Ancient TW - Original HTW Troops > Editing , Improving & Modifying

[dimitrios the samian]

For those not in the know , the troops used in Ancient TW are the originals created by the Hellenic TW team & those by Duke John , I believe ? . ( if they are some peopleI have missed please let me know ) The same team that brought us HTW began another mod & when it was about 50% ? of the way thru their Bronze Age Mod ceased , that is until Macsen stepped in & revived it & released it , the rest is MTW Modding History & it continues .

Macsen with the troop bif plates available has gone on to create a plethora of troops by mixing & matching weapons & shields .
In the beginning modding was all new to me , as were Cdrives , folders , tga's , bmp's , photoshop etc etc
I did manage to create a Review Panel & I caught the bug
With such a variety of soldier types already fielded in Macs mods , I have started my journey into the animated side of things only recently & I'm enjoying it immensely so far .
I am familiar with RTW & have seen many hours of battles on later releases , but the reviews of the players is the same frustration followed by more frustration , superb I candy yes , but MTW still has the best tactical battlefield AI of all !!
Anyway , I will repost a few pics from last week & my modding journal continues here .



This figure (bif) is the first one im going to finish & send to Macsen to use .
It is a very popular one , Originally used by HTW for Akondistes , Toxotes , Cretan Archers , Light Archers , Skirites , Peltasts & Thrasian Peltasts .
Well when I'm done they will be much improved . All will have belts + sandals or leather footwear & a mixture of swords & quivers .
I will look at making a Thracian bif & I have plans for a different Cretan Archer ( more on these two later )
So back my first project , I did have a slight problem creating the new bif but it has been solved ( covered in the main thread)
I will continue the work necessary so these poor little guys look like they are wearing & fighting in more than a plain tunic
In the interim only today , I doodled on PS for a while & created two more , just one pic one 1 plate , but its a start , here is a peek



Anyway , I'm back working on the Akondistes & Peltasts as of spare time tomorrow.
More soon on those as it become available ......
cheers

[macsen rufus]

Hi Dimitrios - looking like you're really getting your teeth into the animations!

I'm not sure which release of Ancient you have, but it's probably been superceded where Thracians are concerned. I now have this BIF for them (plus tribal archers and agrianes and hyrcanians, iirc). I think it was one Duke John let me have years ago:

[dimitrios the samian]

Yes nice bif that one !
I have it & eventually I will see these "tribal archers and agrianes and hyrcanians . as I think they are made of the same bif but different shields & weapons ..... ( I'm beginning to understand most of the mechanics behind it now)
Anyway Mac , I have Hellenic TW & your first ATW2 ...( the one with its own map)
Your 2.53 & Roman TW3 available for download here have the wrong textures/men .( at least for my 3 attempts at dl them)
When you get a chance replace your latest 2.53 here at the Org & i'll be up to speed ! ........... I hope

[macsen rufus]

I won't be re-releasing 2.53, as it was the 'catch all' package. All of its scenarios will be parcelled out between ATW1 (Bronze Age), ATW2 (Eastern) and ATW3 (Roman), and hopefully many errors and omissions will be corrected in each package as it comes out (well, we can all live in hope )

And not to put any ideas into your head, but when I turn towards the Diadochi scenario in due course (weeks if not months away yet, alas...) I am going to need some African hoplites for the Ptolemies I think just a change in skin colour based on the Macedonian hoplite bif should do the trick.

EDIT TO ADD: thanks so much for forwarding that screenie of Stazi's brilliant discovery, it's quite amazing. See here what I'm doing with it.

[dimitrios the samian]

I won't be re-releasing 2.53, as it was the 'catch all' package. All of its scenarios will be parcelled out between ATW1 (Bronze Age), ATW2 (Eastern) and ATW3 (Roman)

And not to put any ideas into your head, but when I turn towards the Diadochi scenario in due course (weeks if not months away yet, alas...) I am going to need some African hoplites for the Ptolemies I think just a change in skin colour based on the Macedonian hoplite bif should do the trick ......

Howdy Mac ... sounds great , coz I was only campaigning on the V2 Edition , so im looking forward too seeing the "Age of Charoits" in the right setting & all improved ofcourse
Ok , About that bif , I think I can do it no problems , what im going to do is join a photoshop forum & get some tips as I know its a lot easier than drawing 260+ Helmets , I reckon one full plate of helmets & then its just matching them up & giving them a quick clean ....



I have this bif , it is from BKB's work , its the akondistes from HTW ...
Q ? ..Would the animation suit a Hoplite that you need ?

[macsen rufus]

That's a nice looking BIF, but from what I've been reading, Ptolemy's African hoplites were equipped in the regular Hellenistic style as with his native Egyptian hoplites. That's why I was thnking the Macedonian hoplites with a good tan would be the easiest route to go...

I've been looking at the Babylonians today, so will start a thread for them whilst it's still fresh in my memory.

[dimitrios the samian]

Yes , i liked it too , will come in very useful .
I will go with the second route , its definitely easier
Just tanning up the Macedonians to get to our African Hoplites .
& I will also change something simple on their uniform to make them unique
If you can Mac , post a pic of the Bif plate so we don't get our wires mixed .
............................................................
In the meantime , I can send you this bif if u like to begin using it ............ even like this it is useful .
When the time arrives at a later date I can tidy him up .
Let me know , going over to the Babylonian thread now .
cheers

[macsen rufus]

Macedonian Hoplites:




On the plus side, there's not a lot of skin showing, so shouldn't take tooooo long looking at it, there's not a lot of scope for other tweaks, so the skin tone alone will have to be enough.

And, yes it would be nice to have that other BIF - I'm sure it could be useful assuming I can find enough spare folders, and also assuming BKB is okay with it being used in another mod (fully credited, of course).

And re:

I won't be re-releasing 2.53...

I'd suggest you check your email and note my new address, as well. My hotmail one is a pain to use now.

[dimitrios the samian]

Howdy Mac .... yes its easy darkening up these boys !
I think a shade or two lighter than the Negro in original VI .
I'll send that other Bif to you at the gmail address .
Transfer working

[dimitrios the samian]

UPDATE :
After almost 2 weeks , I can say I have made progress .
My first mission is to finish the generic Hellenic bif , heavily used & I am at almost 20% on that .
I will be buying a cordless mouse as i'm currently working on the laptop so that should speed it up considerably .
I have been regularly unpacking the bif & remaking & all good so far (color palette wise)
...................
re: PTOLEMAIC AFRICAN HOPLITE



I spent a few hours & experimented a bit & im happy with the result .
It is tricky around the greaves & helmet , but easier around thighs & arms .
I will tidy up the fac colours , purple & green on these as the purples on tunic are messy ( straight lines overlaid on curves )
& adding a belt makes it look more robust & better depicted on screen .
I'll officially start on these once I send Macsen the first finished bif , as its used extensively in Rise of Persia also .

[macsen rufus]

Aha! They do look like African hoplites, excellent

[dimitrios the samian]

thanks Mac , good to know you like em !
I will be away for 3 days , but the good news is i'll have my mouse on my return & mid week next week I will send you the first bif to give him a trial run .
Take some time out for some campaigning ok
cheers

ps ..... thumbs up also on the site you used for uploading , downloaded the installer successfully

[dimitrios the samian]

I'm back !!
Looking forward to using the mouse to finish of the first bif .
Then onto the African Hoplites .
I'm feeling the need for a Thracian specific bif after that

[macsen rufus]

Welcome back!

I've been busy in your absence - delving more into the possibilities opened up by 'province resources' especially. I have now added two more new province-unique buildings to add a bit of historical context and some game features.

However, I have discovered that there is a hard limit on the number of buildings the build_prod can contain, and with the 50 province resources tied up, that means I've now filled my quota. SO.... if I'm going to implement all the ideas I have I'm either going to have to reduce the number of provinces that can have a dedicated PR building, or maybe define some as more generic items so their functionality can be used in a range of provinces. (eg maybe a generic 'Greek colony' or 'Khorasan highway' resource instead of the four or five separate province resources used to define them so far). Ultimately that means I have to make some hard decisions about which provinces HAVE to be completely unique, and which can just be part of a group.

I've also done a fair bit of tidying up, especially around era transitions, done some new dismount options, added another new unit, got rid of some anachronisms in the unit_desc texts, made more offices etc etc - and of course added as much to the "to-do" list as I have cleared off it

[dimitrios the samian]

Howdy Mac ...
Its good you been busy & making progress !
I'm not familiar with Stazi's discovery & its uses , but stick to yr motto "gameplay always comes first"
Grouping them is a good option & the bottom line is "not all provinces need them" even if we play on larger maps or smaller provinces .
Make those hard decisions mac & remember , altering a few things & creating alternate strartpos files for variety & more challenges !
........
I'll be back finishing of the first unit , you will receive a 90% finished one to try out
I'm a bit in the dark on how it manages to go thru its Javelin phase ?
I have read all that's written about it by DJ & Wellington but still unsure ........ but deep down I know I can improve it immensely , as at present it seems to be just frozen , then cranks 3 animation phases before resting still for another 9 , I figure we can have a much much better Javelin animation .
I'll check out some custom battles on HTW with it & we can both have a look at later next week , to try & understand it better .
Going over to yr Athenian faction thread now .

[macsen rufus]

As far as I can tell, the animation cycle is hard-coded for any missile unit that isn't an archer (ie doesn't have its weapon drawn on the unit bif directly). If you look in the textures folder, along with the unit_W and unit_S files, there is also one called 'aim.txt', which contains a single number. This seems to be the FRAME number at which the action is frozen - eg when the javelin is held back before throwing. The figure used is generally the 'fight' action-cycle, as that basically involves casting the arm back and forth - it's just as easy to load a javelin into it as any other (melee) weapon. Note that in the actionspage data the 'shoot' co-ordinates for the weapon defined as javelin will show up in the first few (six or eight?) frames of the cycle and then cease to be rendered once past the point where it is 'thrown' and the missile graphic takes over. Given that you can't change the way the animation is handled, all you could change is the position of the arm perhaps, by adding in another set of four figures to use for the 'throw' action, which will require extra matching weapon and possibly shield-placement co-ordinates. And to be honest, that's heck of a lot of work for a change that doesn't really address the problem, and that no-one will notice anyway.

[dimitrios the samian]

Thanks for the enlightenment Macsen ..
I understand a little more now about this facet of animation ......... but the first thought that crossed my mind was the Slingers : their shoot cycle involves a lot more than the Javs . hmmm , more questions but for now I will leave it be as is , because its sufficient
........................................

Macsen said >> Don't forget, there is very little scope left for new textures BIFs as all the space is currently used up - every new variant means culling something else, so there's not much mileage in minor tweaks ...........................

Yes I understand this now , my plan is this minor tweaks to existing major important bif plates only eg, belts,quivers,footwear etc etc "eye candy/realism"

Macsen said >> There's differentiation in weapons, shields and formations, and for the sake of textures space, I think that's all we can afford, compared to others that give us a better return (like Indian infantry and African hoplites )

.... I totally agree "better return" , when you get your textures/men cull list done let me know & we continue on

[macsen rufus]

Yes, slingers.... I've been thinking about them recently. What's awkward is the 'standing shoot' thing, because a sling that pauses halfway will look odd. I'm going to have to spend a day looking at animations very closely to see what I can do

[dimitrios the samian]

Yes, slingers.... I've been thinking about them recently. What's awkward is the 'standing shoot' thing, because a sling that pauses halfway will look odd. I'm going to have to spend a day looking at animations very closely to see what I can do

Howdy Mac ! , yes please do , take a closer look & do some experimenting , we really should have had the Javelin troops much better depicted than what we got given in the original & in HTW .
Imagine the classic Olympian style Javelin athlete ! wow ! , but I'm thinking that wouldn't work b'cause its travelling forward as its going thru its motions ,
but ...... a rocking arm & shoulder back & forth would make a big difference !
& I would take great pride in drawing that up if your close look is promising .

I will send you a preliminary slinger bif animation that I have drawn up (all 12 plates) & take a look at it on BifReader .
If you are successful in your investigations , then it would be worth my time drawing up the remaining 3x12 plates . ( so it does not take up a complete folder )
Be nice to retire that googly bowling animation we have now . ( though its passable for a slinger) for now .

[dimitrios the samian]

UPDATE :
My first bif is 60% done .
I will send it by email to you Mac so you can check that it is going ok on the battlefield .
I have redone the bows also ( a bit thicker & longer), so just check that also so their is no clipping present .
That bif plate will be ready next week & then onto the African Hoplites .

[macsen rufus]

Thanks, Dimitrios - I shall look forward to meeting the new guys

[dimitrios the samian]

New guys sent ..check yr email
Been doodling around , skinned up a generic Biblical Unit .
Tell me what you think guys .

[Leith]

Hi Dimitrios! I like your work. The slinger looks good enough. I am going to post a screenshot of Macedonian Pikes. Hope you like it.




Here is another for Royal Pikemen:

[dimitrios the samian]

Wow !!!!
Leith , they are very very nice !
I'm sure Macsen will want to use them in the mod .

We can look forward to some great Mods with an extra bloke like yourself & Western offering help .
You know , I already have many questions & ideas I'd like to share with you & us all here .
Anyway , Im in the process of finishing some skinning ,, African Hoplite/Pikemen for the next instalment "Diadochi".

I can see different legs on the royal Pikeman , did you build these up from scratch or just mod the Hellenic ones ?
cheers

[Leith]

Hi there Dimitrios! Glad you like them. It might be a good idea to change your African pikemen a bit more. Changing the skin colour will make them different but not attractive enough. You might want to fiddle with the helm or change the armour colour into silver or dark bronze for example. I think the Karkades and Immortals bifs should also change into something more attractive yet foreboding. The Spartan Hoplites bif is something that needs more work. I have an alternative bif for the Spartans which I will show below, complete with shields and icons too:) I may be able to help with the Persian units too if you require my assistance. For the record I have modified the Hellenic bifs by editing most of them pixel by pixel. Difficult, yes but look at the result :)

Spartan Hoplites


Standard Hoplites


Here is one possibility for a heavy Eastern/Persian unit. It's still work in progress.

HeavyEasternUnit.bmp

[macsen rufus]

Looking good all round - I think we're gooing to need more variety of hoplites fir the Diadochi scenario when that comes around. And those 'biblicals' look like good additions for the North African and Hebrew roster, too

I don't have a lot of time before scooting off to work, so I'm going to continue in the main thread....

Edit to add: yep, the boyz arrived on the doorstep. Probably a bit jetlagged, but I'll unpack in the morning and see if I can make them jump around some (it's 2am now, so best left til after some sleep...)

[dimitrios the samian]

[QUOTE=Leith;2053706669]....... It might be a good idea to change your African pikemen a bit more. Changing the skin colour will make them different but not attractive enough. You might want to fiddle with the helm or change the armour colour into silver or dark bronze for example.......... I think the Karkades and Immortals bifs should also change into something more attractive yet foreboding....... The Spartan Hoplites bif is something that needs more work. I have an alternative bif for the Spartans which I will show below, complete with shields and icons too:) ..............I may be able to help with the Persian units too if you require my assistance. For the record I have modified the Hellenic bifs by editing most of them pixel by pixel. Difficult, yes but look at the result :)
[QUOTE=Leith;2053706669]

Hello Leith ...

Your Hellenic units look great mate ! pixel by pixel Wow ,
Im sure Macsen will use them all ... just send him a pm & you can email them to him .

I must also comment on your great Unit Panel Icons , they look great mate , jut a quick lance & you can differentiate the Hoplite Troops , did you do those also ?

I know the work required is enormous , but I feel we are so blessed with this great game & even moreso that we have banded together again & all have skills & enthusiasm to boot .

ok re:African Hoplites ,Yes I agree they would look much nicer "slightly different" feel free to draw up a front side & two oblique views for us to have a look

I thank you for yr offer to help & I accept ........ for the meantime lets keep pixeling the time away

Do share your thoughts or a few pics on the Kardakes & Immortals & I will start a thread later on & post pics in that thread of what we currently have now ( Hellenic & Bronze & ATW).

Question , Do you use the Green& Purple for faction colours on the units ?
Do you use Photoshop or another program ?
Have you re made a complete new bif plate yet ? ...( I really want to learn this )

re: pixel by pixel >> I have made a big discovery in the way I re-skin , cutting time down by a huge amount (more later as I refine it & then share it here )

cheers for now Leith & some more eye candy



Mac .... meet Abdul , Mohamed , Habib & his mate , Slingers !!
No more Vikings pretending to be Greeks or Easterners
more on progress later .

[macsen rufus]

Ok, I have the tunic guys, mostly belted and booted. I can get them working as is, I think, without too much trouble and when the final plates are done just update it again.

Familiar story - you send guys to the front and some corrupt quarternmaster nicks half the boots to sell on the black market

[dimitrios the samian]

Good news ! they work fine
Im looking forward to seeing them in beta testing & beta form , hehe .
I'll have them finished before the first Full Release of ROP.
In the meantime , I'll plug away on the other troops .
cheers for now , back in 12hrs , zzzzzzzzzz

[Leith]

Hello Dimitrios!

Regarding unit icons, I sometimes take them from other mods designed for RTW. I resize them and change them slightly or heavily depending on the situation.

I always include the faction colours in my bifs one way or another. However I sometimes focus on one major colour for the bif while preserving a small room for faction colours. Case in point, red is the major colour in the spartan Hoplites bif but the shoulders are blue reflecting the faction colour.

I usually do all the modding/editing using Photoshop but I use CorelDraw to get the bmps into the only mode the MTW engine approves of : the 8-bit mode.

Regarding Egyptian/African pikmen, I'll see what I can do. I hope you will not lose your enthusiasm for modding MTW :)