out in the Turkey thread, Turkey wasn't accepted back in the days before Erdogan's lunacy and IS, and indeed he blames the EU for not including Turkey as IHHO they should. Perhaps the two of you should have a chat to straighten things out, as one of you blames the EU for possibly accepting Turkey in the future as a reason for Brexit, while the other blames the EU for not accepting Turkey as a reason for Brexit.

Never mind about the mutually contradictory reasoning, the common theme is blaming the EU and thus necessitating Brexit. Once the UK is outside the EU, the EU will no longer be able to force the Schengen rules on the UK, which the UK isn't subject to anyway. Nor will it be able to introduce a wave of Turks into EU countries. Even though it's decided not to back when Turkey was rather more acceptable than now. I wonder when arguments about the euro will crop up, which the UK isn't subject to either.

[Greyblades]

Red herring: the schingen zone just stops a nation from having border checks. The right to live and work in the UK by EU citizens was laid out in the Immigration (European Economic Area) Regulations 2000 (i assume act).

Yep most of our problems stem from our successive governments attempts to steer towards integration with the EU Brussels didnt exactly dissuade them from adopting thier faulty ideals to fit in with the club but the fault does indeed lie with the politicians charging towards the cliff like so many lemmings. We gave them many chances but the political class appears too invested in the EU to undo it on their own so we must remove thier end goal and shake things up.

They couldnt play nice so now they cant play at all. To hell with thier tantrums and threats.

[Kralizec]

Not being part of the schingen area means we can still check people's passports when they try to enter the country. It does not change the fact that being part of the Eu means we cannot refuse EU citizens from immigrating here.

Some people need to educate themselves on the difference beteen border controls and immigration controls and also need to an attitude adjustmen.

Seems I misread part of your statements, my mistake. A lot of people on the interwebs that talk about it in the context of Brexit discussions have no idea what it actually means. Turkey isn't going to become a member state anytime soon. Even if Erdogan leaves tomorrow and Turkey becomes a paradise with rainbows and fluffy unicorns overnight, which is unlikely, it could still easily take 6-8 years before their entry for the plain reason that it's a lengthy process.

As for the current wave of asylum seekers that has reached the EU...even if the majority of those people get residence permits, they will not have unqualified freedom of movement in the EU since they are not yet EU citizens. That would take many more years, for instance in the Netherlands you have to be legally resident for 5 years before you can naturalize. And the idea that those migrants will hop over to the UK en masse a soon as they're able is just fantasy, plain and simple.

As for the current batch of workers that have already migrated to the UK:

1) all the data shows that EU migrants contribute more in taxes than they receive, and are actually more often employed than natives
2) I don't see that there's a problem at all...but even so, British politicians are to blame for the scale of the "problem", not the EU
3) it's hardly fair to demand that the EU gives up one of its core achievements (freedom of movement) to counter the consequenses of British failures in policy

[Greyblades]

Seems I misread part of your statements, my mistake. A lot of people on the interwebs that talk about it in the context of Brexit discussions have no idea what it actually means. Turkey isn't going to become a member state anytime soon. Even if Erdogan leaves tomorrow and Turkey becomes a paradise with rainbows and fluffy unicorns overnight, which is unlikely, it could still easily take 6-8 years before their entry for the plain reason that it's a lengthy process.

As for the current wave of asylum seekers that has reached the EU...even if the majority of those people get residence permits, they will not have unqualified freedom of movement in the EU since they are not yet EU citizens. That would take many more years, for instance in the Netherlands you have to be legally resident for 5 years before you can naturalize. And the idea that those migrants will hop over to the UK en masse a soon as they're able is just fantasy, plain and simple.

As I said: "give it time".

As for the current batch of workers that have already migrated to the UK:

1) all the data shows that EU migrants contribute more in taxes than they receive, and are actually more often employed than natives

...yeah to the detriment of the natives, they're coming in faster than we can employ or house them and thier lower expectations in standard of pay and living is helping them outcompete the locals.

2) I don't see that there's a problem at all...but even so, British politicians are to blame for the scale of the "problem", not the EU

The scale of the problem is proporitionate to the number of immigrants, and right now we cant put a cap on them to keep it sane, and that happened because our politicians started repeating the EU mantra, and that happened because they're idiots and/or greedy.

3) it's hardly fair to demand that the EU gives up one of its core achievements (freedom of movement) to counter the consequenses of British failures in policy

Yes it is, we should leave.

It was a great achievment when you could maintain the borders controls with non members, when they started to fail the core achievment became a flaw.