Climate Change Thread

[Pannonian]

sitting on the high horse is so un-norwegian, but I think I am on the right track. You can do small things, like choosing a power vendor which claim they are not importing dirty coal power and only supply power from the water-based powerplants.
We can't all be eco fundies - which builds their eco houses with solar-panels and ground heat pumps, growing peat on their roofs and a small generator in the stream that flows through their property. Small things will help locally - you get better air in the cities for the asthmatics.

We all know about the elephant in the glass house - the industrializing of 3rd world or former 3rd world nations. And the experts are having difficulties coming up with lasting solutions - solutions which are utopic? Herding populations into super cities which are completely self sufficient, so you can utilize the surrounding land for agriculture and CO2 absorbing plants will generate opposition. People we just don't like leaving our comfort.

Here some conspiracy for you:
What would need to be done if you wanted to save the world right now? If you were forced to find a solution to stop all pollution (globally) right now/yesterday, what would be the necessary steps?

The most direct and effective solution is to end humanity.

[Sigurd]

The most direct and effective solution is to end humanity.

What if you had to include the survival of humanity and at the same time making sure the future generation had a platform of sustainable development?

[Pannonian]

What if you had to include the survival of humanity and at the same time making sure the future generation had a platform of sustainable development?

Planned economy, whilst minimising footprint.

[edyzmedieval]

As a whole, particularly in the concerned industries, moving to renewables should be the main plan in the next 10-15 years.

Let's take for example cars, because they are the ones that technically count the most - with the exception of some countries, like Norway which offers significant incentives like Sigurd mentioned above, electric cars are expensive. Even the cheapest ones, like the planned Tesla Model 3, would make it rather expensive in countries that are not so developed. More investment and efficiency is needed, and that will come with time, but it needs to be sped up.

[Husar]

If you had to stop all pollution right now, the only solution would be for governments to take over corporations, cars and so on and stop using all of it. If you just want to decrease pollution, the government could just release laws that regulate pollution more and threaten to take over corporations if they don't stick to the limits.

I don't see the need for a planned economy though. Instead one could release CO2 shares that are valid for only one year. Calculate the amount of CO2 that we can relatively safely release and that will be the total amount of shares going around. Then all countries and corporations in the world can buy them to be allowed to release the amount of CO2 that is given on the shares they own. Private cars may have to be included in that. And of course it would have to be possible to stop people from using their share and then selling it. One way would be to have a card reader in every CO2-producing device and then you'd have a card(or several) that is loaded with CO2 shares, which has to be entered to use the device. The device would then reduce your CO2 shares during use according to its output specifications. This would create a market with a strict upper output limit provided the limit is enforced everywhere (obviously people would try to hack it, so controls are necessary). There'd be an incentive to reduce the personal output or the output of the corporation to save money for shares up to the point where the shares become almost worthless because noone needs them anymore.

Similar systems are in use in the EU I think, but they don't seem very effective and there does not seem to be any upper limit AFAIK. Neither does it include private use or cover the entire planet.

[Pannonian]

If you had to stop all pollution right now, the only solution would be for governments to take over corporations, cars and so on and stop using all of it. If you just want to decrease pollution, the government could just release laws that regulate pollution more and threaten to take over corporations if they don't stick to the limits.

I don't see the need for a planned economy though. Instead one could release CO2 shares that are valid for only one year. Calculate the amount of CO2 that we can relatively safely release and that will be the total amount of shares going around. Then all countries and corporations in the world can buy them to be allowed to release the amount of CO2 that is given on the shares they own. Private cars may have to be included in that. And of course it would have to be possible to stop people from using their share and then selling it. One way would be to have a card reader in every CO2-producing device and then you'd have a card(or several) that is loaded with CO2 shares, which has to be entered to use the device. The device would then reduce your CO2 shares during use according to its output specifications. This would create a market with a strict upper output limit provided the limit is enforced everywhere (obviously people would try to hack it, so controls are necessary). There'd be an incentive to reduce the personal output or the output of the corporation to save money for shares up to the point where the shares become almost worthless because noone needs them anymore.

Similar systems are in use in the EU I think, but they don't seem very effective and there does not seem to be any upper limit AFAIK. Neither does it include private use or cover the entire planet.

It will, in the end, go back to planning. If one is averse to planning, one can used government regulated capitalism that will ultimately amount to the same thing. Big tax breaks for pioneers to develop eco-friendly services. Then make these services available and attractive via tax breaks and thus cheaper prices. Then tax the hell out of those who don't switch to the new eco-friendly services.

[Husar]

It will, in the end, go back to planning. If one is averse to planning, one can used government regulated capitalism that will ultimately amount to the same thing. Big tax breaks for pioneers to develop eco-friendly services. Then make these services available and attractive via tax breaks and thus cheaper prices. Then tax the hell out of those who don't switch to the new eco-friendly services.

When you say planned economy, I think of the kind where the government decides to produce a million green shoes next year and so on, not the kind where someone plans what to do beyond instant self-richification. The first usually leads to even more waste of resources, the second should probably be applauded.

[Pannonian]

When you say planned economy, I think of the kind where the government decides to produce a million green shoes next year and so on, not the kind where someone plans what to do beyond instant self-richification. The first usually leads to even more waste of resources, the second should probably be applauded.

I think of planned economy as the government deciding what to do with its human resources, a la the two world wars (particularly the second one). In particular its management of agriculture, which was based on a study of what an individual needs for sustenance, regearing the land to farm, and its effectiveness to the extent that, uniquely among Europe's warring countries, there were zero deaths in Britain from starvation over the course of the war. Much of that was due to continuing imports thanks to the merchant navies of the UK and allies, but agriculture was also made punishingly efficient by planning. Before anyone points out rationing, that's another aspect of a planned economy as well, but it was also one made possible by the planned agricultural economy (which drastically cut back on meat production, turning the land over instead to producing plant crops, which produced consumable calories far more efficiently).

[Seamus Fermanagh]

The most direct and effective solution is to end humanity.

Current events suggest that much of humankind has already dispensed with humanity.