Terrorist Spree

[Pannonian]

In some ghetto and growing up with the "locals" never wanting to talk to them?
Aren't those the areas where a lot of the recruits come from? Then you'd have to say the mistakes were made long before multiculturalism was even a word. At least here we imported the first Turks purely out of greed and to be competitive, which may explain why the Germans tried to ignore them. I'm not sure why France, Britain and the Netherlands for example have so many immigrants from their colonies, do they have free movement or easier immigration? Or do they just prefer their former colonial overlords because they already speak the language?

I don't think anyone can seriously claim that all the muslims in Britain and France only came with the recent waves of refugees, even in Germany we had some very few black people who already lived here under the Nazis, I'd assume in France and Britain there were quite a few more, and that the French used them as soldiers who could never become officers in WW2 should be known as well. Another reason they are often disenfranchized by the way. One may say the situation for them improved with multiculturalism, but they were already burnt by that time and the ghettos established. Multiculturalism doesn't close ghettos in practice.

I know Arabs and Turks who were born here and are basically Germans with a few quirks, apparently the people in the banlieus (forgive me if I forgot a letter that you don't spell anyway) for example are not like that, why?
That still leaves some who think being an islamofascist is a cool underground fashion thing to defend their master race or something, but as Fragony always says, nothing we can do, other than maybe make it appear less cool in general. They seem to argue with the West treating its immigrants like second class people as well.

So what do you think the reasons are?

PS: The reason I don't quite buy purely religious reasons for such zeal might be that I grew up going to very fundamentalist Christian churches, I actually know a guy who went to Texas and preached on campuses there... (you may not want to believe it, but he's actually a cool guy in general, I'm not saying I don't like him)
And I somehow got the impression that these Christians also often have their rather personal reasons to invest this much into their religion, it's not just the religion alone, it can be a fear of permanent death, really bad experiences with the general atheist world and their "friends" outside the church, so that they need a reason why it is this way, and so on. And muslim people are not genetically different from Christian people so that it could explain a completely different behavior I think. The major difference is probably that they have a much larger percentage that grows up in this more fundamentalist muslim world.

AFAIK there aren't any ethnic ghettos in the UK. Ghettos, such as they are, are inhabited by class, not race. Where cultural separation exists, it does so because of choice on the individual's part. Older generations, where the cultural gap can be expected to be greater, fit in quite well with the general older population. It is the younger population, who were born here and grew up as British as everyone else, who provide most of the troublemakers. After the ethnic tensions of the early 1980s, blacks, who are even further removed from the native white skins than brown skinned people, have merged into the general British identity, so that there is less of a distinct Afro-Caribbean culture left nowadays among the younger population (it's all part of the young British culture). In contrast, young Muslims who emphasise their Muslim identity react against the cultural merger, maintaining through their own choice a separation between Muslim culture and British culture.

Other cultures have merged within a general British culture, to the point where there is greater difference between different generations of the same ethnicity than between different ethnicities within the same generation. Why is it the fault of the host culture if some aliens, born in their midst and with the same upbringing as everyone else, decide to separate themselves?

[Husar]

AFAIK there aren't any ethnic ghettos in the UK. Ghettos, such as they are, are inhabited by class, not race. Where cultural separation exists, it does so because of choice on the individual's part. Older generations, where the cultural gap can be expected to be greater, fit in quite well with the general older population. It is the younger population, who were born here and grew up as British as everyone else, who provide most of the troublemakers. After the ethnic tensions of the early 1980s, blacks, who are even further removed from the native white skins than brown skinned people, have merged into the general British identity, so that there is less of a distinct Afro-Caribbean culture left nowadays among the younger population (it's all part of the young British culture). In contrast, young Muslims who emphasise their Muslim identity react against the cultural merger, maintaining through their own choice a separation between Muslim culture and British culture.

Other cultures have merged within a general British culture, to the point where there is greater difference between different generations of the same ethnicity than between different ethnicities within the same generation. Why is it the fault of the host culture if some aliens, born in their midst and with the same upbringing as everyone else, decide to separate themselves?

Yes, that explanation does make some sense indeed, Christians also preach about not joining the "world", i.e. atheists etc., because it is ruled by the devil and they have to remain distinct, stay away from the temptations and so on. I can see how very religious muslims are the same.
What I'm not sure about though is what can be done because citizenship is usually unrevokable and if they were born in Britain, they should have it. Other countries would also likely refuse to take them. Trying to reduce extremism somehow would seem the closest approach, no? And then I'm not sure if the same explanation is valid for France, Germany or Belgium, basically whether it is indeed like that for every extremist out there. After all, plenty of them do come from countries like Algeria for example, and they're the ones giving the European youths ideas over the web etc., no?

[AE Bravo]

PS: The reason I don't quite buy purely religious reasons for such zeal might be that I grew up going to very fundamentalist Christian churches, I actually know a guy who went to Texas and preached on campuses there... (you may not want to believe it, but he's actually a cool guy in general, I'm not saying I don't like him)
And I somehow got the impression that these Christians also often have their rather personal reasons to invest this much into their religion, it's not just the religion alone, it can be a fear of permanent death, really bad experiences with the general atheist world and their "friends" outside the church, so that they need a reason why it is this way, and so on. And muslim people are not genetically different from Christian people so that it could explain a completely different behavior I think. The major difference is probably that they have a much larger percentage that grows up in this more fundamentalist muslim world.

I think you're generally on point with this, aside from underestimating religious zeal. These individuals tend to have extraordinary levels of faith that are only fueled by some of the traits you pointed out rather than defined by them. As a person who might have had a similar upbringing, I can say with certainty that the issue here is dogma unique to this religion, or at least the way it is taught to you. For fanatics, it only takes one part or understanding of the whole thing to surrender yourself to some apocalyptic vision or suicide - the idea that God has it all mapped out and there's no need to search for your own answers as they're already there. The problem here is that, especially among North African communities now prevalent in Europe, is that their motherlands carry that same hardwired understanding of religion. Countries in between Morocco and Egypt (excluded) have a radical commonplace Islamist culture, everyone whose been there knows that. This in turn affects the upbringing of some of these people in Europe. It's like those boys that murdered their parents in Saudi Arabia for not allowing them to go to 'holy war,' what they were taught in school is a tunnel-visioned view of a route to heaven so there was only one thing (in their mind) for them to do once their parents got in their way. That's how powerful it can be. Islamists can very well be like children touched by their uncle, or in this case an education that haunts them to this day.

I think that answers your question about why there is a larger percentage in the fundamentalist Muslim world. The belief that it is an intrinsic good no matter where it goes, which is a belief that has the luxury of being state-sponsored and socially acceptable.

What I'm not sure about though is what can be done because citizenship is usually unrevokable and if they were born in Britain, they should have it. Other countries would also likely refuse to take them. Trying to reduce extremism somehow would seem the closest approach, no? And then I'm not sure if the same explanation is valid for France, Germany or Belgium, basically whether it is indeed like that for every extremist out there. After all, plenty of them do come from countries like Algeria for example, and they're the ones giving the European youths ideas over the web etc., no?

One way would be to appeal to the crowd you're trying to win over. Establish that these fanatics are apostates and traitors to that religion so that the isolated Muslim communities can adopt this perception. Choosing words like "terrorist" for headlines only furthers insecurity, fear, and victimhood narratives. Think about it, the word now has become synonymous with derogatory terms that shouldn't even be at the same level. Imagine if that word was replaced by "mass murderer" or "apostate?" What glory would there be in 'martyrdom' then?

It might be a dishonest approach to some, but it's a compromise and might save lives.

[spmetla]

One way would be to appeal to the crowd you're trying to win over. Establish that these fanatics are apostates and traitors to that religion so that the isolated Muslim communities can adopt this perception. Choosing words like "terrorist" for headlines only furthers insecurity, fear, and victimhood narratives. Think about it, the word now has become synonymous with derogatory terms that shouldn't even be at the same level. Imagine if that word was replaced by "mass murderer" or "apostate?" What glory would there be in 'martyrdom' then?

It might be a dishonest approach to some, but it's a compromise and might save lives.

You can use those words if you like but it would likely have very little effect. Part of the problem lies with the ability today to insulate oneself from the outside world. It's too easy to go on the internet and find people you choose to self-identify with. Every little sub-culture today is able to find all it's other members via internet and feel that there's nothing wrong with them but instead find a caring community that blames the rest of society for not being like that particular subculture. This applies to many things beyond terrorism too like anti-vaccinations, general conspiracy theories and so on. You can't win an argument with people that refute all your terms and facts and prefer their interpretation of whatever other sources.
The Afghans Army folks I worked with use those words all the time in their propaganda against the Taliban together with videos of converted Taliban etc... and it only won over a few people, not the quantities that matter though if a single life can be saved I guess it is worth it. Not to mention it'd be a strange cross over from church/state in most Western countries if they start to define what is apostasy when they don't have a state religion.

It is a very difficult conundrum of how can we win over dis-enfranchised young men. Probably would be better to point out a way in our society in which they can be 'real men' to confirm their masculinity that working a minimum wage job doesn't provide. The people that would rather be thugs or gangsters instead of working a 'lame job' are equally as dangerous as those with extreme religious convictions.

I see it often enough in the US, people have their redneck pride. Young men don't want to go to school and be yuppies, they'd rather be lumberjacks, fishermen, cowboys or something else simple and 'manly.' Mechanized work doesn't make it easy for these people though who are more likely to just fall into alcoholism, drugs, and illicit under the table work that eventually turns criminal. This is part of the reason that women are becoming the larger percentage in colleges. Studying to be a librarian, nurse, bank teller, etc... are unmanly and therefore not to be pursued. The military which probably used to be the destination for these people has too high standards with too much discipline and so on to appeal.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

...I see it often enough in the US, people have their redneck pride. Young men don't want to go to school and be yuppies, they'd rather be lumberjacks, fishermen, cowboys or something else simple and 'manly.' Mechanized work doesn't make it easy for these people though who are more likely to just fall into alcoholism, drugs, and illicit under the table work that eventually turns criminal. This is part of the reason that women are becoming the larger percentage in colleges. Studying to be a librarian, nurse, bank teller, etc... are unmanly and therefore not to be pursued. The military which probably used to be the destination for these people has too high standards with too much discipline and so on to appeal.

Not what I see. I see a lot of folks who mouth off about politicians, lawyers, doctors and the like -- saying that we should be all about putting people back to work in manufacturing -- while making sure their kids get to the better schools and law school or med school to follow so they can get their piece of the pie.

[AE Bravo]

You can use those words if you like but it would likely have very little effect. Part of the problem lies with the ability today to insulate oneself from the outside world. It's too easy to go on the internet and find people you choose to self-identify with. Every little sub-culture today is able to find all it's other members via internet and feel that there's nothing wrong with them but instead find a caring community that blames the rest of society for not being like that particular subculture. This applies to many things beyond terrorism too like anti-vaccinations, general conspiracy theories and so on. You can't win an argument with people that refute all your terms and facts and prefer their interpretation of whatever other sources.
The Afghans Army folks I worked with use those words all the time in their propaganda against the Taliban together with videos of converted Taliban etc... and it only won over a few people, not the quantities that matter though if a single life can be saved I guess it is worth it. Not to mention it'd be a strange cross over from church/state in most Western countries if they start to define what is apostasy when they don't have a state religion.

It is a very difficult conundrum of how can we win over dis-enfranchised young men. Probably would be better to point out a way in our society in which they can be 'real men' to confirm their masculinity that working a minimum wage job doesn't provide. The people that would rather be thugs or gangsters instead of working a 'lame job' are equally as dangerous as those with extreme religious convictions.

I don’t think that’s the main issue, it’s the way they’re raised. You can give as much jobs as you like but at the end of the day, the way they’re raised is a key factor when they want to be about that life. Their families still consume media from their countries, which makes an effort to dispute the Islamophobia of western media. This is an ideological issue that has every reason to exist, not necessarily about status or jobs. Speaking about Europe, the US is different since a lot of communities’ problems are related. Radical thoughts are groomed and validated in the private sphere. A good start would be to speak the language that doesn't remind them of what the west has taken from them, to ease it into the host country or risk leaving it static. Jobs or standard of life aren't always powerful enough to change social discipline that goes back generations. Winning over dis-enfranchised communities and families is the best way to win over dis-enfranchised young men.

Those words that are now a norm give the ideologues mainstream attention and more reasons for them to exist. A heroic "terrorist" death is a dream come true for them.

Spend enough on education or jobs to deal with fascism and you might just end up with wealthy/educated fascists. What it boils down to is that there will always be the fortunate, like OBL, who choose that life and use the less fortunate to blow themselves up. Providing jobs and higher standard of living will just replace them with someone else who doesn't have that stuff.

[spmetla]

I don’t think that’s the main issue, it’s the way they’re raised. You can give as much jobs as you like but at the end of the day, the way they’re raised is a key factor when they want to be about that life. Their families still consume media from their countries, which makes an effort to dispute the Islamophobia of western media. This is an ideological issue that has every reason to exist, not necessarily about status or jobs. Speaking about Europe, the US is different since a lot of communities’ problems are related. Radical thoughts are groomed and validated in the private sphere. A good start would be to speak the language that doesn't remind them of what the west has taken from them, to ease it into the host country or risk leaving it static. Jobs or standard of life aren't always powerful enough to change social discipline that goes back generations. Winning over dis-enfranchised communities and families is the best way to win over dis-enfranchised young men.

Those words that are now a norm give the ideologues mainstream attention and more reasons for them to exist. A heroic "terrorist" death is a dream come true for them.

Spend enough on education or jobs to deal with fascism and you might just end up with wealthy/educated fascists. What it boils down to is that there will always be the fortunate, like OBL, who choose that life and use the less fortunate to blow themselves up. Providing jobs and higher standard of living will just replace them with someone else who doesn't have that stuff.

How people are raised of course matters, terrorism and crime are certainly not exclusive to any status group or job type. That being said someone that feels like they are getting something from the surrounding society be it self respect or financial success will be far less likely to commit crime or terrorism. For recent immigrants to the US or Europe their parents probably expected and still strive for a certain level of success, when the children or grandchildren of those first newcomers still don't have success they will probably see no point in even trying to push upward within the system. That's when people start to see the rise of 'ghetto pride' which in itself is a rejection of the rest of society. How does one win those people over? They are the ones that will commit crime and feel justified in doing so, this for both muslim groups and poor communities in the US.

Like you said we need to win over the disenfranchised community as a whole which will win over those young men that would otherwise do crime or violence, the start to that would be making them not disenfranchised but see a path upward in wealth and status. The conversation with them is important too. Being a thug or gangster is a point of pride for some people when it should be something their families should be ashamed of. They won't how ever see themselves as terrorists but as warriors, martyrs, freedom fighters etc.. instead.

It's very easy for young people to latch onto a 'cause' of any sort. For young muslim men being a member of ISIS may be just the sort of self respect and fulfillment they wanted. It gives them a sense of purpose, not different really than young people that join the FARC rebels in Columbia in order to fight capitalism/imperialism or go on mission to preach Christianity or protest whatever injustice the government is doing at the moment. Youth need a sense of purpose too. Like you said, jobs and standard of living don't provide that. A young man with few marketable skills isn't going to get the job or the standard of living though which leaves very few legitimate ways for a sense of purpose in anything he does.

[Husar]

Not what I see. I see a lot of folks who mouth off about politicians, lawyers, doctors and the like -- saying that we should be all about putting people back to work in manufacturing -- while making sure their kids get to the better schools and law school or med school to follow so they can get their piece of the pie.

Maybe you're both right and spmetla merely covered the people who think from the start that they will never be able to afford such an education for their children? Or maybe you just cover two ends of the cultural spectrum in the US?

[Strike For The South]

Not what I see. I see a lot of folks who mouth off about politicians, lawyers, doctors and the like -- saying that we should be all about putting people back to work in manufacturing -- while making sure their kids get to the better schools and law school or med school to follow so they can get their piece of the pie.

Dad?

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Dad?

Keep up the legal studies lad.

[spmetla]

Not what I see. I see a lot of folks who mouth off about politicians, lawyers, doctors and the like -- saying that we should be all about putting people back to work in manufacturing -- while making sure their kids get to the better schools and law school or med school to follow so they can get their piece of the pie.

I can only really speak for what I see here in Hawaii which has more rednecks and hippies than most would think. On my island kids can either go to school and then work in Honolulu or the mainland US or they can stay on the island and work in a hotel or agriculture unless they are professionals like the careers you listed. Here in Hawaii most Japanese, Chinese, Filipino or American/European ethnic backgrounds pursue just what you are talking about. They want agriculture and manufacturing in Hawaii again too but their kids go Punahou and then a good mainland school sot hey can do anything but those two industries.
The other ethnic groups in Hawaii (native Hawaiians, Micronesians, Samoas) do have access to those too but in general those aren't pushed by their families. Understandably many Hawaiians don't want to leave their particular district or island for work and instead become 'mokes' (pretty much rednecks). Nothing wrong with that but with the slow half measures toward Hawaiian independence or tribal status within the US and the increasingly hostile attitudes of these 'mokes' it wouldn't surprise me if they don't begin resorting to violence as well. Micronesians are belittle by all the other groups and keep largely to themselves creating a group that is almost permanently in the welfare category with no push to move up and with the corresponding increase in crime, especially for all their young males which I have more than enough problems with when I employ them on my farm.

Enough of the people I knew from highschool that decided to stay in Kona here make a living collecting unemployment while doing under the table work and selling pakalolo (marijuana).

I know that like it or not a lot of the world is broken into class that are still very much ethnically based, even if there is not official policy to keep it so. Poor ethnic bubbles that see themselves as unable to achieve what we define as success in terms of money or respectable careers will have people move into crime.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

I can only really speak for what I see here in Hawaii which has more rednecks and hippies than most would think. On my island kids can either go to school and then work in Honolulu or the mainland US or they can stay on the island and work in a hotel or agriculture unless they are professionals like the careers you listed. Here in Hawaii most Japanese, Chinese, Filipino or American/European ethnic backgrounds pursue just what you are talking about. They want agriculture and manufacturing in Hawaii again too but their kids go Punahou and then a good mainland school sot hey can do anything but those two industries.
The other ethnic groups in Hawaii (native Hawaiians, Micronesians, Samoas) do have access to those too but in general those aren't pushed by their families. Understandably many Hawaiians don't want to leave their particular district or island for work and instead become 'mokes' (pretty much rednecks). Nothing wrong with that but with the slow half measures toward Hawaiian independence or tribal status within the US and the increasingly hostile attitudes of these 'mokes' it wouldn't surprise me if they don't begin resorting to violence as well. Micronesians are belittle by all the other groups and keep largely to themselves creating a group that is almost permanently in the welfare category with no push to move up and with the corresponding increase in crime, especially for all their young males which I have more than enough problems with when I employ them on my farm.

Enough of the people I knew from highschool that decided to stay in Kona here make a living collecting unemployment while doing under the table work and selling pakalolo (marijuana).

I know that like it or not a lot of the world is broken into class that are still very much ethnically based, even if there is not official policy to keep it so. Poor ethnic bubbles that see themselves as unable to achieve what we define as success in terms of money or respectable careers will have people move into crime.

I think this is a common theme for Islands that are not the size of continents -- the primary export is people and the economy locally is seldom truly integrated and variegated enough. Heaven knows that my state, Florida, has scads of residents and citizens who were born on Islands in the Carribean.