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  1. #1
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK referendum: Out

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    Mercantilism isn't equivalent to capitalism.
    I labeled it "markets/capitalism" precisely for a reason. I wanted it to be understood that I was referring to the divers forms of market exchange (capitalism, mercantilism, barter, etc.) that rely on negotiation (implicit or explicit) and the individual protecting their own value in the exchange. I was not trying to quibble over which form was in ascendance at which point in history. I was contrasting it with efforts at directed or controlled economies.

    There are always points of time where some expert or cadre of experts believes that they can direct/control things better than the controlled chaos of the marketplace in order to promote the greater good. Such efforts have always fallen short, even if they enjoyed short term success, and we revert back to some form of markets/capitalist exchange.
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

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  2. #2
    Senior Member Senior Member Brenus's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK referendum: Out

    "Greece and Rome basically ran on Capitalism and the entire medieval period was a debate over capitalism." So Greece, Rome and England are the world...
    Joke apart, you should read a little bit more about Middle Ages (Guilds), and about the how titles were distributed. And of course, later, why the new bourgeoisie wanted titles as well...
    And then, you can explain the 3 orders following St Augustin.
    Capitalism: Wealth creating more wealth, according the definition from the "genius of Humanity" aka Google. or "Capitalism is an economic system based on private ownership of the means of production and their operation for profit. Characteristics central to capitalism include private property, capital accumulation, wage labor, voluntary exchange, a price system, and competitive markets." from the same.
    Private property in Medieval Ages: Not really. The 100 years war started because a king confiscated the land of his vassal. In the Tsarist Russia, the Emperor (Autocrat) owned all the lands and lands were redistributed in the Mir System/Obshchina until the Revolution. Even in UK today, (but I might be mistaken) the land still belongs to the Queen who rents it to you for building your house or cultivate it (The Crown is the ultimate owner of all land in England and Wales (including the Isles of Scilly): all other owners hold an estate in land).
    A NO is not enough, you have to give your definition of it. Market did exist before capitalism, whatever your exchange system was, cocoa (Inca), rice (Japan), sea-shells (Kingdom of Kongo). And we can debate if the Empire of China was capitalist: the government was bureaucratic and absolutist, order and subordination, so was India and the Caste system.
    And as a probable player of Shogun, you are aware of what was the economical system, warriors (and honor) at the top, and merchants at the very low level. Far from Capitalism indeed.
    I think you mix-up market economy and capitalism.
    Last edited by Brenus; 11-02-2016 at 08:30.
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  3. #3
    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK referendum: Out

    Quote Originally Posted by Brenus View Post
    The 100 years war started because a king confiscated the land of his vassal.
    You should read a little bit more on the causes of the said war. I recommend Jonathan Sumption's "Hundred Years war". Four volumes have been published, but the causes are dwelt upon in Volume I.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brenus View Post
    In the Tsarist Russia, the Emperor (Autocrat) owned all the lands and lands were redistributed in the Mir System/Obshchina until the Revolution.
    Your statement is not accurate.
    1. It totally omits landowners (pomeshchiki) who owned most of arable land.
    2. The Mir system is about distributing lands OWNED ONLY BY PEASANTS whose lands were significantly smaller (than the pomeshchikis' ones) and of worse quality.
    3. The Mir system started to deteriorate by 1905 and was demolished not in 1917 but by Stolypin's reforms prior to WWI.
    4. I'm not sure that the Emperor was the owner of ALL lands of the Empire. It was not true of medieval countries (and Russia was one until at least 1861, and perhaps even until 1917) where the monarch was just one of the landowners.
    Last edited by Gilrandir; 11-02-2016 at 14:29.
    Quote Originally Posted by Suraknar View Post
    The article exists for a reason yes, I did not write it...

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