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Thread: What would non-racist criticism of South Africa look like?

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    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default What would non-racist criticism of South Africa look like?

    Is this the way to tackle injustices?
    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-36381572
    Last edited by Gilrandir; 05-29-2016 at 06:36.
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    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: What would non-racist criticism of South Africa look like?

    Good luck with that, it takes a lot of expertise to grow crops, and let's face it, white farmers have it.

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    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: What would non-racist criticism of South Africa look like?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    Good luck with that, it takes a lot of expertise to grow crops, and let's face it, white farmers have it.
    No surprise given that they forcefully prevented the others from acquiring it for decades.


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    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: What would non-racist criticism of South Africa look like?

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    No surprise given that they forcefully prevented the others from acquiring it for decades.
    We will talk of retaliation again?
    Quote Originally Posted by Suraknar View Post
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    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: What would non-racist criticism of South Africa look like?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrandir View Post
    We will talk of retaliation again?
    No, just making sure that one side is not eternally favoured based on a crime.
    If someone acquires something during a criminal act, do they always get to keep it?
    Or are we arguing now that the Apartheid and everything done under it was technically legal and therefore everything is perfectly fine now?

    Why did Germany not get to keep what it conquered in WW1?
    Last edited by Husar; 05-29-2016 at 16:33.


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    Hǫr­ar Member Viking's Avatar
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    Default Re: What would non-racist criticism of South Africa look like?

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    Why did Germany not get to keep what it conquered in WW1?
    Because it lost the war.

    For all we know, the people(s) that inhabited South Africa when Europeans came could have genocided/expelled previous populations living there (who in turn could have genocided/expelled yet earlier populations), meaning that the land wasn't "theirs" in the first place. That's not even considering the ethics of claiming uninhabited land for yourself.

    All to say that it is not necessarily as black and white as you present it, and that lots of evidence of 'crimes' may be missing because they happened during times where little or no history was recorded.
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    Member Member Greyblades's Avatar
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    Default Re: What would non-racist criticism of South Africa look like?

    We should have returned the boers to holland, they had developed too much bad blood with the native africans and were too proud to shed the identity and become British. When they were granted independance the fear of retaliation fueled the continued oppression of the black population, fears that were legitimized in their eyes with the fall of Rhodesia.

    That blood defines the dynamic between whites and blacks in south africa, through its history a large scale retaliation against the whites have only been averted through the brutality of apartheid and later the influence of (and respect for the ideas of) Mandela, whose ability to forgive was, I believe, borderline messianic.

    Now Mandela is dead we can only hope that the cultural memory of arpartheid fades faster than the influence of Mandela lest they risk ending up with Mugabe 2.0. Considering that repatriation is what Mugabe did and largely responsible for the famines zimbabwe faced, Mandela is likely spinning in his fresh grave.
    Last edited by Greyblades; 05-29-2016 at 18:17.
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    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: What would non-racist criticism of South Africa look like?

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    No surprise given that they forcefully prevented the others from acquiring it for decades.
    You can say that without being unfair, but look at Zimbawe, used to be rich
    @Greyblades, it doesn't really is an an incentive to become brittish if you are put into a concentration-camp. I think most ex-Dutch would love to come back to the Netherlands really. Not sure where this is going. The Boers have a pretty good reason to dislike the Brittish, and vica versa. Welcome back anyway in the Netherlands as far as I care.
    Last edited by Fragony; 05-30-2016 at 07:57.

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    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: What would non-racist criticism of South Africa look like?

    Quote Originally Posted by Viking View Post
    Because it lost the war.

    For all we know, the people(s) that inhabited South Africa when Europeans came could have genocided/expelled previous populations living there (who in turn could have genocided/expelled yet earlier populations), meaning that the land wasn't "theirs" in the first place. That's not even considering the ethics of claiming uninhabited land for yourself.

    All to say that it is not necessarily as black and white as you present it, and that lots of evidence of 'crimes' may be missing because they happened during times where little or no history was recorded.
    So what? Whites lost the Apartheid...


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    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: What would non-racist criticism of South Africa look like?

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    So what? Whites lost the Apartheid...
    And who's losing everything, I know it's not a very popular thing to say, but the apartheid wasn't all that bad. Absolutily racist but also full of opertunities that are now lost. The truth commision was humanity at it's best, but it's not enough for some. I also think the Boers should return to their homeland as South-Africa isn't safe anymore.

    I wonder what people think about Mandela after this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5TD2HpXcH0
    Last edited by Fragony; 05-30-2016 at 09:40.

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    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: What would non-racist criticism of South Africa look like?

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    If someone acquires something during a criminal act, do they always get to keep it?
    Or are we arguing now that the Apartheid and everything done under it was technically legal and therefore everything is perfectly fine now?
    After a great span of time has elapsed and several generations of the inhabitants have died out their heirs consider the land their own, no matter how legal/illegal had been its acquisition. For example, Crimea - it was (first) annexed by Russia in 1783, but modern Russia claims it to have ALWAYS been HISTORICAL Russian land. The longer something is kept, the more the owners consider it their own.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    I think most ex-Dutch would love to come back to the Netherlands really.

    I also think the Boers should return to their homeland as South-Africa isn't safe anymore.
    Do THEY see it that way? Do you think they still associate themselves with the Netherlands? It is something like saying that all Irish Americans should return to Ireland and all blacks - to Africa.

    People who live somewhere now seldom associate themselves with the country of their ancestors to such a degree as to move back and shout: "Now I'm home at last!" I think that for most Boers whose greatgreatgreat....grandfathers came to South Africa 400 years ago the Netherlands is just another name on the map, nothing more.
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    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: What would non-racist criticism of South Africa look like?

    No I don't think they see it that way, the Boers only share our language, although a bit different.

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    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: What would non-racist criticism of South Africa look like?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    No I don't think they see it that way, the Boers only share our language, although a bit different.
    So they might as well head for any other country they fancy if they feel they can't stay home any longer.
    Quote Originally Posted by Suraknar View Post
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    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: What would non-racist criticism of South Africa look like?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrandir View Post
    So they might as well head for any other country they fancy if they feel they can't stay home any longer.
    Who says they have a home, look up 'white poors' in google. They are better off here and should just come back where they belong. We throw money around everywhere on useless things.

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    Hǫr­ar Member Viking's Avatar
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    Default Re: What would non-racist criticism of South Africa look like?

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    So what? Whites lost the Apartheid...
    You were the one invoking justice, not me.
    Last edited by Viking; 05-30-2016 at 10:45.
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    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: What would non-racist criticism of South Africa look like?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    Who says they have a home, look up 'white poors' in google.
    If they were born there and their parents, and their parents' parents and so on, South Africa IS their home. Same as the USA is the home of Afro-Americans.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    They are better off here and should just come back where they belong.
    You have just agreed they don't associate themselves with the Netherlands (nor any other country), so how can they belong anywhere else?
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    Member Member Greyblades's Avatar
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    Default Re: What would non-racist criticism of South Africa look like?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    You can say that without being unfair, but look at Zimbawe, used to be rich
    @Greyblades, it doesn't really is an an incentive to become brittish if you are put into a concentration-camp. I think most ex-Dutch would love to come back to the Netherlands really. Not sure where this is going. The Boers have a pretty good reason to dislike the Brittish, and vica versa. Welcome back anyway in the Netherlands as far as I care.
    Yes we should have let them stay to starve with thier burning farms instead of attempting to keep them alive by putting them at the mercies of 19th century logistics and sanitation.

    The boers started a war they could not win to protect their right to deny their utilanders the vote and right to treat their black neighbours bad enough to make 19th century europe cringe. They died in those camps because their leaders decided to wage a guerilla campaign beyond the point of sanity.

    The standard response to guerilla tactincs was scorched earth, it was British sensibilities that put the civillians into camps to prevent them all starving and when the civillians started to succumb to camp diseases the boers kept fighting the hopeless war regardless. When the British stopped admitting new boers into the camps due to public outcry back home at their condition the guerillas found they now had to provide for their own people. They promptly surrendered.

    The boers were not the jews and the british were not the nazis, no matter how much the current post colonial thought might wish you to think so.
    Last edited by Greyblades; 05-30-2016 at 13:01.
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    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: What would non-racist criticism of South Africa look like?

    I often screw up when I just think something. But I am pretty sure especially the urban poor will find a better place here. It are the white poor that are being discriminated now, no welfare, no medical-care. I understand why that came to be, the Boers have been cruel and are notorious for being mercenarries who will do anything. Not just the Dutch Afrikaner, the English ones as well. History between the Boers and the English is also rather complicated, a very vicious war was fought between the Dutch and the English in South-Africa.
    Last edited by Fragony; 05-30-2016 at 13:26.

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    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: What would non-racist criticism of South Africa look like?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    I also think the Boers should return to their homeland as South-Africa isn't safe anymore.
    A country full of poor, uneducated people who are not under constant police surveillance is not safe?
    Shocking...

    Quote Originally Posted by Viking View Post
    You were the one invoking justice, not me.
    Yeah, shocking.
    Last edited by Husar; 05-30-2016 at 17:57.


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    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: What would non-racist criticism of South Africa look like?

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    A country full of poor, uneducated people who are not under constant police surveillance is not safe?
    Shocking..
    The whole continent is a nightmare what's it to me. I wish them nothing but the best but let's be realistic. Africa should be the richest continent of the world and it's not. If I you think I am hinting at racism yes, you aren't wrong if you do. I make no secret out of thinking whites are just smarter.
    Last edited by Fragony; 05-30-2016 at 18:15.

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    Default Re: What would non-racist criticism of South Africa look like?

    The Org is the only place where you can normally get away with making Ann Coulter look like MLK compared to your views.

    So the whites are the master race, Mandela was nothing but a terrorist, and the dumb darkies interrupted the masterful efforts at developing in Africa by the masters. It's not the racial struggle per se, it's that one of them was dumber.

    Keep rolling that tape wer shaffen das mutti theresa the plump farmhorse.

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    Member Member Greyblades's Avatar
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    Default Re: What would non-racist criticism of South Africa look like?

    Quote Originally Posted by Showtime View Post
    The Org is the only place where you can normally get away with making Ann Coulter look like MLK compared to your views.
    Hence why it's still worth a damn.
    Last edited by Greyblades; 05-30-2016 at 22:30.
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    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: What would non-racist criticism of South Africa look like?

    Quote Originally Posted by Showtime View Post
    The Org is the only place where you can normally get away with making Ann Coulter look like MLK compared to your views.

    So the whites are the master race, Mandela was nothing but a terrorist, and the dumb darkies interrupted the masterful efforts at developing in Africa by the masters. It's not the racial struggle per se, it's that one of them was dumber.

    Keep rolling that tape wer shaffen das mutti theresa the plump farmhorse.
    That's a lot, you make too much out of it.

    Be glad that controversial views are tolerated here as long as you remain civil.

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    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: What would non-racist criticism of South Africa look like?

    Quote Originally Posted by Greyblades View Post
    Yes we should have let them stay to starve with thier burning farms instead of attempting to keep them alive by putting them at the mercies of 19th century logistics and sanitation.

    The boers started a war they could not win to protect their right to deny their utilanders the vote and right to treat their black neighbours bad enough to make 19th century europe cringe. They died in those camps because their leaders decided to wage a guerilla campaign beyond the point of sanity.

    The standard response to guerilla tactincs was scorched earth, it was British sensibilities that put the civillians into camps to prevent them all starving and when the civillians started to succumb to camp diseases the boers kept fighting the hopeless war regardless. When the British stopped admitting new boers into the camps due to public outcry back home at their condition the guerillas found they now had to provide for their own people. They promptly surrendered.

    The boers were not the jews and the british were not the nazis, no matter how much the current post colonial thought might wish you to think so.
    I see. The British waged a righteous war solely to stop the Boers' depredations and mistreating the natives. And when the Boers were defeated all these practices were stopped and all wrongs done to natives put to right. Apartheid didn't flourish since then and Mandela was fighting windmills all his life.
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    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: What would non-racist criticism of South Africa look like?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrandir View Post
    I see. The British waged a righteous war solely to stop the Boers' depredations and mistreating the natives. And when the Boers were defeated all these practices were stopped and all wrongs done to natives put to right. Apartheid didn't flourish since then and Mandela was fighting windmills all his life.
    Greyblades never said the British fought a righteous war. If you're going to talk about windmills, perhaps you should show some self-awareness by not building some for yourself to tilt at.

    BTW, perhaps you should look at a list of South Africa's PMs from 1910 through to the abolition of the position in 1984.

    1 Louis Botha
    2 Jan Christiaan Smuts
    3 James Barry Munnik Hertzog
    (2) Jan Christiaan Smuts
    4 Daniel Franšois Malan
    5 Johannes Gerhardus Strijdom
    6 Hendrik Frensch Verwoerd
    7 Balthazar Johannes Vorster
    8 Pieter Willem Botha

    Proper old-fashioned Anglo-Saxon names, every one of them. Taking orders from Westminster as befits an obedient puppet of the government in London.

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    Member Member Greyblades's Avatar
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    Default Re: What would non-racist criticism of South Africa look like?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrandir View Post
    I see. The British waged a righteous war solely to stop the Boers' depredations and mistreating the natives. And when the Boers were defeated all these practices were stopped and all wrongs done to natives put to right. Apartheid didn't flourish since then and Mandela was fighting windmills all his life.
    Righteousness is in the eye beholder. Considering they were the aggressors (the british and boers traded diplomatic ultimatums but the British were caught with thier pants down when the boers actually attacked) and were the bigger bastards in terms of political attitude I think the Boer war could have been a righteous war.

    It wasnt righteous in my eyes though because the British botched it. First by allowing the previously mentioned screw ups at the camps and then by not doing anything in the aftermath to make sure the Boers would not do this again, either by reducation ala germany or deportation to holland, instead we gave them a country less than ten years later with no lesson learned.
    Last edited by Greyblades; 05-31-2016 at 14:51.
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    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: What would non-racist criticism of South Africa look like?

    Quote Originally Posted by Greyblades View Post
    Righteousness is in the eye beholder. Considering they were the aggressors (the british and boers traded diplomatic ultimatums but the British were caught with thier pants down when the boers actually attacked) and were the bigger bastards in terms of political attitude I think the Boer war could have been a righteous war.

    It wasnt righteous in my eyes though because the British botched it. First by allowing the previously mentioned screw ups at the camps and then by not doing anything in the aftermath to make sure the Boers would not do this again, either by reducation ala germany or deportation to holland, instead we gave them a country less than ten years later with no lesson learned.
    The PMs' names seem to get Dutchier and Dutchier the further they progressed along the Apartheid path. The first few have the kudos of fighting against the British in the Boer War though.

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    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: What would non-racist criticism of South Africa look like?

    Quote Originally Posted by Showtime View Post
    The Org is the only place where you can normally get away with making Ann Coulter look like MLK compared to your views.
    In my experience with the internet, the backroom is tame. I see worse regularly 'shared' on facebook.
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    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: What would non-racist criticism of South Africa look like?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    Proper old-fashioned Anglo-Saxon names, every one of them. Taking orders from Westminster as befits an obedient puppet of the government in London.
    That's racist. Why can't Englishmen cross-name or have a name-change when they felt dutch all their lives? Would you deny them entry in an English restroom?


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    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: What would non-racist criticism of South Africa look like?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    Greyblades never said the British fought a righteous war.
    It sounded like "Those boers were nasty to the local natives and then the British came to put an end to it." The actual quote (the bold is mine):

    The boers started a war they could not win to protect their right to deny their utilanders the vote and right to treat their black neighbours bad enough to make 19th century europe cringe.


    If the boers started a war to PROTECT those rigths, one could surmise their opponents fought to DENY them those rights (including the right to mistreat the locals). In effect, nothing of the kind happened - Britain's colonial expansion had nothing to do with an ostensible purpose (as it was stated by Greyblades) of granting any rights to locals. If Greybaldes' train of reasoning was different, the wording should have matched it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    BTW, perhaps you should look at a list of South Africa's PMs from 1910 through to the abolition of the position in 1984.

    1 Louis Botha
    2 Jan Christiaan Smuts
    3 James Barry Munnik Hertzog
    (2) Jan Christiaan Smuts
    4 Daniel Franšois Malan
    5 Johannes Gerhardus Strijdom
    6 Hendrik Frensch Verwoerd
    7 Balthazar Johannes Vorster
    8 Pieter Willem Botha

    Proper old-fashioned Anglo-Saxon names, every one of them. Taking orders from Westminster as befits an obedient puppet of the government in London.

    The PMs' names seem to get Dutchier and Dutchier the further they progressed along the Apartheid path. The first few have the kudos of fighting against the British in the Boer War though.
    AFAIK, South Africa was officially a part of the British empire between 1910 and 1931. If the British were so well-meaning, why apartheid and other oppression practices weren't abolished? How were the natives rights upheld by the Natives' Land Act of 1913? Or are those evil Dutch who were behind all this? And after RSA became independent, did the white South Africans of British origin disapprove let alone fight against all wrongs done by the Dutch?

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    That's racist. Why can't Englishmen cross-name or have a name-change when they felt dutch all their lives? Would you deny them entry in an English restroom?
    After Brexit they would. After Brexit anything that was bad will vanish into the thin air and virtue and happiness will shine with unsullied brilliance.
    Last edited by Gilrandir; 06-01-2016 at 13:41.
    Quote Originally Posted by Suraknar View Post
    The article exists for a reason yes, I did not write it...

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