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Thread: Ancient TW: GRAPHICS discussion

  1. #31
    Second-hand chariot salesman Senior Member macsen rufus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ancient TW: GRAPHICS discussion

    Re elephants - when I said I wanted three folders, that's for three different mounts: basic, cataphract and semi-cataphract

    I'd be surprised if the original HTW 3D models still exist, but if they did.....

    Yan, I was thinking of adding an extra action rather than replacing any - that would require so much 'surgery' to all the other units' actionpages and whatnot, I'm sure we'd be debugging it for years. Adding an extra action would just require those new rectangles to be defined in the actionpages for the new units using them.

    Now I've had a bit more of a play with the Ptolemies, I've had a chance to get the Aethiopioi epilektoi into the field - here they are, alongside regular Macedonian Pezhetairoi:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    and, yes, that Amazigh horseman LBM needs redoing, I dropped the ball somewhere in converting the last batch of unit icons.
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  2. #32
    Member Member dimitrios the samian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ancient TW: GRAPHICS discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by macsen rufus View Post
    Re elephants - when I said I wanted three folders, that's for three different mounts: basic, cataphract and semi-cataphract

    I'd be surprised if the original HTW 3D models still exist, but if they did....

    Mac ... You mean 3 different Elephants ?
    Seriously if we just remain as we are ... its 1 for 1 .

    3 Folders with Crew & Elephant combined > Gives us only 3 different Units .............. 4 for 4 etc etc ...

    Now !! .... If we separate the two components & yes still only using the one Elephant we have .

    SEPERATING ELEPHANT & CREW

    3 Folders > Gives us 4 different Units
    4 Folders > Gives us 6 different Units ...................... & so on & so on .


    Click image for larger version. 

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    Click image for larger version. 

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    I did these 2 pics quickly to illustrate my idea's & check the mounts ..... ( without measuring by eye , two mounts should fit into a Bif )

    Not pixel perfect yet !.......(so a bit of freehand around the cloths on the elephant & mounts ) plus a touch up around the ears & the two bifs would be ready to come together .

    .... & another idea I have had for a long time now is to use existing horse mounts , slightly modded to suit to sit on these beasts !

    About the 3d Model for the Elephant , we don't need it (thank god) what we have is thankfully enough , what we will need is the time to mod the various crews for different factions .

    I think setting co-ordinates on the bif plates is not as difficult as it seems .... 14 per plate

    If we add the other Elephant so we have both (African & Asian) ....
    We do the following to save 100's of hours of time/work .....
    It must "just be a re-skin on this Elephants base plate" .

    Likewise if we texture it with Armour

    All up , It is do-able .
    & If we had helpers , it would make it loads quicker .
    Last edited by dimitrios the samian; 08-16-2016 at 03:55.

  3. #33

    Default Re: Ancient TW: GRAPHICS discussion

    The infantry plates have space for additional slinger action then? In any case it's difficult to get someone to pick up from where the old designers left.

    Are the preview icons from HTW as well or there weren't any and you made them?

    Btw is it just me or the soldiers clothing look a bit pixelated? They seem to have anti-aliasing so it's probably because of the design and color scheme, the Elephants(skin texture) look great though!

  4. #34
    Member Member dimitrios the samian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ancient TW: GRAPHICS discussion

    No additional space , just 4 rectangles where our one & only Slinger is & in one folder only .
    They were not designers , just modders like us & I'm here working away with Macsen & yes it is hard to find people to help .
    Preview Icons are a mix of original MTW , Hellenic TW & Bronze Age plus some of Macsens & perhaps others also .
    You mean the Elephant Riders ? yes there clothing looks like pea soup close up , but its ok on the field ...
    How close to you get in battle ?

  5. #35
    Second-hand chariot salesman Senior Member macsen rufus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ancient TW: GRAPHICS discussion

    Before you do too much with elephants, consider that the HTW team did something very unusual with cavalry... I'm not sure why, but basically all the HTW cav is made as 'riders', mounted on to a single transparent pixel. It could be because of all the chariot teams they included, using up all the 'horse' folders. Anyway, it confuses matter somewhat...

    To be honest I'm not bothered about having different crews - different elephants would be a nice luxury IF we had spare folders, but for now the one elephant in two different scales for Indian and African will suffice. (I tested out the different scales, and it works fine )

    As DtS said, some uniticons are from HTW - in the screenshot above, the three on the left are mine, the three (well one, really...) on the right is from HTW. As for slinger actions, well, it should be possible to make some room in some of the BIFs with a bit of juggling.
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  6. #36
    Member Member dimitrios the samian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ancient TW: GRAPHICS discussion

    Before you do too much with elephants, consider that the HTW team did something very unusual with cavalry ......

    I won't be doing much with the Beasts at present ... got my 4 bifs we need in order & progressing smoothly .
    bcoz for me its a totally new beginning its taking way extra long "but with benefits" for future clean up jobs

    Consider that the HTW team did something very unusual with cavalry ...

    hmmm ? interesting .... we leave as be at present , ( but if you can enlighten me unravel this mystery ) it could be a blessing in disguise .
    But briefly, we both know if we separate the rider from Horse we can save upwards of 3 or 4 folders & in scenario's were so many Chariots are not required we have ample Folders .

    To be honest I'm not bothered about having different crews ..........

    hehe , Im the opposite I will relish the challenge to construct crews "should we free up folders" ....

    different elephants would be a nice luxury IF we had spare folders ........

    I agree !! I will take them any day & we only need one spare

    but for now the one elephant in two different scales for Indian and African will suffice. (I tested out the different scales, and it works fine...

    Awesome news !! f@#%in Superb !! .....

    Does the scaling leave riders as they are & only make the Beast larger ?


    Anyway ..........of topic slightly but "Folder" related nevertheless .....

    Our Barbarian Slinger he lacks projectiles ( nothing visible on screen) at least for my install .
    Is this because he was placed in a folder not suitable ?


    Cheers
    Last edited by dimitrios the samian; 08-17-2016 at 04:29.

  7. #37
    Second-hand chariot salesman Senior Member macsen rufus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ancient TW: GRAPHICS discussion

    Our Barbarian Slinger he lacks projectiles ( nothing visible on screen) at least for my install .
    Is this because he was placed in a folder not suitable ?
    No, nothing to do with folders - it depends what the projectilestats.txt calls up - some projectiles don't show on screen (eg arquebus shot), so it could have been based on one of those. I haven't delved into it ...
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  8. #38
    Member Member dimitrios the samian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ancient TW: GRAPHICS discussion

    [I]: UPDATE :

    Hellenic Bif : 90%
    Ptolemaic African Hoplites : 90%

    Guys , made very little progress on these two over the past 3 wks .
    I suppose I could have had them finished , but my time away from these two bifs has been spent on advancing my skills & it has yielded huge technique improvements & new methods working PSP & BIfReader .
    So all up it was valuable time/spent wisely ........ also got started on my BetaTesting

    The Hellenics , especially the 4 standing figs along with the Archers legs no longer have flashing bits & rolling sandals & sparkling hair , gone also is the snaking on their belts & collars ...... yep , they were a mess before

    I still need to put faces on the remaining figs that run/walk/fight( as I messed about too much before ) .
    I'll do it in two or 3 concentrated sessions , side by side on PSP using an original & my bif , utilising the cut & paste or magic wand method , the results will make them look very nice (at least to me) .

    I repacked the Hoplite back into a Bif again today , I spent a few hours 2 wks ago laying the dark base coat on their skin , now in motion frame by frame , i'll finish of their skin ( highlights) & cutting in edges & also add a few touches !

    I'll give an estimate mac & say this time next week they will be shipped over to you , by email
    [/I]
    Last edited by dimitrios the samian; 08-18-2016 at 11:56.

  9. #39
    Member Member Leith's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ancient TW: GRAPHICS discussion

    Don't worry dimitrios! It used to take me 7-10 days to finish a bif when I first started then things got easier as I began to know what to look for while editing/creating a model. I'm sure the final product is worth it!

  10. #40
    Second-hand chariot salesman Senior Member macsen rufus's Avatar
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    Default Combining unit texture BIFs

    I was intrigued by another of Stazi's discoveries:

    For the last few days I've been testing usability of 1024x1024 textures for units. The goal is to avoid the hardcoded limit of units' folders and place more units in one texture. It works flawlessly but they are some exceptions.

    As we know, grid is always 256x256. When I put an original 512x512 unit texture into a new 1024x1024 (I was aiming for 4 units in one texture) I have to reduce the frames' rectangles by half. It makes a unit appear in game half of its original size. To counter this I tried to use SCALE parameter in unit_prod file. The problem is the max value of it is 225. Default value for cavalry units is 138. It means than even if we use the max 225 value a unit is still about 40% too small.............
    More here

    I was so intrigued,in fact, I just had to try it out

    I noticed a couple of very similar plates whilst skimming through my archive of BMPs (I keep a directory full of them to quickly identify BIFs without having to open them up each time). One of the BIFs was only used for a single unit, the gastraphetes, whilst the other carries quite a lot, include Punic Archers, Yficratian Hoplites, Late Hoplites etc etc. The gastraphetes had the same attack, charge and die animations, but the shoot, walk and run were different - so a total of 12 'rectangles' to copy over.

    I have succeeded in creating a combined plate of 640x640px, which includes all the actions from both of the original 512x512 BIFs, plus the weapons, plus a few extra shields (which will be needed for more Hellenistic units...) It was a long-winded and finicky job, but with care and planning it was mostly rote repetition to carry eveything across and place it consistently into all twelve frames of the new BIF.

    This gives some idea of what's been done:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    I did the usual, and made a 50% sized copy for lo-res use, but it turns out the engine still renders it down to a 256x256 for picking the animation rectangles. I thought it would be a simple job setting the actionpage coordinates, as I expected most of them to match the originals. In the end I had to scale everything by 80% (256/320) to get it to pick up the right bits. It worked straight away in battle (ie didn't CTD), but was selecting an odd mix of images until I had scaled the actionpage

    Of course everything came out smaller than usual, but that was quickly fixed in the unit_prod by adjusting the 'SCALE' column x1.25 (now you should see why I chose 640px as the new size....)

    The real pain in the rear is that all the shield and weapon co-ordinates need to be reset, and that is taking longer than all the rest combined. There's no simple way to scale this, so it's a matter of going through all the actions in the items directory and changing them one by one. I'm most of the way through the hoplite shields and one set of coordinates will do for all the units, being as they all hold their shields in the same way.

    One extra benefit is that I've now worked out how BIFreader allows you to try out shield positions - it's still long-winded, but a lot better than guessing and then trying out in battle.

    And before anyone starts eyeing the gastraphetes' old folder, I've already bagsied it
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  11. #41
    Member Member dimitrios the samian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Combining unit texture BIFs

    Awesome news Macsen .... this is huge & Inspiring .
    I too had read Stazi's threads & you may have noticed ?.
    Imagine the difference/richer the Mods would have been a decade ago if this was implemented
    Wow ! Im just reminiscing back to the old "Bronze Age" mod days , what could have been hmmmm
    Had I had progressed on from just that one simple Brothel Icon

    Anyway my queries .

    I have succeeded in creating a combined plate of 640x640px >>>
    Of course everything came out smaller than usual, but that was quickly fixed in the unit_prod by adjusting the 'SCALE' column x1.25 (now you should see why I chose 640px as the new size....) >>>


    ...... 640x640 brilliant
    but !! .... Is it the next size down from the difficult 1024x1024 ? .... confirm this mac its crucial .


    I noticed a couple of very similar plates whilst skimming through my archive of BMPs .....

    Me too when my graphics journey began & similiarity is very very good !
    Lets use it to our advantage
    eg all Hoplites Plates & even the Generic Hellenic ( & Barbarian Slinger less 4 rectangles ).

    but ....>> These 2 Bifs need some "pre-adjustments" before you/we finalise putting the co-ordinates in place.

    [ I will elaborate on these adjustments a bit later today , its a simple procedure & we should do it first .
    Before we invest more precious time & effort on this aspect ]

    (As briefly the Gen-Hellenic Bif will soon spawn > the Biblical Archers , better Indians , new Egyptians & Thracians )
    & with this discovery , I will incorporate a brand spanking new Slinger into all of the above ]


    The real pain in the rear is that all the shield and weapon co-ordinates need to be reset .

    ....... true it is , so don't set any co-ords in concrete yet mac ..
    First we make these simple adjustments to the 2 bif plates ...
    So its done once from the start & those co-ords become the blue-print for the rest of them to follow .

    I'll prep some pics to post , then elaboarate further .



    ps ..... the remaining Bronze Age Bifs from the Hellenic Team all come into these equation also
    Last edited by dimitrios the samian; 08-23-2016 at 08:47.

  12. #42
    Second-hand chariot salesman Senior Member macsen rufus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Combining unit texture BIFs

    Is it the next size down from the difficult 1024x1024 ? .... confirm this mac its crucial .
    No, it's about optimum. 1024px is not so much 'difficult' as too large, because the engine still renders the lo-res at 256px, ie the units will be reduced in size (ie height) by 50%. As Stazi noted, you can only scale up so far, and using a 1024 plate puts it beyond that range, so it wasn't even on the starting blocks.

    You need to scale different things in opposing directions - ie selection rectangles need to be reduced back to fit into 256x256, whilst the unit scale needs to be increased on units in expanded plates. At 640 the maths (and therefore the mechanics) works out quite sweetly: what needs reducing goes to 4/5 (80%), and what needs increasing goes to 5/4 (125%).

    I did consider going to 768px, as that would be 4/3 and 3/4, but I find that scaling images by factors of three gets messy - especially downwards, and it also gets too close to the scaling limit for restoring the size of units. Plus the larger the hi-res plate, the lower the resolution in the lo-res plate.

    If you look closely at the image I posted, it will also become obvious that all the bodies fit within the regular plate size. This particular model is unique in the whole range in that it is the only one that would need to have 12 actions carried over. There is more than enough room for simply adding slinging actions. But for practicalities, it means that for things like the biblicals you can use a whole 512x512 plate for just the men, forgetting about shields and weapons: I can contruct that side of things later.

    As I said, it was a deliberate choice of size, and this is the reason for it - I did think it through before starting .

    There's no point in doing this with the remaining hoplite plates, simply because they don't have any other actions to include - and it's way too much work to do for no benefit!

    There are other things that can be combined, but now's not the time, as it relates more to the overall project than the current scenario.
    Last edited by macsen rufus; 08-23-2016 at 11:05.
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  13. #43
    Member Member dimitrios the samian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Combining unit texture BIFs

    No, it's about optimum ..................

    Thanks Mac , a simple no would been enough
    but I do appreciate the extra distance you went it explaining it , I just don't want to rob you of time u may spend doing coding .
    So its confirmed now &
    I can begin .............


    First up one weaknesses (for lack of a better word) in the original HTW Bif Plates .
    Sizing > Check the first pic ...


    Click image for larger version. 

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    Figures 5 6 7 & 15 are way oversized .
    Figures 9 10 11 12 & 1 Archer are way undersized .


    We can easily remedy this .
    The advantages far outway the work ..... it will balance out the top line especially thus giving the 4
    Stading figures a bit more room ......

    Eventually Toxotes can have Bows showing , Singers with slings & even the Peltasts with their 4 Javs !! all on the one set of 4 standing figures .

    Eventually with this bigger BifPlate , if we choose to they can be made to walk & run holding there weapons .

    I have made a discovery also , but need to experiment a little before revealing it !!

    Now some more good news , ... It is about the Rectangles / Co-Ordinates .
    They are identical ! ... see the 2nd Pic .


    Click image for larger version. 

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    Changing the co-ords for the rectangles on the top two lines is not so complex & they would cover all our HTW Plates ....( Easterns also)

    SUMMING UP :

    With the confirmation of the 640x640 a reality .
    It is possible to finally do lots more & re-design the Bif plates for maximum usage .
    I do think it best we get the figures all scaled properly & spaced out .
    Then we have options so graphics can be added in stages ...... ( these little extras will take time , but I'm willing to chip away after the important ones are done ).
    .


    Click image for larger version. 

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    There's no point in doing this with the remaining hoplite plates, simply because they don't have any other actions to include - and it's way too much work to do for no benefit ..............

    Not entirely true mac , there may come a time were we need a folder or 2 ( for different grades of hoplites )
    So having the option to combine & save us Plates/Bifs , if need be is a plus & we can easily do when the time comes .

    There are other things that can be combined, but now's not the time, as it relates more to the overall project than the current scenario .....

    ............ very true , you read my mind
    Last edited by dimitrios the samian; 08-24-2016 at 03:26.

  14. #44
    Second-hand chariot salesman Senior Member macsen rufus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Combining unit texture BIFs

    Some interesting ideas there, DtS, but some of them could open a can of worms ...

    First up one weaknesses (for lack of a better word) in the original HTW Bif Plates .
    Sizing > Check the first pic ...
    I'd be very wary of resizing these - it will alter the rendering of the unit on screen, change its origin point and consequently the positioning of shields and weapons, all of which will have to be redone for every unit in every frame at every angle. The difference in size is pretty tiny compared to the variations you get on-screen anyway, with the poor way the engine handles its attempts at perspective. Even in a hoplite phalanx with identical figures you still see variations in size.

    TBH I think the work will far outweigh the benefits, because it will cascade through so much other stuff that will need to be altered to suit.

    EDIT to add: for a more obvious reason not to try this, just run the timer in BIF reader .... you'll see the running figures bob up and down within their rectangle, and the archer raises his bow right to the top of his window, too.

    Likewise, the images don't need 'more room'. They have their rectangles, that's all they need. Putting space between them means re-doing all the actionpage files (and cuts out some a lot of the short-cuts for working on these).

    Adding the new actions - like more images for archers carrying their bows - should work out well. (Hold fire on the peltasts for now, I have a cunning plan...)

    Now some more good news , ... It is about the Rectangles / Co-Ordinates .
    They are identical ! ... see the 2nd Pic .
    That's been a great help in putting together many of my new units over the years.... and also a another reason why I don't think the individual actions should be re-sized.

    Makes sense that the HTW team would have a system when producing the BIFs and it looks like they worked from the same basic model with various finishes. It also helps with weapons and shields...

    there may come a time were we need a folder or 2 ( for different grades of hoplites )
    There are already 7 different bodies for hoplites (not including the Africans) out of a total of 49 folders. I think that's enough resources for them
    Last edited by macsen rufus; 08-25-2016 at 00:06.
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    Second-hand chariot salesman Senior Member macsen rufus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ancient TW: GRAPHICS discussion

    Another folder liberated

    A major rework of the half-naked barbarian BIF (slingers etc) means all the units have been brought back into the one folder, and slingers now have weapons to fight with in melee. They're still only clubs, but at least it's better than pure fisticuffs

    Back to the fray....
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  16. #46
    Member Member dimitrios the samian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ancient TW: GRAPHICS discussion

    No worries mac , I will leave the existing figures in their rectangles as sized .............. damn its a simple yet complex dilemma

    I'm fully aware of the rectangles & shields now .... So the few days I invested in studying them is once again valuable & has paid dividends .

    I won't waste any time on this as its all working just fine , but with the new Biblical waiting next in line .

    I will go the extra few hours & make a few adjustments to the culprits . [ but do not worry it will not affect the existing rectangle sizes/positions ]

    What I will do is reduce the 4 oversized figs , they will remain in there same rectangles ....
    & I will positioning them behind their shield also , saving all the work - only the centre of gravity ( red point) will need re-positioning .

    You gotta understand this from an artists perspective ( which I am not ) but doing all this remodelling is satisfying & eerily familiar .....
    So it feels like sacrilege re-skinning images that are not correct .
    Anyway knowing its done properly (from the start) on figures of all equal in size is rewarding
    ( & it won't be that much extra work)

    Adding the new actions - like more images for archers carrying their bows - should work out well. (Hold fire on the peltasts for now, I have a cunning plan...)......

    I will hold out here no worries , im excited to see what you will reveal about Peltasts .
    Good to see you tweaked the Barbarian Slinger ..... He will soon be for the Barbarians Only !

    ....... adding to more great news is , I have finally created a fully working Generic Hellenic Slinger built from the Bif Plate .

    At present its only one angle & its smooth & very impressive .

    So lets hold out also , before we finalize that major Bif Plate design .

    We mull it over carefully , all the pro's & cons as we both know it is a very important BifPlate/Folder .

    .. From it soon we will get the Biblicals , then new Egyptians , better Indians & more can follow etc etc .

    cheers
    Last edited by dimitrios the samian; 08-25-2016 at 02:53.

  17. #47
    Second-hand chariot salesman Senior Member macsen rufus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ancient TW: GRAPHICS discussion

    The Golden Rule for modding is to make one change at a time.

    What I'd suggest is for the simple re-skinning, do an initial run through keeping all the sizes the same, so that everything works with existing sets of coordinates (redoing these is FAR more tedious than repainting pixel-by-pixel). Then when that works (and gives us a safe roll-back point in the event of unforeseen consequences) try out your ideas on different sizes, and see what still works.

    My gut feel is that moving the origin point will cause the figures - and/or weapons and shields - to jump around between frames, which will look a lot worse than any minor size discrepancies. And as I mentioned above, you get more variation between different renderings of THE SAME IMAGE in battle than you see between different images in the BIF plate.

    I accept the artistic viewpoint, but to coin an ungainly metaphor: I'm happy to let an artist decide what colour to paint the bridge, but I want the engineers to decide what grade of steel to use to build it
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  18. #48
    Second-hand chariot salesman Senior Member macsen rufus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ancient TW: GRAPHICS discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by macsen rufus View Post
    ... the HTW team did something very unusual with cavalry... I'm not sure why, but basically all the HTW cav is made as 'riders', mounted on to a single transparent pixel ...
    As part of my latest development, I've been looking into cavalry in more detail, and as I've mentioned elsewhere, this method the HTW team used has a big drawback in that it creates a massive area over which you can 'select' a cavalry unit on the battlefield. I've now found out why, and have fixed it

    The result is that the cursor only detects the cavalry unit if it is directly over one of the sprites, and not in the surrounding five acres of battlefield. The fix is simple, and will work in an HTW install too.

    If you look at textures/men/actionspage/LiHorse.txt it will look like this all the way down:

    walk
    253 253 252 252 254 254
    253 253 252 252 254 254
    253 253 252 252 254 254
    253 253 252 252 254 254
    This means the empty pixels at (252,252) to (254,254) form the 'invisible' mount for the riders (which are rendered complete with their own horse or even elephant). The problem comes with the first two digits - these set the origin point of the unit, but should be relative to the unit . This file puts the origin 250 odd pixels away from the sprite, and so creates that massive 'select' area on the battle field.

    The fix is simply to change all the entries to:

    walk
    1 -1 252 252 254 254
    1 -1 253 252 252 254 254
    1 -1 253 252 252 254 254
    1 -1 253 252 252 254 254
    This puts the origin back into the few pixels of invisible horse, and so you can only select it by hovering over the sprite itself. This will cut out heaps of confusion in battle



    Further on unit icons and relative heights of sprites - this screenie addresses both:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    This is some of the new stuff for the Armenian faction in Successors scenario. Take a good look at the spearmen of the general's unit. Every single man is generated from the exact same rectangle in the same frame (of course some are reflected in true MTW style...). Their heights are all over the shop. It seems the engine randomises them to some degree when rendering (probably to stop it looking too uniform). Anyway, the point is, there's absolutely nothing to be gained in changing sizes in the BIFs.
    Last edited by macsen rufus; 08-25-2016 at 16:34. Reason: sp.
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  19. #49
    Member Member dimitrios the samian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ancient TW: GRAPHICS discussion

    You are correct mac .. No point in worfying about small discrepancies ..."thems the figs we got thems the ones we use"
    And great work unlocking the Cavalry legacy .
    Those first two units are almost ready so you will have them soon ..gotta get some zzzz's .
    Ciao for now

  20. #50
    Second-hand chariot salesman Senior Member macsen rufus's Avatar
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    Default Further progress on cavalry!

    OK, so I've made another breakthrough with the horses

    The background being that HTW legacy is the LiHorse folder being used for this empty-pixel mount to make the cavalry units work as cavalry rather than infantry. This means there is a whole animation of the original LiHorse unit which is not being used. Now, the way cav works is that it must declare a MOUNT in column 48 (eg Persian Horse Archers):

    "BOWMAN, YES, YES, LIHORSE"
    where the BOWMAN bif is a complete horse+rider jobby, 'mounted' on to the empty pixels defined as LiHorse.

    The LiHorse 'mount' is defined by the actionspage (as above) to be those empty pixels, and in the prodfile column 48, its entry is:

    "LIHORSE, NO, YES"
    So the obvious question is: can a different mount be defined in the unit_prod, to use the actual animations in the LiHorse BIF? ie does the 'LiHorse' in column 48 for the Persian Horse Archers refer to the LiHorse UNIT, or to the LiHorse.BIF?

    The upshot is that I tried defining a new unit 'NuHorse', that is also drawn from the LiHorse folder, and added a copy of the original LiHorse actionspage, retitled it NuHorse, and then made a new cavalry unit that used NuHorse as its mount, and used a separate rider to sit on it.

    IT WORKED!

    This means there is now room for one more horse model. I can feel an attack of the cataphracts coming on

    I can already hear the Armenians and Seleucids rejoicing...
    Last edited by macsen rufus; 08-25-2016 at 18:03. Reason: gr.
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    Second-hand chariot salesman Senior Member macsen rufus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Further progress on cavalry!

    Here's a 'first draft' of the Armenian Cataphracts, using vanilla-issue horse and a rider from Duke John's 'Ancient' package:

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	arm_cat.jpg 
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    Still a bit of work to do, especially with coordinates as mount and rider don't always meet up from certain camera angles, but it's a start
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  22. #52
    Member Member dimitrios the samian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Further progress on cavalry!

    Awesome news all round mac !
    One more free folder is absolutely fantastic & even more valuable if its used in 640x640 mode .
    I must say that I don't understand the logistics behind it all , but its ok that you described your discovery ( another nugget).
    When I get over this nasty bug that trying to kill me , I may be able to comprehend how you unravelled it all .
    I must say , I always wanted to mention those two cavalry bifs by the Duke (but I didn't want to add to your plate)
    Overall nice ..... must get some rest meds & fluid into me .... be back later .

  23. #53
    Second-hand chariot salesman Senior Member macsen rufus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Further progress on cavalry!

    Hi DtS,

    Hope the lurgy isn't getting you down too much - rest and fluids is as good a solution as any, usually...

    Well, the folder isn't free any more, it now has the cataphract horse in it

    I'm still looking at the possibility of a two-horse BIF, looks like it would need a 768x768, and there's some number-crunching to do for the scaling, but I'll be trying it out in due course (so long as the numbers work). The one worry is whether it will have weird interactions with riders - and I have a horrible feeling it will. But suck it and see....

    Got the Armenian Cataphracts sorted out for shields and weapons, and found an uncharacteristic error in Duke John's action pages, which was causing the riders to hover above their horses from some angles - the unit 'origin' was 2pixels out. Oh, and some of those had too many legs - I had to do a few amputations

    But all looks good now, and I really discovered the hidden powers of BIFreader for setting shields and weapons. It's the tool I always wanted and never realised I had it all along! It has still taken me best part of a day to get it all crack on, but it IS all crack on. Now I know what it can do, there's soooo much I can fix that has been bugging me (especially in the 'hovering weapons' and 'implausibly large shields' departments - there are even some of these bugs in original MTW, iirc).

    I have a few more ideas up my sleeve, so will have a good play, and if they work out .. watch this space.

    Cheers for now, and look after yourself.

    EDIT to add this pic of the new Armenian Cataphracts in action:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by macsen rufus; 08-28-2016 at 01:05.
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  24. #54
    Member Member dimitrios the samian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Further progress on cavalry!

    UPDATE :
    Been over two weeks since I last updated & I'm glad to report im 90% over an illness & today for the first time in over a week or more I managed to do 2 hours of re-skinning
    Finishing of the Ptolemaic African Hoplites & there looking superb , come along so much smoother & faster than my first Bif .
    I'm looking forward to putting in another session or two 2mro & continue on over the weekend till these are finished , & then pick up , touch up & I should have the Hellenics done next week also .
    cheers
    Last edited by dimitrios the samian; 09-02-2016 at 10:56.

  25. #55
    Second-hand chariot salesman Senior Member macsen rufus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Further progress on cavalry!

    Glad you're over the worst of the lurgy, and looking forward to seeing the new BIFs - their folders are reserved and dusted down for their arrival
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    Second-hand chariot salesman Senior Member macsen rufus's Avatar
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    Default I sucked it, and spat it out again...

    I'm still looking at the possibility of a two-horse BIF, looks like it would need a 768x768, and there's some number-crunching to do for the scaling, but I'll be trying it out in due course (so long as the numbers work). The one worry is whether it will have weird interactions with riders - and I have a horrible feeling it will. But suck it and see....
    Well, I sucked, and so did the results

    I tried the basic idea by converting the ArmHorse BIF to a 640x640 hi-res plate, and did the necessary rescaling of the rectangles to pick up the actions correctly. It sort of worked.... I got horses, and riders sat on them (well, no they didn't - they hovered over them).

    Even with resetting the horse 'origin' coordinates to stop the hovering it still was not right. What should have been mighty, armoured warhorses ended up as donkeys wrapped in tinfoil. The problem is that mounts don't have a 'scale' entry in the unit_prod file, and will just come out relative to their BIF proportions - ie at four-fifths of the desired size.

    In the long run it might be possible to get it to work by also re-BIFing all the potential riders, but it soon becomes a major project, and I'm not 100% sure it would work out even then, as there are too many factors working in opposite directions. So for now we'll have to be content with one mount per BIF.

    On the plus side, combining the euthitonon and oxivolos BIFs has worked
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  27. #57
    Member Member dimitrios the samian's Avatar
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    Default Re: I sucked it, and spat it out again...

    howdy macsen .....
    Im not exactly sure what you mean & I want to help .
    I figure your trying to match Duke Johns mounted Greeks onto vanilla MTW horses ? .... but you lose me when you mention rescaling & rectangles .
    Let me know ....
    I have some ideas & they seem to work (640x640) no rescaling or rectangle dramas required & all the better if a 768x768 is reality .
    SO ... We have options
    cheers

  28. #58
    Second-hand chariot salesman Senior Member macsen rufus's Avatar
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    Default Re: I sucked it, and spat it out again...

    Hi DtS,

    That's not quite it - those riders do sit on vanilla horses fine, as per the Armenian Cataphracts and Prodromoi already posted, using the regular 256x256/512x512 horse BIFs. What I was trying to do was get two horses onto one BIF by using a larger BIF for the horses.

    This inevitably reduces the size of each horse figure when it is rendered in game, and the rectangles MUST be defined relative to a 256x256 plate, otherwise they won't line up with the horses.

    The only way you can avoid resetting the rectangles with an oversize BIF is by also making the units larger (ie if you simply blow up the entire plate instead of adding extra blank canvas - in which case you don't create any extra space in the BIF and therefore there's no point doing it).

    Go back to post #40 above, that goes into more detail
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  29. #59
    Member Member dimitrios the samian's Avatar
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    Default Re: I sucked it, and spat it out again...

    ahh yess ..
    I think I understand now .
    Still fantastic that we have the 640x640's
    anyway , back to Psp , finishing up the Hoppies .

  30. #60
    Second-hand chariot salesman Senior Member macsen rufus's Avatar
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    Default Ultimate Paint

    Well, I just made a discovery that should have occurred to me much sooner...

    There is a FREEWARE version of Ultimate Paint 2.88 available from the developer's website

    Find it here: http://www.ultimatepaint.com/download.php

    I've downloaded it and will try it out once I've 'used up' my thirty uses of the v2.82 trial version
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