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Thread: Ancient TW: GRAPHICS discussion

  1. #61
    Member Member Stazi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ultimate Paint

    There is a program that can make miracles with MTW animations, color tables, etc.. http://www.cosmigo.com/promotion/index.php
    It also works with our ancient LBM format directly. Freeware version exists but has limited functionality. Anyway, it's worth to check.
    "Do not fight for glory. Do not fight for love of your lord. Do not fight for hatred, honor or faith. Fight only for victory and you will succeed." - Uji sensei.

  2. #62
    Second-hand chariot salesman Senior Member macsen rufus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ultimate Paint

    Hi Stazi,

    Thanks for dropping by - I've made plenty of use of some of your discoveries, which have really helped this mod (the oversized animation BIFs and the multiple 'forest clearing' buldings have been fantastic developments... )

    That sounds like a tool I could use, and you can never have too many tools - I'll download it when I'm finished here.

    If it allows for fiddling with colour tables for LBMs that could be the holy grail... I've finally found a way to make unit icons with working faction colours, but it needs a few different graphics programmes, each doing a bit of the job (including the pre-test checks to ensure it's all done what you think it has...)

    Anyway, here's the result:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    The two pezhetairoi icons on the left have successfully picked up the blue of the Antigonids faction colour, whereas the bright pink hypaspists further across were an earlier experiment that didn't work... but they will be the next to convert.

    Luckily there's not a lot of unit icons I want to put faction colours into, but now I have a method, I might rethink that

    So far the only app I have which will save the LBMs with a defined colour table is Mithel, and that colour table has to be created in Mithel - it took a tedious couple of hours to do, index-by-index. Paint Shop Pro is the only app I have which can read what format of LBM it is opening (must be PBM rather than ILBM) and also accurately display the colour table loaded from the image - so that is needed to check the icon is properly formatted. The one problem with UP is that it will make up its own colour table when saving LBMs, regardless of the colour table you use in the workspace, even if you auto-load the colourtable with your BMP file Even PurpGrab's LBM output isn't properly indexed!

    So, now I can make my original image in Photoshop as usual, convert it to indexed mode using a pre-prepared PS colourtable which has a useful range of colours in it (it only needs to contain the right colours, indexes don't matter at this stage as Mithel ignores the indexing in the file it opens).

    Then it can be saved to BMP and opened in Mithel. Next, load the pre-prepared Mithel colourtable that contains the exact same range of colours, but properly indexed for MTW. Check that the colours in the image are in the Mithel colour table (yes, of course they are, but check anyway...) then save to LBM format.

    Next check the LBM looks okay by opening it in PSP (making sure to check the 'details' in the load dialogue box first for PBM sub-format, Run Time Compression and 8 bits per pixel), where it should look all greeny and/or pinky depending on the faction colours you're using. Use the 'colors/edit palette' menu item ('Palette order' is default setting there anyway) to check the indexing is ok (it will be, but check anyway...). Once that all checks out it should be safe to stick it into the 'battle/unit icons' directory then try it out in battle - all being well, it will work, if not expect a CTD.
    Last edited by macsen rufus; 09-20-2016 at 11:59.
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  3. #63
    Member Member dimitrios the samian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ultimate Paint

    wow , really nice looking Unit-Icon mac .
    Good too see you around again Stazi .

  4. #64
    Member Member Stazi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ultimate Paint

    Quote Originally Posted by macsen rufus View Post
    Thanks for dropping by - I've made plenty of use of some of your discoveries, which have really helped this mod (the oversized animation BIFs and the multiple 'forest clearing' buldings have been fantastic developments... )
    I'm glad you find it useful. :)

    Quote Originally Posted by macsen rufus View Post
    The one problem with UP is that it will make up its own colour table when saving LBMs, regardless of the colour table you use in the workspace, even if you auto-load the colourtable with your BMP file Even PurpGrab's LBM output isn't properly indexed!
    I work on indexed BMPs (saving as LBM is the last step). It's easier because most of the apps recognize this format. I use mainly Photoshop but any program that can keep color table intact will do. Ultimate Paint is ok too. You just have to setup it correctly. First, Options > Preferences > Files and check "Auto Load Palette".
    Click image for larger version. 

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    This way UP won't create its own color palette but load the existing one from the BMP.

    Then, when you save a file it should look like that:
    Click image for larger version. 

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    It'll save the file with palette you're working on. Most of the time it's enough. If image is still messed up the only way to get correct color table is Seqgrab. Don't use Purpgrab. Images it makes are always messed up.

    This is an example of ProMotion color table manipulation window:
    Click image for larger version. 

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    You can switch, copy and move not only single color in palette but any range of colors. It can also remap colors after you moved them. IMO it's as you said - a holy grail for MTW modders. It saves huge amount of time.
    "Do not fight for glory. Do not fight for love of your lord. Do not fight for hatred, honor or faith. Fight only for victory and you will succeed." - Uji sensei.

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  5. #65
    Second-hand chariot salesman Senior Member macsen rufus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ultimate Paint

    Thanks for that, Stazi - I don't think my version of UP has the 'Use Fast Palette' option in the Save dialogue, but I'll have to check it again now as it's possible I just haven't tried it - that's evidently the step that's missing for me, because I have auto-loaded BMP palettes without the saved LBM working afterwards. I'm currently using 2.82, but have got 2.88 waiting in the wings - maybe that will do it.

    Pro-Motion looks excellent, and I'm itching to give it a try when I have another full free day to play with it.

    I've got a few icons that could do with converting to faction-colour images, but that will mean going back to my original artwork and starting the process from scratch... again, another full free day will be required.
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  6. #66
    Member Member Leith's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ultimate Paint

    Hi guys! I'm keeping an eye on things though I've been busy working and modding! Anyway, hello and welcome back Stazi! I followed your instructions to the letter regarding the LBM icons and the faction colours work except that green becomes pink and pink becomes green. I have no idea why pink and green trade places even though I have tried several things but the results are the same.

  7. #67
    Member Member Stazi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ultimate Paint

    Quote Originally Posted by Leith View Post
    Hi guys! I'm keeping an eye on things though I've been busy working and modding! Anyway, hello and welcome back Stazi! I followed your instructions to the letter regarding the LBM icons and the faction colours work except that green becomes pink and pink becomes green. I have no idea why pink and green trade places even though I have tried several things but the results are the same.
    Which instructions do you mean? Could you post any screenshots what troubles you?
    "Do not fight for glory. Do not fight for love of your lord. Do not fight for hatred, honor or faith. Fight only for victory and you will succeed." - Uji sensei.

  8. #68
    Member Member Leith's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ultimate Paint

    Your post #64. I did everything you mentioned using ultimate paint but in battle the main faction colour (Green) in the LBM is replaced by the secondary one ( pink ). What could have possibly gone wrong ?

  9. #69
    Member Member dimitrios the samian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ultimate Paint

    : UPDATE :

    Ptolemaic Hoplites are finished , apart from the obvious they have been cleaned up considerable , no more blinking lights bulbs on their helmets & they have belts & a sharper ceaner almost linothorax tunic now , as well as looking better overall .

    check yr email mac

    cheers

  10. #70
    Member Member Stazi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ultimate Paint

    Quote Originally Posted by Leith View Post
    Your post #64. I did everything you mentioned using ultimate paint but in battle the main faction colour (Green) in the LBM is replaced by the secondary one ( pink ). What could have possibly gone wrong ?
    Upload the original file you tired to convert and the I'll check it. Colors don't mean much for the MTW engine. It's all about their indexes in the color table. If color table wasn't corrupted during conversion the only way is to repaint your image switching those colors manually. You can also change colors definitions in the txt file but it'll affect all units so it's not really a solution.

    BTW Maybe we should move to your thread because we are a little off-topic here?
    "Do not fight for glory. Do not fight for love of your lord. Do not fight for hatred, honor or faith. Fight only for victory and you will succeed." - Uji sensei.

  11. #71
    Member Member Leith's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ultimate Paint

    Great news, dimitrios! I look forward to checking them out. Stazi, we might continue our LBM discussion later when my mod is closer to being released. Thank you for the valuable info though.

  12. #72
    Second-hand chariot salesman Senior Member macsen rufus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ultimate Paint

    Evening all,

    Good to see you back, Leith.

    @ DtS - thanks for that, will get to my email shortly

    Stazi, I've tried out Pro Motion, and it is the dog's proverbials. However, it has so many functions, that just using it to make LBM icons is a bit like using a CNC laser cutter to trim my toenails I love the way it can remap the colour table with a single click. I don't think I need UP and PSP any more...

    Also, Leith, remember that in original MTW even, the faction colours are reversed between the review panel icons and the battle icons - I don't know if this is a bug or a feature, but you can easily check it out with a unit like the desert archers - in the review panel their tunics are secondary colour, in battle icons they are primary colour. It seems the BIF and LBM faction colours were set up opposite ways round.
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  13. #73
    Member Member dimitrios the samian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ultimate Paint

    Quote Originally Posted by macsen rufus View Post
    ...... is a bit like using a CNC laser cutter to trim my toenails I love the way it can remap the colour table with a single click. I don't think I need UP and PSP any more....
    you must have soft nails mac !

    Seriously .. I hope it can blend two different Bif Palettes into one when were making new 640x640's
    ... eg the Ptolemaic Hoplites & the Negro Nubian Infantry in one BifPlate .

  14. #74
    Member Member Stazi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ultimate Paint

    Quote Originally Posted by dimitrios the samian View Post
    Seriously .. I hope it can blend two different Bif Palettes into one when were making new 640x640's
    ... eg the Ptolemaic Hoplites & the Negro Nubian Infantry in one BifPlate .
    You can easily copy/paste color tables between images but you still can't exceed 256 colors. I usually combine such images in photoshop using standard RGB mode and then switch to indexed color mode using "Local (Selective)" palette. The problem arises if the image already has faction colors (green/pink) because you have to move them to the first 32 indexes manually.
    "Do not fight for glory. Do not fight for love of your lord. Do not fight for hatred, honor or faith. Fight only for victory and you will succeed." - Uji sensei.

  15. #75
    Member Member Leith's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ultimate Paint

    That should explain it then, Mac! Thank you so much for providing the solution. I recoloured the LBM icons accordingly and they look as intended.

  16. #76
    Second-hand chariot salesman Senior Member macsen rufus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ultimate Paint

    The African hoplites look good

    I haven't had them on the battlefield yet, but running the timer in BIF reader gives a good idea.

    You seem to have cured them of the disfiguring skin diseases that afflicted my rough-n-ready version


    As Stazi says, it's best to work with the images in RGB, though I go a slightly different route for indexing. I have saved a good, wide-ranging Photoshop palette with the faction colours in place and pretty much every colour likely to crop up, then I index via the Index>>Custom>>Load Palette route. All the colours will snap to the nearest available in the palette, you just have to be careful with that background green (#008000) and its near neighbours which are faction colour items (#007400 and #008400, iirc). I have a similar one for the 'LBM' palette where all the colours are identical to the BIF palette apart from the first and last (plus an identical palette in Pro Mo format, and that allows for the indexes to be remapped without moving them manually, if needed). It makes it easier for making icons.

    (Actually, I suppose I could re-jig the 'LBM icon' palette so the faction colours are reversed, then any icons using them should come out looking the same on the review panel icons and the battle icons.... might try that someday.... would be easier than recolouring them individually)

    I'll be sticking with PS for actual working - Pro Mo can probably do the job, but I'm a few years more experienced with PS and can get it to do what I want without alarming results in a reasonable time.
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    Second-hand chariot salesman Senior Member macsen rufus's Avatar
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    Default African Hoplites

    Drumroll, please, as I introduce DtS's African hoplites.

    I've got them up and running in campaign now, and they are great. I've made the two unit icons from a battle screenshot:

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    The unit to their left are thureophoroi.


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    This review panel gives an idea of the variety of spear/pike units available to the Ptolemies. In order, they are: Nubian spearmen, pezhetairoi, enomotia ekdromon, hypaspists, aethiopioi epilektoi, machimoi spearmen, pantodapoi and thureophoroi.
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  18. #78
    Member Member Leith's Avatar
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    Default Re: African Hoplites

    Nice work, although a closer screenshot of DtS's African hoplites would have been nicer. The unit icons look great. What is also interesting is the variety of units available to the Ptolemic general.

  19. #79
    Member Member dimitrios the samian's Avatar
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    Default Re: African Hoplites

    : UPDATE :

    Hello Guys , I haven't been posting much , but my creative half has been active .
    All is good in my part of the world & I hope all you guys are well also .
    I have been continuing onwards to getting the Hellenics finished ..... but ! I have been sneaking in some time working on the new Slinger & I can say they are coming along very nicely ! I think they actually look better than the RTW ones .
    I'm looking forward to getting this Hellenic package done before beginning on the Biblicals .
    cheers for now

  20. #80
    Second-hand chariot salesman Senior Member macsen rufus's Avatar
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    Default Re: African Hoplites

    I'm glad to say with ProMotion now firmly ensconced in my toolbox I'm going through some of the less appealing unit icons and doing some new ones, and I've also been sourcing some new info pics, too. I think I have all the big stuff done, and I'm tidying up the scruffy corners now.

    Looking forward to getting the new BIFs integrated into the mix
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  21. #81
    Member Member dimitrios the samian's Avatar
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    Default Re: African Hoplites

    : UPDATE :

    I'm a few days early in my bi-monthly update , but I couldn't wait any longer !
    I have completed all the most important aspects of my new Slingers & Staff Slingers .
    All 4 angles are complete with their 12 frames all fluid & in aspect !!!
    It was looking bleak a few weeks ago , but I soldiered thru .
    What I have found is I have a side project on the go & reward myself with little patches of creation , but always going back to work the majority of my time on my main project .
    I still need to skin up these guys & i'll release them along with the Hellenic Archer/Peltast .
    I should have them done before the end of this month .....
    cheers

  22. #82
    Member Member dimitrios the samian's Avatar
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    Default Re: African Hoplites

    Quote Originally Posted by macsen rufus View Post
    ...... the variety of spear/pike units available to the Ptolemies..... In order, they are: Nubian spearmen, pezhetairoi, enomotia ekdromon, hypaspists, aethiopioi epilektoi, machimoi spearmen, pantodapoi and thureophoroi.
    wow ! I'm Greek & I will have too google all the different units .
    If you get time Mac , do a new Faction Preview for the Ptolemies


  23. #83
    Member Member dimitrios the samian's Avatar
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    Default Re: African Hoplites

    : UPDATE :

    Hellenic Bif ( Akondistes & Archers ) almost done ......
    Keep an eye on yr mailbox mac , clould be over the weekend or at the latest early next week .
    They look much much better than my Beta Version that appeared on EE 0.9 & if the original HTW Artist could see them I'm sure he would be drooling also .


    : SNEAK PREVIEW :

    Click image for larger version. 

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    With all this work I've done on these guys , my mind kept drifting of to the Thracians & how we need a genuine Peltast .
    I doodled up these rather quickly ....
    Just some heavy erasing back into the transparent green , then cutting & pasting .
    Maybe some time in 2017 ! ....... if my enthusiasm doesn't wane .
    cheers
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by dimitrios the samian; 10-27-2016 at 01:48.

  24. #84
    Member Member dimitrios the samian's Avatar
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    Default Re: African Hoplites

    [I]: UPDATE :

    Peltasts done !
    I have had very little time these past few months but I still managed to finish of this basic bif the Peltasts .
    What needs doing now is just drawing in the quiver & sword holder on his waist .
    It will take quite a few hours as there are 22x12 to do ...264 off in total .
    I should have them ready I hope by Xmas or early New Year & if the weather gets very hot perhaps sooner
    ( as more spare time is available during A/C times )
    cheers [/I]



    pssss ... mac , sorry I told you to keep an eye on yr mailbox , my timing was way out
    Last edited by dimitrios the samian; 11-22-2016 at 04:55.

  25. #85
    Second-hand chariot salesman Senior Member macsen rufus's Avatar
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    Default Re: African Hoplites

    We're hitting the heating season here, now ... again more spare time (in between shifts at work...)

    Re quivers etc - can you keep two copies of these - one with quivers and one without - because some units from this BIF are not missile units All being well I'll be able to combine them into a single oversize BIF later.
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  26. #86
    Member Member dimitrios the samian's Avatar
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    Default

    Re quivers etc - can you keep two copies of....................... already have
    All being well I'll be able to combine them into a single oversize BIF later.......... all advanced on that aspect too


    See .....
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    Last edited by dimitrios the samian; 12-05-2016 at 07:15.

  27. #87

    Default Re: Ancient TW: GRAPHICS discussion

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    I didn't find a free roman helmet so i edited mine and it looks generic but that might be a good thing because you can use the figure for other factions too? Let me know if you don't like it, also your opinion about the feather, sandals, mail etc.

    Which shoulder guard color do you prefer, green or iron?

    Edit: About the throwing, the vanilla figures(Peasant, ChHlm) use their sword(slashing) animation, do you want something different, like upper hand throw?

    For how many actions do you have space? Does the bow requite walking/running with it?
    Last edited by YanBG; 12-08-2016 at 15:13.

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  28. #88
    Second-hand chariot salesman Senior Member macsen rufus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ancient TW: GRAPHICS discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by YanBG View Post
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    I didn't find a free roman helmet so i edited mine and it looks generic but that might be a good thing because you can use the figure for other factions too? Let me know if you don't like it, also your opinion about the feather, sandals, mail etc.

    Which shoulder guard color do you prefer, green or iron?

    Edit: About the throwing, the vanilla figures(Peasant, ChHlm) use their sword(slashing) animation, do you want something different, like upper hand throw?

    For how many actions do you have space? Does the bow requite walking/running with it?
    Wow YanBG, that was fast And it looks just the job - feather, mail and sandals are good as they are. The shoulder guards should remain as mail, imho, as that would be closest to the original armour.

    If we use an oversize BIF plate we have more than enough space, so if you could include walk and run animations with the bow, too, that would be icing on the cake. For the javelin/pilum throw I'm happy to go with whatever you think looks best, now I know how to place items with BIFreader and don't have to rely on pre-exisitng co-ordinates

    That's excellent work, thanks so much
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  29. #89
    Second-hand chariot salesman Senior Member macsen rufus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ancient TW: GRAPHICS discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by YanBG View Post
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    I didn't find a free roman helmet so i edited mine and it looks generic but that might be a good thing because you can use the figure for other factions too? Let me know if you don't like it, also your opinion about the feather, sandals, mail etc.

    Which shoulder guard color do you prefer, green or iron?

    Edit: About the throwing, the vanilla figures(Peasant, ChHlm) use their sword(slashing) animation, do you want something different, like upper hand throw?

    For how many actions do you have space? Does the bow requite walking/running with it?
    Wow YanBG, that was fast And it looks just the job - feather, mail and sandals are good as they are. The shoulder guards should remain as mail, imho, as that would be closest to the original armour.

    If we use an oversize BIF plate we have more than enough space, so if you could include walk and run animations with the bow, too, that would be icing on the cake. For the javelin/pilum throw I'm happy to go with whatever you think looks best, now I know how to place items with BIFreader and don't have to rely on pre-exisitng co-ordinates

    That's excellent work, thanks so much
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  30. #90
    Member Member dimitrios the samian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ancient TW: GRAPHICS discussion

    Awesome work Yan ....... so quick , well proportioned & cleanly drawn .
    Im with Mac , shoulders as mail , but I would darken the sandals to black or very dark brown
    I look forward to them , in the Roman Wars Mod .
    cheers
    Last edited by dimitrios the samian; 12-09-2016 at 13:41.

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