Brexit Thread

[Husar]

Not that sure about the brexit camp disliking Polish people it sounds like framing to me, attempting to make brexit supporters look lower-class white-trash. Maybe some are but most probably aren't, just ordinary people who (rightfully) hate being told what to do by the ultra-undemocratic EU, and legitimate worries about the tsunami of migrants from islamic countries and how the childless mutti wants everyone to fix things for her, the brexit-camp doesn't exist of intellectual lightweights they have a good story, remain-camp never got any further than insunuations.

When you make an entire post with no real argument and then accuse "the other side" of not having any arguments....

Sadly there will allways be the sort of idiot that cannot tell the blame for unrestrained immigration lies not with the poles coming but the politicians letting them in. But as exhibited they are a tiny minority.

You may blame the politicians but you're still saying you want no Poles.
Unless you actually meant poles, in which case you shouldn't have sold all the steel works to China.

Realize ther demands for freedom of movement are unreasonable with the situation they have created and stop demanding it?

I'm just pointing out how the EU is still sticking to the same behaviour that drove the UK out 2 weeks later , They are rather slow learners.

Their demands are reasonable, it's the English who have to realize that their Brexit is unreasonable and that sticking to this xenophobic behavior means not having a future. But they pride themselves on being slow learners ("Our democracy developed so slowly but it's so great now!"), so....

So no middlewear?

There's no future for the middlewear, it's all replaced by digitalization.

[Greyblades]

You may blame the politicians but you're still saying you want no Poles.
Unless you actually meant poles, in which case you shouldn't have sold all the steel works to China.

No I want fewer poles, and anything else for that matter, I find to allow immigration to reamain greater than jobs and housing growth to be counter productive whne trying to tackle the problem of unemployment and homelessness.

Their demands are reasonable, it's the English who have to realize that their Brexit is unreasonable and that sticking to this xenophobic behavior means not having a future. But they pride themselves on being slow learners ("Our democracy developed so slowly but it's so great now!"), so....

Your definition of unreasonable is abnormal, no wonder those that share it are making the EU unpopular.

[Fragony]

Of course I have arguments Hussie, and if you disagree with them you plunge the world into chaos and hate peace, and are probably gay.

I am just as good as europhiles in debating.

[Husar]

No I want fewer poles, and anything else for that matter, I find to allow immigration to reamain greater than jobs and housing growth to be counter productive whne trying to tackle the problem of unemployment and homelessness.

How many is fewer and why are people in Britain homeless in the first place? Are you saying there were no unemployed or homeless people in Britain before the Poles came? Tell me at which point before the Poles came you would have solved this and how that would have worked. There has to be something, such as steadily decreasing rates and/or an increase when the Polish flood came or something like that, no?

Your definition of unreasonable is abnormal, no wonder those that share it are making the EU unpopular.

Your definition of unreasonable is unreasonable, no wonder you Brexiters are wrong and incredibly unpopular outside England.

Of course I have arguments Hussie, and if you disagree with them you plunge the world into chaos and hate peace, and are probably gay.

I am just as good as europhiles in debating.

So far we aren't really debating, you just make statements and assure me that you have arguments which you never seem to mention. So I say you're wrong. And why do you mention being gay in the same sentence as a lot of bad things? Are you insinuating that being gay is a bad thing?

[Pannonian]

How many is fewer and why are people in Britain homeless in the first place? Are you saying there were no unemployed or homeless people in Britain before the Poles came? Tell me at which point before the Poles came you would have solved this and how that would have worked. There has to be something, such as steadily decreasing rates and/or an increase when the Polish flood came or something like that, no?

EU migrants, as a group, contribute more in taxes than they draw in benefits. The British state, and by extension the British people, profit from the EU migrant demographic in the UK. If the British government has not been using that profit wisely, that's the responsibility of the British government, not the EU. But it's easier to blame the foreigners.

Unlike the EU migrant population in the UK, which is mostly young and working and thus tax paying, I'd imagine the British demographic in, let's say Spain, is considerably older and less of a net positive fiscally. Any negotiations about the deportation of EU citizens from the UK will probably see the reciprocal expulsion of these UK immigrants (so-called "ex-pats") back to the UK, with the loss of tax paying EU citizens and the addition of non-tax-paying UK citizens.

[Fragony]

A lot of immigrants from eastern Europe come to work yeah. But taken as a whole 80% of the immigrants still live on wealthfar after 10 years, that's here mind you, it costs billions a year

The childless mutti's litttle children will never stop being a burden at best, but a lot who followed her birdcall think a little hmmmm different about some things, ghetto import

[Pannonian]

A lot of immigrants from eastern Europe come to work yeah. But taken as a whole 80% of the immigrants still live on wealthfar after 10 years, that's here mind you, it costs billions a year

The childless mutti's litttle children will never stop being a burden at best, but a lot who followed her birdcall think a little hmmmm different about some things, ghetto import

There may be arguments for e Nexit. But those arguments don't apply to a Brexit. EU migrants pay more in taxes to the British state than they claim in benefits. The UK's main problems with immigration come from non-EU migrants. Which has been under the full control of the UK government all this time, outside the EU's responsibility.

[Pannonian]

No I want fewer poles, and anything else for that matter, I find to allow immigration to reamain greater than jobs and housing growth to be counter productive whne trying to tackle the problem of unemployment and homelessness.

Your definition of unreasonable is abnormal, no wonder those that share it are making the EU unpopular.

So much for the protestations that it was sovereignty that drove the Brexit vote. Sooner or later Brexiters let slip that it's all about the foreigners in their midst, taking their jobs and houses.

[Kralizec]

Realize ther demands for freedom of movement are unreasonable with the situation they have created and stop demanding it?

No, what is unreasonable is breaking a deal and then accusing the other side of being unreasonable for responding in kind.

If anything it speaks well of the EU that they're putting their foot down. Countries get away with violating the rules too often as it is. If the Swiss people don't want free movement of persons then the EU single market is not suited for them and they should negotiate for a less far reaching agreement instead; i.e. a trade agreement and nothing more.

[Greyblades]

So much for the protestations that it was sovereignty that drove the Brexit vote. Sooner or later Brexiters let slip that it's all about the foreigners in their midst, taking their jobs and houses.

Have you considered the brexiters are human being and capable of having more than one reason for wanting something done? Have you considered that you can hold opinions on immigration that arent "let them all in" and still not be a racist?

Have you considered that you are wasting everyones time with such idiotic insinuations?

No, what is unreasonable is breaking a deal and then accusing the other side of being unreasonable for responding in kind.

If anything it speaks well of the EU that they're putting their foot down. Countries get away with violating the rules too often as it is. If the Swiss people don't want free movement of persons then the EU single market is not suited for them and they should negotiate for a less far reaching agreement instead; i.e. a trade agreement and nothing more.

Isnt that what they're trying to do, renegociate? And the EU is refusing to trade without enforcing freedom of movment, so yeah unreasonable.

[Husar]

Unlike the EU migrant population in the UK, which is mostly young and working and thus tax paying, I'd imagine the British demographic in, let's say Spain, is considerably older and less of a net positive fiscally. Any negotiations about the deportation of EU citizens from the UK will probably see the reciprocal expulsion of these UK immigrants (so-called "ex-pats") back to the UK, with the loss of tax paying EU citizens and the addition of non-tax-paying UK citizens.

To be fair, if they're retired, they just siphon their retirement money out of the UK and pay a lot of sales taxes in Spain while they're also helping the Spanish economy with their consumption (money which is then ideally/hopefully also used to pay corporate and income taxes). Income tax is not the only tax there is.

Isnt that what they're trying to do, renegociate? And the EU is refusing to trade without enforcing freedom of movment, so yeah unreasonable.

How or why is it unreasonable? Is it not working for the EU so far?
You're just being unreasonable because the EU can demand what it want, you're free to not accept it, but if you say it's unreasonable you have to explain why exactly. So far you just repeat the claim that it were unreasonable without giving a good reason, that's unreasonable.

[Greyblades]

How or why is it unreasonable? Is it not working for the EU so far?
You're just being unreasonable because the EU can demand what it want, you're free to not accept it, but if you say it's unreasonable you have to explain why exactly. So far you just repeat the claim that it were unreasonable without giving a good reason, that's unreasonable.

Is it working so far? There's a camp in calais, a multitude of ghettos and an ongoing terrorist campaign that indicate otherwise. That's not even getting into the issue of employment and housing. Christ we've been going on about this topic for months any reasonable person would think it would have sunk in that freedom of movment wasnt such a cool idea when you started to include poor nations and any random migrant that managed to cross the border.

Also I dont get why you and pannonian keep going on about it being their right to do so, as if that has an automatic "reasonable" stamp.

You have the right to burn your larder in a famine but it is still unreasonable for you to do so.

[Pannonian]

Is it working so far? There's a camp in calais, a multitude of ghettos and an ongoing terrorist campaign that indicate otherwise. That's not even getting into the issue of employment and housing. Christ we've been going on about this topic for months any reasonable person would think it would have sunk in that freedom of movment wasnt such a cool idea when you started to include poor nations and any random migrant that managed to cross the border.

Also I dont get why you and pannonian keep going on about it being their right to do so, as if that has an automatic "reasonable" stamp.

You have the right to burn your larder in a famine but it is still unreasonable for you to do so.

How is all that the EU's responsibility? All that you talk about has been within the UK government's power to do something about it, even inside the EU.

And AFAIK, it's free movement of labour, not free movement of individuals. The UK never signed up to the Schengen zone which allows free movement of individuals. The UK has rules in place to ensure that EU citizens in the UK are indeed labour, or else self-sufficient. Otherwise they lose residency rights.

[Husar]

Is it working so far? There's a camp in calais, a multitude of ghettos and an ongoing terrorist campaign that indicate otherwise. That's not even getting into the issue of employment and housing. Christ we've been going on about this topic for months any reasonable person would think it would have sunk in that freedom of movment wasnt such a cool idea when you started to include poor nations and any random migrant that managed to cross the border.

So then if London wants to wall itself off from the poor areas around it, that is perfectly reasonable, too. After all that would help London fight its unemployment and homelessness. Obviously a homeless Londoner is more important to a fellow Londoner than a homeless guy from Leeds for example. Opening London up to all the unemployed and homeless poor people from Leeds is not gonna help London solve its problems.

Having nations instead of tribes really wasn't such a cool idea when they began to include poor tribes, was it?

Also I dont get why you and pannonian keep going on about it being their right to do so, as if that has an automatic "reasonable" stamp.

You have the right to burn your larder in a famine but it is still unreasonable for you to do so.

The issue is that you still haven't explained what you mean by reasonable. As I've shown above, making up arbitrary borders and saying that it is only reasonable to help the people within one, is not reasonable because one can make up other arbitrary borders until Kingdom come. Even within your country the rich may build walled houses and ask why they should help the poor people who live outside the walls of their house. This happens every day and you still don't see that this wouldn't somehow magically not be so if you just had a glorious nation state.

Why do you think tax evasion exists? Because your fellow British nationals who are rich are so much more eager to help your homeless and unemployed than the EU bureaucrats? What is the major reason tax evasion is possible? The existence of other nation states and the non-cooperation between them.