Ancient TW: GRAPHICS discussion

[dimitrios the samian]

[I]: UPDATE :

Hellenic Bif : 90%
Ptolemaic African Hoplites : 90%

Guys , made very little progress on these two over the past 3 wks .
I suppose I could have had them finished , but my time away from these two bifs has been spent on advancing my skills & it has yielded huge technique improvements & new methods working PSP & BIfReader .
So all up it was valuable time/spent wisely ........ also got started on my BetaTesting

The Hellenics , especially the 4 standing figs along with the Archers legs no longer have flashing bits & rolling sandals & sparkling hair , gone also is the snaking on their belts & collars ...... yep , they were a mess before

I still need to put faces on the remaining figs that run/walk/fight( as I messed about too much before ) .
I'll do it in two or 3 concentrated sessions , side by side on PSP using an original & my bif , utilising the cut & paste or magic wand method , the results will make them look very nice (at least to me) .

I repacked the Hoplite back into a Bif again today , I spent a few hours 2 wks ago laying the dark base coat on their skin , now in motion frame by frame , i'll finish of their skin ( highlights) & cutting in edges & also add a few touches !

I'll give an estimate mac & say this time next week they will be shipped over to you , by email
[/I]

[Leith]

Don't worry dimitrios! It used to take me 7-10 days to finish a bif when I first started then things got easier as I began to know what to look for while editing/creating a model. I'm sure the final product is worth it!

[macsen rufus]

I was intrigued by another of Stazi's discoveries:

For the last few days I've been testing usability of 1024x1024 textures for units. The goal is to avoid the hardcoded limit of units' folders and place more units in one texture. It works flawlessly but they are some exceptions.

As we know, grid is always 256x256. When I put an original 512x512 unit texture into a new 1024x1024 (I was aiming for 4 units in one texture) I have to reduce the frames' rectangles by half. It makes a unit appear in game half of its original size. To counter this I tried to use SCALE parameter in unit_prod file. The problem is the max value of it is 225. Default value for cavalry units is 138. It means than even if we use the max 225 value a unit is still about 40% too small.............

More here

I was so intrigued,in fact, I just had to try it out

I noticed a couple of very similar plates whilst skimming through my archive of BMPs (I keep a directory full of them to quickly identify BIFs without having to open them up each time). One of the BIFs was only used for a single unit, the gastraphetes, whilst the other carries quite a lot, include Punic Archers, Yficratian Hoplites, Late Hoplites etc etc. The gastraphetes had the same attack, charge and die animations, but the shoot, walk and run were different - so a total of 12 'rectangles' to copy over.

I have succeeded in creating a combined plate of 640x640px, which includes all the actions from both of the original 512x512 BIFs, plus the weapons, plus a few extra shields (which will be needed for more Hellenistic units...) It was a long-winded and finicky job, but with care and planning it was mostly rote repetition to carry eveything across and place it consistently into all twelve frames of the new BIF.

This gives some idea of what's been done:



I did the usual, and made a 50% sized copy for lo-res use, but it turns out the engine still renders it down to a 256x256 for picking the animation rectangles. I thought it would be a simple job setting the actionpage coordinates, as I expected most of them to match the originals. In the end I had to scale everything by 80% (256/320) to get it to pick up the right bits. It worked straight away in battle (ie didn't CTD), but was selecting an odd mix of images until I had scaled the actionpage

Of course everything came out smaller than usual, but that was quickly fixed in the unit_prod by adjusting the 'SCALE' column x1.25 (now you should see why I chose 640px as the new size....)

The real pain in the rear is that all the shield and weapon co-ordinates need to be reset, and that is taking longer than all the rest combined. There's no simple way to scale this, so it's a matter of going through all the actions in the items directory and changing them one by one. I'm most of the way through the hoplite shields and one set of coordinates will do for all the units, being as they all hold their shields in the same way.

One extra benefit is that I've now worked out how BIFreader allows you to try out shield positions - it's still long-winded, but a lot better than guessing and then trying out in battle.

And before anyone starts eyeing the gastraphetes' old folder, I've already bagsied it

[dimitrios the samian]

Awesome news Macsen .... this is huge & Inspiring .
I too had read Stazi's threads & you may have noticed ?.
Imagine the difference/richer the Mods would have been a decade ago if this was implemented
Wow ! Im just reminiscing back to the old "Bronze Age" mod days , what could have been hmmmm
Had I had progressed on from just that one simple Brothel Icon

Anyway my queries .

I have succeeded in creating a combined plate of 640x640px >>>
Of course everything came out smaller than usual, but that was quickly fixed in the unit_prod by adjusting the 'SCALE' column x1.25 (now you should see why I chose 640px as the new size....) >>>

...... 640x640 brilliant
but !! .... Is it the next size down from the difficult 1024x1024 ? .... confirm this mac its crucial .


I noticed a couple of very similar plates whilst skimming through my archive of BMPs .....

Me too when my graphics journey began & similiarity is very very good !
Lets use it to our advantage
eg all Hoplites Plates & even the Generic Hellenic ( & Barbarian Slinger less 4 rectangles ).

but ....>> These 2 Bifs need some "pre-adjustments" before you/we finalise putting the co-ordinates in place.

[ I will elaborate on these adjustments a bit later today , its a simple procedure & we should do it first .
Before we invest more precious time & effort on this aspect ]

(As briefly the Gen-Hellenic Bif will soon spawn > the Biblical Archers , better Indians , new Egyptians & Thracians )
& with this discovery , I will incorporate a brand spanking new Slinger into all of the above ]


The real pain in the rear is that all the shield and weapon co-ordinates need to be reset .

....... true it is , so don't set any co-ords in concrete yet mac ..
First we make these simple adjustments to the 2 bif plates ...
So its done once from the start & those co-ords become the blue-print for the rest of them to follow .

I'll prep some pics to post , then elaboarate further .



ps ..... the remaining Bronze Age Bifs from the Hellenic Team all come into these equation also

[macsen rufus]

Is it the next size down from the difficult 1024x1024 ? .... confirm this mac its crucial .

No, it's about optimum. 1024px is not so much 'difficult' as too large, because the engine still renders the lo-res at 256px, ie the units will be reduced in size (ie height) by 50%. As Stazi noted, you can only scale up so far, and using a 1024 plate puts it beyond that range, so it wasn't even on the starting blocks.

You need to scale different things in opposing directions - ie selection rectangles need to be reduced back to fit into 256x256, whilst the unit scale needs to be increased on units in expanded plates. At 640 the maths (and therefore the mechanics) works out quite sweetly: what needs reducing goes to 4/5 (80%), and what needs increasing goes to 5/4 (125%).

I did consider going to 768px, as that would be 4/3 and 3/4, but I find that scaling images by factors of three gets messy - especially downwards, and it also gets too close to the scaling limit for restoring the size of units. Plus the larger the hi-res plate, the lower the resolution in the lo-res plate.

If you look closely at the image I posted, it will also become obvious that all the bodies fit within the regular plate size. This particular model is unique in the whole range in that it is the only one that would need to have 12 actions carried over. There is more than enough room for simply adding slinging actions. But for practicalities, it means that for things like the biblicals you can use a whole 512x512 plate for just the men, forgetting about shields and weapons: I can contruct that side of things later.

As I said, it was a deliberate choice of size, and this is the reason for it - I did think it through before starting .

There's no point in doing this with the remaining hoplite plates, simply because they don't have any other actions to include - and it's way too much work to do for no benefit!

There are other things that can be combined, but now's not the time, as it relates more to the overall project than the current scenario.

[dimitrios the samian]

No, it's about optimum ..................

Thanks Mac , a simple no would been enough
but I do appreciate the extra distance you went it explaining it , I just don't want to rob you of time u may spend doing coding .
So its confirmed now &
I can begin .............

First up one weaknesses (for lack of a better word) in the original HTW Bif Plates .
Sizing > Check the first pic ...



Figures 5 6 7 & 15 are way oversized .
Figures 9 10 11 12 & 1 Archer are way undersized .

We can easily remedy this .
The advantages far outway the work ..... it will balance out the top line especially thus giving the 4
Stading figures a bit more room ......

Eventually Toxotes can have Bows showing , Singers with slings & even the Peltasts with their 4 Javs !! all on the one set of 4 standing figures .

Eventually with this bigger BifPlate , if we choose to they can be made to walk & run holding there weapons .

I have made a discovery also , but need to experiment a little before revealing it !!

Now some more good news , ... It is about the Rectangles / Co-Ordinates .
They are identical ! ... see the 2nd Pic .



Changing the co-ords for the rectangles on the top two lines is not so complex & they would cover all our HTW Plates ....( Easterns also)

SUMMING UP :

With the confirmation of the 640x640 a reality .
It is possible to finally do lots more & re-design the Bif plates for maximum usage .
I do think it best we get the figures all scaled properly & spaced out .
Then we have options so graphics can be added in stages ...... ( these little extras will take time , but I'm willing to chip away after the important ones are done ).
.



There's no point in doing this with the remaining hoplite plates, simply because they don't have any other actions to include - and it's way too much work to do for no benefit ..............

Not entirely true mac , there may come a time were we need a folder or 2 ( for different grades of hoplites )
So having the option to combine & save us Plates/Bifs , if need be is a plus & we can easily do when the time comes .

There are other things that can be combined, but now's not the time, as it relates more to the overall project than the current scenario .....

............ very true , you read my mind

[macsen rufus]

Some interesting ideas there, DtS, but some of them could open a can of worms ...

First up one weaknesses (for lack of a better word) in the original HTW Bif Plates .
Sizing > Check the first pic ...

I'd be very wary of resizing these - it will alter the rendering of the unit on screen, change its origin point and consequently the positioning of shields and weapons, all of which will have to be redone for every unit in every frame at every angle. The difference in size is pretty tiny compared to the variations you get on-screen anyway, with the poor way the engine handles its attempts at perspective. Even in a hoplite phalanx with identical figures you still see variations in size.

TBH I think the work will far outweigh the benefits, because it will cascade through so much other stuff that will need to be altered to suit.

EDIT to add: for a more obvious reason not to try this, just run the timer in BIF reader .... you'll see the running figures bob up and down within their rectangle, and the archer raises his bow right to the top of his window, too.

Likewise, the images don't need 'more room'. They have their rectangles, that's all they need. Putting space between them means re-doing all the actionpage files (and cuts out some a lot of the short-cuts for working on these).

Adding the new actions - like more images for archers carrying their bows - should work out well. (Hold fire on the peltasts for now, I have a cunning plan...)

Now some more good news , ... It is about the Rectangles / Co-Ordinates .
They are identical ! ... see the 2nd Pic .

That's been a great help in putting together many of my new units over the years.... and also a another reason why I don't think the individual actions should be re-sized.

Makes sense that the HTW team would have a system when producing the BIFs and it looks like they worked from the same basic model with various finishes. It also helps with weapons and shields...

there may come a time were we need a folder or 2 ( for different grades of hoplites )

There are already 7 different bodies for hoplites (not including the Africans) out of a total of 49 folders. I think that's enough resources for them