Brexit Thread

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Hold on, you stepped in to support some dodgy statistics which someone used to represent something they didn't represent. You then went off on a flight of fancy with sentimental notions about a "white" commonwealth and imaginary trade/immigration deals.
So who exactly is going with preconceptions and making no effort to try to understand?
Because as far as I can see that fits your approach entirely.

See - this is what I mean. I didn't defend Greyblades' point - I merely called for decorum and pointed out that'd at least tried to use some statistics. You completely dismissed any suggestion that house prices might even be an indicator of the wealth of an area when in fact it is widely recognised that they are, albeit hardly a definitive one.

I then made my own, completely seperate points. This was indicated by paragraph breaks.

He is not, at least not entirely.
It's just funny because when I get similar feelings about people whose opinions he shares, he never understands and treats me as though I were bullying them or something.
But anyway, I think I told you before that your tone is very aggressive and I can see why he feels that way.
I don't think you have bad intentions or even that you're wrong, you just have a way of talking to people that is aggressive and sometimes condescending. Not that it can't happen to anyone here, but there are some extremes.

By the way, I have to say when a "conservative" talks about hurt feelings, it's always very ironic, they're usually the ones who tell others to "man up" etc.
I hope you don't take it the wrong way PVC, I think you're a good man, even though you're often wrong.

If you are suggesting that you sometimes find me as difficult to converse with as I find Legs then then I'd have to say I'm something just short of mortified, and ashamed.

For the record, I don't think I've ever told anyone to "Man up", I'm not that sort of conservative or that sort of Christian.

Perhaps the problem is notions based on sentimentality rather than fact and reason. Emotions are not a good basis for a discussion and they bring a personal attachment and preconceptions with them. Hence the "hurting my feelings" line.
An example would be to look at conference, or some of the comments here on how Brexit is a success. Pure emoptional drivel with no foundation in reality.
conference was rapturous with the announcement of a possible date and declarations that negotiations would start now. The reality , re stated agin by the EU that there can be no negotiations till article 50 is put in. Same with the emotional "Brexit is a success all that bad stuff didn't happen" nonsense, when the reality is that Brexit simply hasn't happened yet.

Everything I highlighted here is offensive, it's all also at least partially redundant to your argument. Your tone is, at best, scornful. I realise that may be perceived as a cruel thing to say and I am genuinely sorry for that but in my view if you participate in debate in this way it is harmful to others.

A foundation of the Backroom's debating style is that we try to treat each other online in the same way as we would face to face. That means trying to avoid saying anything that's going to make someone else either storm out or want to throw something at you.

[Husar]

If you are suggesting that you sometimes find me as difficult to converse with as I find Legs then then I'd have to say I'm something just short of mortified, and ashamed.

For the record, I don't think I've ever told anyone to "Man up", I'm not that sort of conservative or that sort of Christian.

No worries, I was suggesting nothing of the sort.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

No worries, I was suggesting nothing of the sort.

[Legs]

See - this is what I mean. I didn't defend Greyblades' point - I merely called for decorum and pointed out that'd at least tried to use some statistics. You completely dismissed any suggestion that house prices might even be an indicator of the wealth of an area when in fact it is widely recognised that they are, albeit hardly a definitive one.

House prices may in some part be an indicator of wealth, but they are not an indicator of a residents disposable income, in fact if you look at the link the price fluctuation highlighted for the period is driven by people who may not even be residents of the area, as it notes its people seeking to avoid the upcoming tax on property they don't live in.
Remember the highlighted words, they are yours.
The key factor in assessing disposable income is income, without that you can't do anything with the statistics on house price, then you would need to factor in owner occupation, with and without outstanding mortgage, then the rental sector, then social rental sector then local charges, then transport costs and on and on and on.

The statistic provided means nothing in relation to local wealth or local disposable income, indeed with the article used it doesn't even mean local people.

Everything I highlighted here is offensive

How is it offensive?

A foundation of the Backroom's debating style is that we try to treat each other online in the same way as we would face to face. That means trying to avoid saying anything that's going to make someone else either storm out or want to throw something at you.

Try real life face to face. For example I had an interesting discussion with an archtiect and two engineers today, words you describe as offensive were used plus some actually offensive ones, no one stormed out or wanted to throw things, an agreement was reached on the contended issues based on practicality and facts.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

House prices may in some part be an indicator of wealth, but they are not an indicator of a residents disposable income, in fact if you look at the link the price fluctuation highlighted for the period is driven by people who may not even be residents of the area, as it notes its people seeking to avoid the upcoming tax on property they don't live in.
Remember the highlighted words, they are yours.
The key factor in assessing disposable income is income, without that you can't do anything with the statistics on house price, then you would need to factor in owner occupation, with and without outstanding mortgage, then the rental sector, then social rental sector then local charges, then transport costs and on and on and on.

The statistic provided means nothing in relation to local wealth or local disposable income, indeed with the article used it doesn't even mean local people.

House price indicates rental price, rental price indicates disposable income, as do the cost of mortgage re-payments, actually. Greyblades' argument was flawed in its simplicity, not its logic.

How is it offensive?

I was tempted to refuse to dignify this with a response but that would be pointless.

It was offensive because you dismissed the feelings of others as irrelevant, then described their opinion as drivel and nonsense, which are both insults.

Try real life face to face. For example I had an interesting discussion with an archtiect and two engineers today, words you describe as offensive were used plus some actually offensive ones, no one stormed out or wanted to throw things, an agreement was reached on the contended issues based on practicality and facts.

I try to be nice to people in real life - I get more hugs and free drinks that way.

[Pannonian]

House price indicates rental price, rental price indicates disposable income, as do the cost of mortgage re-payments, actually. Greyblades' argument was flawed in its simplicity, not its logic.

It's ironic that his simplicity breaks down where he tried to introduce complexity into the equation. Complexity of the sort Greyblades tried to introduce only makes sense when one understands the context of the data. In this case, he missed out the history of London and why certain areas are heavily non-white, and the nature of house prices in Greater London. In short, he tried to explain to a Londoner why certain things are in London, without himself understanding what he's talking about. Or my original point, which is that his assertion that Europhilism is the preserve of the white upper middle class who never have to face an immigrant, is contradicted by the fact that the most immigrant-heavy region in the UK was heavily pro-EU. And one of the reasons I have little respect for Greyblades is this argument of his.

Because the EU is how they got there, duh, same reason mexican immigrants vote democrat in the states. I refer to the Europhiles who buy into the ideology and supported inviting the immigrants in in the first place.

I don't have much beef with you, as you start with your own preconceptions, and your arguments, within these parameters, are broadly consistent. Contrast with Greyblades's circular argument, which starts from a wrong presumption (his assertion about the white upper middle class and Europhilism), then proceeds with easily disprovable further assertions to dismiss concrete evidence. This circle of wrongness is typical of post-truth politics, seen here in his argument for Brexit, but seen even more clearly in arguments for Corbyn (see Brenus dismissing all evidence against Corbyn as by nature biased). Concretely disprovable presumptions that serve to reinforce each other and shut out all evidence that may contradict them. Ironically, this mode of thinking was what led Blair towards Iraq in the first place. Even back then, I thought that form of argument was self-evidently stupid, so unsurprisingly I have a similarly low opinion of anyone who goes down the same line of thinking.

[Legs]

House price indicates rental price, ,





I try to be nice to people in real life - I get more hugs and free drinks that way.

No it doesn't. Rental price indicates rental price.
The two can be entirely unrelated

rental price indicates disposable income

No it doesn't, rental price is a factor in disposable income with additional information on net income and other expenses.

as do the cost of mortgage re-payments, actually.

Yes, and?
Are they presented at all?
Did anyone mention mortages in relation to housing and disposable income before the person you are quoting?

Greyblades' argument was flawed in its simplicity, not its logic.

That is not correct, it was flawed in both its simplicity and its logic. As has been demonstrated.

It was offensive because you dismissed the feelings of others as irrelevant, then described their opinion as drivel and nonsense, which are both insults.

Feelings can be irrelevant if they don't support the viewpoint. Drivel and nonsense are words used to describe notions that make no sense. If you take no sense you can see where the word nonsense fits exactly.
How are they insulting?

I try to be nice to people in real life - I get more hugs and free drinks that way.

And if you take the example I put up, there was no animosity, language which you would condider extremely insulting was used, a practical solution was agreed, I make more money, they make more money, which means we all get free drinks.
Thats real life.

[Gilrandir]

For example I had an interesting discussion with an archtiect and two engineers today, words you describe as offensive were used plus some actually offensive ones, no one stormed out or wanted to throw things, an agreement was reached on the contended issues based on practicality and facts.

Were they tied to a chair?

[Montmorency]

Were they tied to a chair?

Crowbars may have been involved. Their empirical, uh, force, is undeniable.

[Gilrandir]

Crowbars may have been involved. Their empirical, uh, force, is undeniable.

I would wager it was baseball bats.

[Fragony]

Congratulations UK, you are the #1 best performers in the G7 according to the IMF, the doomsday europhiles crave so much will have to wait for a while all is going just, even better since you don't get to have a notorious drunkard licking your face

[Legs]

Trade deals are always good

Yet you vote to abandon one.

trade deals with countries with similar cultures who are already your close allies are much easier to negotiate than trade deals with the US or China.

Will a trade deal with the "white" countries mean they insist you get rid of agricultural subsidies?
How will that sit with the rural tory heartland?

[Legs]

Congratulations UK, you are the #1 best performers in the G7 according to the IMF, the doomsday europhiles crave so much will have to wait for a while all is going just, even better since you don't get to have a notorious drunkard licking your face

What did the IMF actually say.
But look on the bright side, it's a bargain, it only cost £170 billion to do it...well until november when they have to pump more money into the system again to stop it tanking

[Husar]

Congratulations UK, you are the #1 best performers in the G7 according to the IMF, the doomsday europhiles crave so much will have to wait for a while all is going just, even better since you don't get to have a notorious drunkard licking your face

Are you by any chance a speechwriter for Trump?