Brexit Thread

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

What's the next excuse?

There isn't one, that's the point.

You've listed a couple of instances where the UK overturned or did not implement EU regulations, in keeping with the white paper's statement that the UK had never actually lost sovereignty. In return for not having those disagreements which had ended in the UK's favour, we've left the single market, meaning we will no longer be competitive in the market where 50% of our exports go.

And note that by far the biggest reason voters have cited as the reason for Leave is immigration, ie. they want less of it. The reason we are leaving the single market is because the government recognises this as a non-negotiable point. If you disagree, and freedom of movement isn't as important a point as flexibility of regulations, then perhaps you can write to the PM and explain that FoM is actually negotiable after all, and thus access to the single market is possible. Perhaps we can have another referendum clarifying this point. Perhaps this second referendum will clarify that, yes, the UK is indeed xenophobic after all, and we're willing to wreck our economy if it means fewer of these nasty foreigners will be here. As it is, the government takes this as a given.

Like I said - excuses.

As to the Immigration argument - people need to get over this. Wanting less immigration does not make you evil in a country as overcrowded as this one.

[Husar]

As to the Immigration argument - people need to get over this. Wanting less immigration does not make you evil in a country as overcrowded as this one.

???

http://www.indexmundi.com/g/r.aspx?v=21000

[Montmorency]

???

http://www.indexmundi.com/g/r.aspx?v=21000

Using country-wide densities rarely tells you anything useful, as though land and property and people were fungible.

[Pannonian]

Using country-wide densities rarely tells you anything useful, as though land and property and people were fungible.

The largest and most densely populated city in the UK was heavily Remain. So was the second largest. In London, the most central (and thus densely populated) areas were Remain. Some of the suburbs were Leave.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

???

http://www.indexmundi.com/g/r.aspx?v=21000

We are the 50-most populous in the world, and many of the most populous above us are either horribly overcrowded and suffer socially as a result (Japan, Hong Kong), Micro-Stare or Enclaves (Monaco, Gibraltar, the Vatican), or tiny Island nations (Bermuda, Malta).

At the same time there are ~30 fewer people per square kilometre in Germany and ~120 fewer in France.

Let me give you a concrete example. I live in the City of Exeter, I have friends living in the village of Pinhoe, it's about an hour's walk between the two but over the last four years that walk has gone from about 50% fields to 25% fields and dropping. In another five years Exeter will effectively swallow Pinhoe whole.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@50.74.../data=!3m1!1e3

Google Earth actually shows you the bit under development, you can actually see the boundaries between village and city being blurred.

The largest and most densely populated city in the UK was heavily Remain. So was the second largest. In London, the most central (and thus densely populated) areas were Remain. Some of the suburbs were Leave.

Londoners don't appreciate how horribly smelly and cramped London appears to oursiders, they are immune to the sensation of being "squashed" because they are already so closely packed.

[Husar]

We are the 50-most populous in the world, and many of the most populous above us are either horribly overcrowded and suffer socially as a result (Japan, Hong Kong), Micro-Stare or Enclaves (Monaco, Gibraltar, the Vatican), or tiny Island nations (Bermuda, Malta).

At the same time there are ~30 fewer people per square kilometre in Germany and ~120 fewer in France.

Let me give you a concrete example. I live in the City of Exeter, I have friends living in the village of Pinhoe, it's about an hour's walk between the two but over the last four years that walk has gone from about 50% fields to 25% fields and dropping. In another five years Exeter will effectively swallow Pinhoe whole.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@50.74.../data=!3m1!1e3

Google Earth actually shows you the bit under development, you can actually see the boundaries between village and city being blurred.

Things like that happen in Germany just as well, the entire Ruhrgebiet is slowly growing together. A lot of that is probably due to urbanization and less so due to immigration. When you zoom out from your google maps view, you see fields everywhere. Pinhoe and Exeter probably started to grow together somewhere around the middle ages. What's funny is that the Brexit also causes Britain to compete against its neighbors, and a larger population is a competitive advantage. So we'll see about that.

I would actually agree in general that the planet has far too much population given the goals of consumption everyone has. But Britain being overcrowded sounds a bit off given that Israel, Japan and so on are even more densely populated and seem to make it work. To just claim that they have problems from overpopulation does not convince me really, you'd have to show a bit more than that. I mean surely they have problems, but I'm not sure they're caused by overpopulation in a significant way. Tokyo's crowded subway system can be attributed to urbanization, centralization and the height of buildings just the same. If they spread the population more evenly around the country, that problem could be gone.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Things like that happen in Germany just as well, the entire Ruhrgebiet is slowly growing together. A lot of that is probably due to urbanization and less so due to immigration. When you zoom out from your google maps view, you see fields everywhere. Pinhoe and Exeter probably started to grow together somewhere around the middle ages. What's funny is that the Brexit also causes Britain to compete against its neighbors, and a larger population is a competitive advantage. So we'll see about that.

I would actually agree in general that the planet has far too much population given the goals of consumption everyone has. But Britain being overcrowded sounds a bit off given that Israel, Japan and so on are even more densely populated and seem to make it work. To just claim that they have problems from overpopulation does not convince me really, you'd have to show a bit more than that. I mean surely they have problems, but I'm not sure they're caused by overpopulation in a significant way. Tokyo's crowded subway system can be attributed to urbanization, centralization and the height of buildings just the same. If they spread the population more evenly around the country, that problem could be gone.

Pinhoe was mostly fields until a few decades ago, the bit that currently connects it to Exeter is an Industrial estate built, irrc, in the early 90's, so during my lifetime. Those fields are for sheep and cows, so as Exeter expands it destroys its own local food supply. Who's buying these houses though? Some are locals, true, but that's because people commute from Exeter to London and Bristol - that's threee hours to London. Rather puts London's quality of life into perspective. Urbanisation is part of a function of over-crowding. As more and more people are born the jobs dry up in rural areas, so people move to the cities, which therefore expand, swallowing the surrounding rural areas and destroying the basis for the rural economy (land). This results in rural over-population which causes people to move to cities and... you get the picture.

In Britain we're reaching a tipping point similar to the one after WWII where we had our last population explosion. the difference is that this time the population explosion is caused by immigration, without immigration the population would be slowly falling and might stabilise, alleviating the need for so much new housing.

As a result many people are resentful of immigration they see as uncontrolled (because it's enshrined in EU treaty and not a policy they can vote a government out for). This feeling of lack of control is a big part of why many people voted Out and the key theme my father returns to (you may recall he's Swedish, so he can't vote himself). Lack of control over agricultural policy is another reason people voted Out and probably a bigger one where I grew up than immigration.

Now, frankly, I think Pannonion et al bear a significant amount of the responsibility for the rise in racist attacks. It was Remain who said that those who voted Leave were racists and Xenophobes, so when Leave won the racists and Xenophobes felt empowered. That's why I'm annoyed people KEEP going on about it. If you're troubled by the racist attacks you need to find non-racists (like me) who voted Leave for political reasons or reasons of principle and not out of Xenophobia - and you need to engage with them publicly.

I want the same thing for Europe everyone else here does - peace, prosperity and happiness for everyone - I just happen to believe the EU can't deliver those things.

[Husar]

Using country-wide densities rarely tells you anything useful, as though land and property and people were fungible.

Well, just claiming it is overcrowded doesn't tell me anything useful either because I have no idea what the statement is based on or why he thinks so.

In the end, perhaps only two things can be said for certain about population trends. Sooner or later, they make fools of those who offer dramatic forecasts. But people will keep making them. In 1960, in the US journal Science, a paper by the distinguished physicist and philosopher Heinz von Foerster and two colleagues declared, “Our great-great-grandchildren will not starve to death. They will be squeezed to death.” The paper was titled Doomsday: Friday, 13 November, AD 2026. See you in the northern ticket hall then?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...pulation-panic

[Montmorency]

There isn't one, that's the point.

Doesn't seem likely.

[Pannonian]

There isn't one, that's the point.

Like I said - excuses.

As to the Immigration argument - people need to get over this. Wanting less immigration does not make you evil in a country as overcrowded as this one.

There's a bright point I suppose. Immigration from the EU is down in some areas, and existing EU immigrants are wanting out.

Nurses from Europe are turning their backs on Britain, according to new figures showing the number registering to work here since the Brexit referendum has fallen by 90 per cent.

Just 101 nurses and midwives from other European nations joined the register to work here last month - a drop from 1,304 in July, the month immediately after the referendum, official figures show.

The statistics from the Nursing and Midwifery Council (NMC) also show a rise in the number of EU nurses who have decided to stop working in the UK.

Last month, 318 decided to leave the NMC’s register - almost twice the 177 who did so in June, the month of the referendum.

The number of overseas nurses asking for an application pack to register to work in Britain also fell dramatically, with just 453 enquiries in December - compared with 697 in July. An even sharper drop was seen last February, after rules were changed to allow regulators to carry out language tests.

Last January, almost 3,700 nurses and midwives from the Continent asked for an application pack - but after the clampdown, the figure fell to just 861 the following month, since when it has dropped.

The NHS is heavily reliant on overseas workers, and the number of nurses coming to Britain from elsewhere in Europe has tripled in the last four years.

...

Racist attacks on NHS staff have more than doubled in a year, with Brexit blamed for inflaming tensions in hospitals. Assaults on health service employees involving religious or racial factors rose from 225 in 2014-15 to 496 in 2015/16, with a continued rise in recent months, official statistics show.

Earlier this month, it emerged that almost every hospital in the UK has a shortage of nurses.

Staff said patients were being left unwashed, unmonitored and without crucial medications, amid a worsening crisis in the country’s hospitals.

Last week it emerged that more than 7,000 nurse posts could be axed from NHS hospitals across the country despite a mounting Accident & Emergency crisis.

Every area has been ordered to draw up measures to save £22 billion and reorganise health services in order to meet rising demand from an ageing population.

But the documents suggest that the proposals could result in the loss of more than 17,000 staff by 2020 – including 7,300 nurses and midwives.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2...e-brexit-vote/