Climate Change Thread

[Gilrandir]

Considering we havent really had a ripe one I wouldnt know; even India's release was marked by an immediate bloodbath.

I'd say when the lower classes have become as accustomed to the status quo of a western society as the middle class, too many times we have taken a fully westernized middle class as a sign of sustainablility only for it to collapse as the newly emancipated working class/pesantry still have a bronze age mindset and let thier rights be stripped away without a fight.

Ergo: independence is never timely?

[Husar]

Ergo: independence is never timely?

Yes, notice how Russia had to re-colonize some southern regions when the independent country that tried to run them failed because it wasn't ready yet.

[spmetla]

It'd be hard to argue that any of the African countries given full independence in the 60s-80s were ready for independence. Lots of them only had handful of educated people capable of running departments previously run by colonial officals. Then there are the violent tribal dynamics and infighting that came out once there was real political power to struggle for.

Just look at the independence of the Belgian Congo and the 30 years of warfare there that spread into all of the neighboring countries and colonies. Places like Angola which were actually well off economically under the Portuguese turned into warzones. The tribal dynamics for all their ups and downs were upset by communist insurgents that were happy to kill off any 'feudal' lords or collaborators.
While I don't agree with apartheid or minority rule in South Africa or Rhodesia it's no wonder that Ian Smith or the Afrikaners were not willing to welcome majority rule after seeing the chaos and bloodletting to the North of them.

It would have helped if the newly independent countries had had some sort of transition period so they could have security forces in place, functioning government service and offer at least some stability instead of the free for all that ended up happening.

I honestly think that the short sighted and selfish washing of hands independence by the European powers of their colonies was a greater crime than establishing them in the first place.

Back to climate:
I do think the new progress in the "Great Green Wall" in the Sahel region is nice to see. Using tree based farming techniques with trees and crops that complement each other, allow for more undergrowth and grow more crops that don't just deplete the soil. Would be great if Africa could feed and employ its own citizens better through smarter agriculture practices.
http://www.greatgreenwall.org/great-green-wall/

[Pannonian]

It'd be hard to argue that any of the African countries given full independence in the 60s-80s were ready for independence. Lots of them only had handful of educated people capable of running departments previously run by colonial officals. Then there are the violent tribal dynamics and infighting that came out once there was real political power to struggle for.

Just look at the independence of the Belgian Congo and the 30 years of warfare there that spread into all of the neighboring countries and colonies. Places like Angola which were actually well off economically under the Portuguese turned into warzones. The tribal dynamics for all their ups and downs were upset by communist insurgents that were happy to kill off any 'feudal' lords or collaborators.
While I don't agree with apartheid or minority rule in South Africa or Rhodesia it's no wonder that Ian Smith or the Afrikaners were not willing to welcome majority rule after seeing the chaos and bloodletting to the North of them.

It would have helped if the newly independent countries had had some sort of transition period so they could have security forces in place, functioning government service and offer at least some stability instead of the free for all that ended up happening.

I honestly think that the short sighted and selfish washing of hands independence by the European powers of their colonies was a greater crime than establishing them in the first place.

The US actively undermined the colonial powers at the end of WW2. Keynes was upset at the terms set out for renewal of lend lease, declaring it was tantamount to giving up the empire. There are numerous accounts from American officials stating that they weren't going to let the British gain from the war like the last time round. India in particular had to be made independent ASAP, rather than when the British deemed it suitable.

[spmetla]

I'm well aware of the US assistance in the de-colonization until it realized too late it only resulted in Communist dictatorships leading to our support of other pro-Western dictatorships.

The US didn't want France to keep Indo-china or Britain to regain Hong Kong either.

American policy was naive in thinking in the absence of colonies that freedom, democracy and open markets would occur naturally.

It still doesn't excuse giving full independence without prepping the new country for it.

[Pannonian]

I'm well aware of the US assistance in the de-colonization until it realized too late it only resulted in Communist dictatorships leading to our support of other pro-Western dictatorships.

The US didn't want France to keep Indo-china or Britain to regain Hong Kong either.

American policy was naive in thinking in the absence of colonies that freedom, democracy and open markets would occur naturally.

It still doesn't excuse giving full independence without prepping the new country for it.

What else could we do? See Suez. After that, it was clear the only independent action we could get involved in was prevent Communism. Anything else and the Americans call in the debts.

[Montmorency]

What else could we do? See Suez. After that, it was clear the only independent action we could get involved in was prevent Communism. Anything else and the Americans call in the debts.

Interesting article on the relevance of the Suez Crisis case for the American Empire.

[Montmorency]

Wasn't it largely a refusal by Washington to pay to prop up disintegrating empires?

It's true that from a contemporary perspective an internationalist could call for the USA to offer transitional foreign aid, but as far as sustaining the colonial power structure it would have been even worse than warlords and Communists and right-wing tinpots, in a humanitarian as well as an economic way.