Brexit Thread

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

So would you rather negotiate with EU or Spain?

The Spanish want Gibraltar - we won't give them Gibraltar because the locals want to be British. The Spanish Government, given their own current domestic situation, have more to lose by "giving up" Gibraltar than by torpedoing a future UK-EU trade agreement.

So, it doesn't matter what I want, only what the Spanish want, because the British Government will not sacrifice 30,000 citizens for a deal.

[Kagemusha]

The Spanish want Gibraltar - we won't give them Gibraltar because the locals want to be British. The Spanish Government, given their own current domestic situation, have more to lose by "giving up" Gibraltar than by torpedoing a future UK-EU trade agreement.

So, it doesn't matter what I want, only what the Spanish want, because the British Government will not sacrifice 30,000 citizens for a deal.

Not really answering my question, but thank you for opening your line of thought.

As long as Britain was in EU this issue was for example a non issue as it could be moderated within EU. Now that you are outside of EU, EU can only support its member nation, in which case Britain suffers. One way or another.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Not really answering my question, but thank you for opening your line of thought.

As long as Britain was in EU this issue was for example a non issue as it could be moderated within EU. Now that you are outside of EU, EU can only support its member nation, in which case Britain suffers. One way or another.

Well, I confess I didn't quite understand it.

In any case, there will be no negotiation, we negotiated and held a Referendum on "joint sovereignty", 99% voted in favour of the status quo.

It has not been a "non issue" since then, though. Last summer the Spanish started carrying our prohibitively long checks at the border, forcing people to wait for hours in their overheating cars and Spanish Navy ships frequently violate Gibraltarn waters.

It's like with the Argentinians and the Falklands, except with ten times the British Citizens involved.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

....It's like with the Argentinians and the Falklands, except with ten times the British Citizens involved.

But with a much smaller RN.

[Kagemusha]

Well, I confess I didn't quite understand it.

In any case, there will be no negotiation, we negotiated and held a Referendum on "joint sovereignty", 99% voted in favour of the status quo.

It has not been a "non issue" since then, though. Last summer the Spanish started carrying our prohibitively long checks at the border, forcing people to wait for hours in their overheating cars and Spanish Navy ships frequently violate Gibraltarn waters.

This was before or after 23.06.2017? Dont you understand. You had a platform in EU where this kind of issues were easy to settle, but you decided to walk out from it, because of various reasons. You are now reaping what you sow and this is just a one issue. I surely hope your reasoning for Brexit will offer you more then what you are about to loose.

It's like with the Argentinians and the Falklands, except with ten times the British Citizens involved.

So you want to fight the Spanish over it?

[Fragony]

Giving up Gibraltar is a small price to pay, nothing is going to really change except cutting of a human traffic route, 'refugees' are Spain's problem if it's Spanish territory, pure win if you look at it pragmatically

[Pannonian]

Giving up Gibraltar is a small price to pay, nothing is going to really change except cutting of a human traffic route, 'refugees' are Spain's problem if it's Spanish territory, pure win if you look at it pragmatically

You sound like the neolibs more and more. "(Whatever) is a small price to pay for upholding these theories, as I'm not the one who has to pay it."

[Fragony]

You sound like the neolibs more and more. "(Whatever) is a small price to pay for upholding these theories, as I'm not the one who has to pay it."

It's all a game and giving up Gilbraltar would be a queen-sacrifice

It's perfect, you gave up a disputed territory, you would have done enough to feed the wolves, stfu very please what more do you want???? Forces in the EU want to punish you brits you know that, they don't want other net-payers to stop paying their comfortable bliss

I prefer neo-machi btw

[Gilrandir]

Giving up Gibraltar is a small price to pay, nothing is going to really change except cutting of a human traffic route, 'refugees' are Spain's problem if it's Spanish territory, pure win if you look at it pragmatically

You sound like the neolibs more and more. "(Whatever) is a small price to pay for upholding these theories, as I'm not the one who has to pay it."

Next thing Fragony is gonna say is "Scotland/Northern Ireland is a small price for being free from Brussels".

[Brenus]

It's like with the Argentinians and the Falklands, except with ten times the British Citizens involved.

At least the Spanish planes won't be at the limit of their range, and their Aircraft Carrier unsinkable...

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

But with a much smaller RN.

And a potential to start WWIII.

So let's hope the Spanish aren't that stupid.

This was before or after 23.06.2017? Dont you understand. You had a platform in EU where this kind of issues were easy to settle, but you decided to walk out from it, because of various reasons. You are now reaping what you sow and this is just a one issue. I surely hope your reasoning for Brexit will offer you more then what you are about to loose.

What is there to settle? We negotiated, we held a referendum, the people voted to be British but still the Spanish want the rock, and they have been goading us every summer since. The right thing for the EU to do would be to tell the Spanish that it has been British for over three centuries and to drop it. In fact, they have not, instead their negotiating position "acknowledges" the Spanish claim, as though it was somehow legitimate.

So, from my perspective the EU has been no help in settling this over the last decade - the other EU countries essentially support the Spanish position and continue to do so. If anything we gain a benefit from leaving the EU as we are no longer required to tow a line which gives lip service to a Spanish claim.

So you want to fight the Spanish over it?

No, I fear they will be stupid enough to fight us over it. If this becomes a bigger issue than it already is it may well have a military aspect as we'll have to rush HMS Queen Elizabeth to service before we leave the EU and accelerate uptake of the F35B in order to have a credible carrier force to deter such stupidity.

At the very least I imagine the RN is asking if it needs to keep a Destroyer Squadron in the Med ping-ponging between Cyprus and the Rock.

Giving up Gibraltar is a small price to pay, nothing is going to really change except cutting of a human traffic route, 'refugees' are Spain's problem if it's Spanish territory, pure win if you look at it pragmatically

The abandonment of 30,000 British citizens and the gateway to the Med is in no way acceptable, from a humanitarian, economic, or military perspective. If the Spanish are bellicose enough to demand the Rock, are they bellicose enough to close the Straight to British shipping?

At least the Spanish planes won't be at the limit of their range, and their Aircraft Carrier unsinkable...

Sorry, care to explain? I honestly don't understand the reference, or rather it could mean one of three things at least.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Lord Howard implies we would go to war over Gibraltar:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017...-says-michael/

"35 years ago this week another woman Prime Minister sent a task force half way across the World to defend the freedom of another small group of British people against another Spanish-speaking country. I am absolutely certain our current Prime Minister will show the same resolve in standing by the people of Gibraltar."

Another quote from said article:

Fabian Picardo told the BBC this morning that sharing sovereignty with Spain would be "absolutely awful" and comparable to "living in somebody else’s land."

Fabian Picardo is Gibraltar's Chief Minister.

[Husar]

So Gibraltar is basically proof of what happens when you don't exterminate an immigrant enclave fast enough?

Apparently it was taken in an opportune moment when there was internal turmoil, much like a peninsula that was formerly part of Ukraine (and also partially an immigrant enclave)...

[Kagemusha]

Lord Howard implies we would go to war over Gibraltar:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017...-says-michael/



Another quote from said article:



Fabian Picardo is Gibraltar's Chief Minister.

So in less then half a year there is talk about war in Western Europe. Im sure Putin is laughing himself senseless and Trump is ready to offer Britain the deal of their lives as vassal of US. This is exactly why EU should remain and the only redeeming factor is that anyone in Europe is idiot enough to actually start a war over few rocks at Gibraltar. Sometimes the amount of human stupidity is just too much to handle.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Lord Howard implies we would go to war over Gibraltar....

I don't see Spain militarily annexing Gib.

Were they to try, the UK's military capability to stop or counterattack is much more limited than it was in 1982.

Could it be done?

Would the UK need to resort to a nuclear threat?

If the threat failed, could the UK actually launch nukes (obviously they have the technology, that's not what I see as an obstacle)?

[Brenus]

Sorry, care to explain? I honestly don't understand the reference, or rather it could mean one of three things at least.

A joke referring to the distance between Argentina and the Falklands. The Argentine Air Forces were at the limit of fuel for their planes (Mirages and Daggers) and had limited Aerospace Exocet Missiles. So they could not be as efficient as possible, as their possibility of tactics were limited by the time they could be on the war theater.
And the aircraft carrier being Spain (not the Veinti Cinco de Mayo that was never engaged https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARA_Ve..._de_Mayo_(V-2) ) it is by definition unsinkable...