European Right Wing

[LittleGrizzly]

Given you highlighted one of my posts with red writing for references of Blair and Blairite accusing it of being some kind of parroting of momentum propaganda I can't help but feel a long look in the mirror is required.

Not only is your constant hammering of the Corbyn/Corbynite catchphrases (far more excessively than I did Blair/Blairite) straight out of the New Labour playbook but you can't seem to help yourself but link every issue, no matter what the topic. back to It despite it being mentioned to you about doing it excessively.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Given you highlighted one of my posts with red writing for references of Blair and Blairite accusing it of being some kind of parroting of momentum propaganda I can't help but feel a long look in the mirror is required.

Not only is your constant hammering of the Corbyn/Corbynite catchphrases (far more excessively than I did Blair/Blairite) straight out of the New Labour playbook but you can't seem to help yourself but link every issue, no matter what the topic. back to It despite it being mentioned to you about doing it excessively.

Corbyn is bad news for anyone who want an effective Opposition, which should be everyone.

He's also not what he appears to be - i.e. honest - he's just corrupt in a different direction.

Traintgate caught him lying through his teeth just to make a cheap point and his insistence on continuing to champion the absurd abandonment of Nuclear Weapons despite his party voting to renew them shows he doesn't believe in collective responsibility.

We are a Parliamentary Democracy, Collective Responsibility is the cornerstone of our political life.

Despite that Corbyn, the supposedly great democrat, refuses to either accept the decision of his political party or resign the leadership in protest. No, instead he will re-shape the party until is reflects his own beliefs. This is pretty much the reverse of how democracy is supposed to work, instead of the Labour party changing direction and electing Corbyn it elected Corbyn as a rejection of the party elite and now He will purge His Party.

McDonnell is a Trot - so he has no business being anywhere near political power.

[Brenus]

"Traintgate caught him lying through his teeth just to make a cheap point" Except of course he was not lying, but carry on. Don't let facts stop you.

"Despite that Corbyn, the supposedly great democrat, refuses to either accept the decision of his political party or resign the leadership in protest. No, instead he will re-shape the party until is reflects his own beliefs. This is pretty much the reverse of how democracy is supposed to work, instead of the Labour party changing direction and electing Corbyn it elected Corbyn as a rejection of the party elite and now He will purge His Party." YES. Voters are wrong. Only elites know better...
Ahh, the rejection of democracy to protect democracy is a great idea...

The progression of the extreme-right is due to this. Carry on not to listen in your high towers, in you bubbles, and the mobs will come, the ones left with only the crumbs of your cakes.
By the way, who reshaped (or tried) the Labour Party as they wanted it to vote? Who barred members to vote? Corbyn or the Labour Elites?
Didn't you understand the Arab Spring? The goodies are not always winning...
One reality you shouldn't escape from: Hillary Clinton paid the price of Obama's failure.
Corbyn is the price of Labour's failure to understand their natural electorate.
YOU are telling what Corbyn wants, not him. You might think he will do, but you have, as for traingate, no facts to back-up your opinion.
Do you really think that Nuclear Weapons should be the cornerstone of a campaign is part of the country where 4 generations are on benefit due to the lack of work? Really? When you hear this, the ones with no job and no future hear more jobs, more education, life perhaps...
In fact, you replicate media in presenting your opinion as facts. And then you start to believe in what you think as facts.

[LittleGrizzly]

So the, twice, overwhelmingly ahead of his rivals, elected leader of the Labour party should step down in the interests of democracy...

Not really a compelling argument to be honest with you.

[Kralizec]

"Traintgate caught him lying through his teeth just to make a cheap point" Except of course he was not lying, but carry on. Don't let facts stop you.

By Corbyn's own admission, there were unoccupied seats. His explanation is that only two adjacent seats were good enough because he wanted to sit next to his wife.

So yes, he was lying. He was saying the train was completely packed and therefore had to sit on the ground. I don't know if you use public transportation a lot, but people who travel alone generally like to occupy their own two-seat bench unless some stranger needs the seat. Corbyn's situation occurs whenever a typical bus or train car is about half full.

Maybe the point he was trying to make is a genuine, real concern. Doesn't change the fact that the video is staged - Corbyn himself wasn't faced with the problem he was trying to adress.

"Despite that Corbyn, the supposedly great democrat, refuses to either accept the decision of his political party or resign the leadership in protest. No, instead he will re-shape the party until is reflects his own beliefs. This is pretty much the reverse of how democracy is supposed to work, instead of the Labour party changing direction and electing Corbyn it elected Corbyn as a rejection of the party elite and now He will purge His Party." YES. Voters are wrong. Only elites know better...
Ahh, the rejection of democracy to protect democracy is a great idea....

Disingeneous. The term "voters" is usually understood to mean everybody who bothers to vote in a general election, unless explicitly stated otherwise. The numberof people who are actual members of a political party, let alone those who vote in internal elections, is tiny. At least when compared to the people who strongly sympathize with the party but aren't actual members. That said, the only true test is a general election, so we'll just have to wait and see who's right in the end.

Disclaimer: Corbyn and the British labour party don't affect me personally, but some parts of this story feel very familiar to me as a Dutchman and besides I'm personally interested in the politics of neighbouring countries, so that's why I weigh in.

[Pannonian]

Disingeneous. The term "voters" is usually understood to mean everybody who bothers to vote in a general election, unless explicitly stated otherwise. The numberof people who are actual members of a political party, let alone those who vote in internal elections, is tiny. At least when compared to the people who strongly sympathize with the party but aren't actual members. That said, the only true test is a general election, so we'll just have to wait and see who's right in the end.

What Brenus fails to acknowledge is that Corbyn has spent his entire adult life preaching to people who already believe in what he says. Nowadays he has a larger congregation, but he's still preaching to people who already believe in what he says. Labour members are, by their nature, believers in socialism in some form or other. All he has to do within the context of controlling the Labour party is to convince people using the language of socialism. Unfortunately for the people of Britain, this isn't the only electorate that exists. There exists a fair chunk of eligible voters who don't believe in socialism, for whom the language of socialism means nothing to them. These people are the British voters, and they far outnumber Labour members. As I pointed out earlier, in a recent by election the number of Labour members in the constituency doubled by several hundred, but the number of Labour voters dropped by several thousand, dropping them to third place in the constituency (where they'd previously been second). But this doesn't matter to Corbyn supporters, as by their own standards the rise in Labour members was a success, regardless of the far bigger drop in votes.

And this was the problem that our US posters stated of the Democrats, even posters who didn't vote Trump. The American Left saw the world in terms that had little resemblance to that of the wider electorate, and they refused to engage with the wider electorate. For the wider European Left, the plight of the American Left cannot be ignored, while the words and deeds of the British Left should be an object lesson in how not to do things.

[Brenus]

"By Corbyn's own admission, there were unoccupied seats."
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a7217471.html
"Accounts of the “traingate” incident differed but others passengers on the train later came forward to confirm that it was indeed very busy." Underlined by me. Unoccupied seats doesn't mean they are free (as the picture of him in the 1st class carriage).

"What Brenus fails to acknowledge is that Corbyn has spent his entire adult life preaching to people who already believe in what he says. Nowadays he has a larger congregation, but he's still preaching to people who already believe in what he says." Carry on. Live in your High Castle, in your bubble. BTW, using religious vocabulary to describe a political movement shows you intent and discredits your points even the valid ones. Why don't you simply recognised that Corbyn did win the internal election within the rules imposed by his opponents? Your answer, like in USA and in UK, is to blame the voters. They are brutes, savages, ill-educated, trotskyists, whatever qualifications you choose. Why not acknowledging the reality which is Corbyn won because Brown and other Miliband flailed in delivering jobs and winning elections.
The ones saying Corbyn can't win elections are the ones who lost the precedent ones. They are the potential winners who previously lost all.
"Unfortunately for the people of Britain, this isn't the only electorate that exists." So why to organise elections? Why not follow the polls which all of them failed on all recent elections/referendum? Why bother? What about convincing people, voters, that your program is the good one?

[LittleGrizzly]

You do wonder how all these potential rivals to Corbyn were going to sweep to victory when they can't even seem to attract that many votes amongst their own party, what chance the wider electorate?

It is one thing the disciples of New Labour refuse to actually acknowledge is none of their candidates would actually be having any more success right now, especially with all the backstabbing they have organised within the party but lets carry on with this fantasy that Corbyn is the only thing holding Labour back if it suits the New Labour manta.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

"Traintgate caught him lying through his teeth just to make a cheap point" Except of course he was not lying, but carry on. Don't let facts stop you.

CCTV footage clearly shows Corbyn walking past unoccupied and unreserved seats before sitting down on the floor. The train was busy, it was not "rammed" as he said because there were still free seats. Also, there's nothing to stop you sitting in a reserved seat until the person who reserved it boards - that's perfectly acceptable.

I've been on genuinely "rammed" trains in this country when passengers can't even board because there's literally no space. To hear Corbyn you would think trains should always be 20% empty, which is silly.

It's simple - he said there were no free seats - but he walked past free seats. He's either lying or he's not practiced in spotting free seats on a busy train (doesn't often travel by rail).

"Despite that Corbyn, the supposedly great democrat, refuses to either accept the decision of his political party or resign the leadership in protest. No, instead he will re-shape the party until is reflects his own beliefs. This is pretty much the reverse of how democracy is supposed to work, instead of the Labour party changing direction and electing Corbyn it elected Corbyn as a rejection of the party elite and now He will purge His Party." YES. Voters are wrong. Only elites know better...
Ahh, the rejection of democracy to protect democracy is a great idea...

You are miss-reading what I wrote. Corbyn was elected by the party, yes, and at the same conference where his re-election was confirmed the same party voted to support the Nuclear Deterrent. Not the "elite", not the "Parliamentary Party", but the whole party. Afterwards Corbyn was quick to get on the airwaves and say he would continue to argue for Nuclear disarmament.

That is a rejection of collective responsibility and a lot of non-elite Labour members are annoyed because Corbyn is rejecting the democratically decided party policy and trying to pull the party in a different direction. If he doesn't like then outcome of the vote he should resign in protest.

The progression of the extreme-right is due to this. Carry on not to listen in your high towers, in you bubbles, and the mobs will come, the ones left with only the crumbs of your cakes.
By the way, who reshaped (or tried) the Labour Party as they wanted it to vote? Who barred members to vote? Corbyn or the Labour Elites?
Didn't you understand the Arab Spring? The goodies are not always winning...
One reality you shouldn't escape from: Hillary Clinton paid the price of Obama's failure.
Corbyn is the price of Labour's failure to understand their natural electorate.
YOU are telling what Corbyn wants, not him. You might think he will do, but you have, as for traingate, no facts to back-up your opinion.
Do you really think that Nuclear Weapons should be the cornerstone of a campaign is part of the country where 4 generations are on benefit due to the lack of work? Really? When you hear this, the ones with no job and no future hear more jobs, more education, life perhaps...
In fact, you replicate media in presenting your opinion as facts. And then you start to believe in what you think as facts.

The working class have abandoned the Left en masse, they all voted "Right" for Brexit. It isn't just the political Right who have lost touch, the Left are as bad if not worse.

I'm not really sure what you're arguing about here, I'd rather say ranting about.

If Labour want to support unilateral disarmament they can, as a Party, but right now it's just Corbyn and his Momentum movement, the Party supports rearmament.

Anyway, there's plenty of evidence for Traingate and to say otherwise is intellectually dishonest, when we have CCTV with timestamps.

[Idaho]

CCTV footage clearly shows Corbyn walking past unoccupied and unreserved seats before sitting down on the floor. The train was busy, it was not "rammed" as he said because there were still free seats. Also, there's nothing to stop you sitting in a reserved seat until the person who reserved it boards - that's perfectly acceptable.

I've been on genuinely "rammed" trains in this country when passengers can't even board because there's literally no space. To hear Corbyn you would think trains should always be 20% empty, which is silly.

It's simple - he said there were no free seats - but he walked past free seats. He's either lying or he's not practiced in spotting free seats on a busy train (doesn't often travel by rail).



You are miss-reading what I wrote. Corbyn was elected by the party, yes, and at the same conference where his re-election was confirmed the same party voted to support the Nuclear Deterrent. Not the "elite", not the "Parliamentary Party", but the whole party. Afterwards Corbyn was quick to get on the airwaves and say he would continue to argue for Nuclear disarmament.

That is a rejection of collective responsibility and a lot of non-elite Labour members are annoyed because Corbyn is rejecting the democratically decided party policy and trying to pull the party in a different direction. If he doesn't like then outcome of the vote he should resign in protest.



The working class have abandoned the Left en masse, they all voted "Right" for Brexit. It isn't just the political Right who have lost touch, the Left are as bad if not worse.

I'm not really sure what you're arguing about here, I'd rather say ranting about.

If Labour want to support unilateral disarmament they can, as a Party, but right now it's just Corbyn and his Momentum movement, the Party supports rearmament.

Anyway, there's plenty of evidence for Traingate and to say otherwise is intellectually dishonest, when we have CCTV with timestamps.

Yeah but Cameron ****ed a pig.

[LittleGrizzly]

E.g. anyone who isn't a wholehearted Corbynite will be forever branded a Blairite, even though Jeremy Corbyn was a Labour MP alongside Tony Blair (part of the same intake in fact), while Owen Smith entered parliament after Blair had retired. Orwell saw it in his own time, and wrote about it in animal farm and 1984. The creation of a universal enemy , ill-defined bar the label and labelling opponents as supporters of said universal enemy
_______________________________________________

I have to question just how self aware you are after reading this post....

That describes your posts I have been reading here on the .org perfectly, the enemy being Corbyn, the "far left" and Momentum rather than Blair and Blairites though.

To the point where people have asked you to stop bringing your pet topic into different topics but you must keep fighting the good fight against the "enemy" right?

Also I'm sure it is obvious to someone as intelligent as yourself, but you must keep up the propaganda against the enemy I guess, you don't actually have to have served with Tony Blair to follow his political ideology...

Many people managed to vote for and support Tony Blair without once serving in the house of commons with him....

[Pannonian]

E.g. anyone who isn't a wholehearted Corbynite will be forever branded a Blairite, even though Jeremy Corbyn was a Labour MP alongside Tony Blair (part of the same intake in fact), while Owen Smith entered parliament after Blair had retired. Orwell saw it in his own time, and wrote about it in animal farm and 1984. The creation of a universal enemy , ill-defined bar the label and labelling opponents as supporters of said universal enemy
_______________________________________________

I have to question just how self aware you are after reading this post....

That describes your posts I have been reading here on the .org perfectly, the enemy being Corbyn, the "far left" and Momentum rather than Blair and Blairites though.

To the point where people have asked you to stop bringing your pet topic into different topics but you must keep fighting the good fight against the "enemy" right?

Also I'm sure it is obvious to someone as intelligent as yourself, but you must keep up the propaganda against the enemy I guess, you don't actually have to have served with Tony Blair to follow his political ideology...

Many people managed to vote for and support Tony Blair without once serving in the house of commons with him....

The best way of fighting the Right is to elect the Left into power. The problem with the Left, at least in the UK and US, is that those in control have no intention of listening to the people. That point was made, again and again, by disgusted US posters here in the US election thread. The point they made, again and again, is that the Left are so up their own fundament in their sense of righteousness that the idea of listening to people who might disagree with them is alien to them. See the point PFH makes above about Corbyn and Unilateralism, or the point he makes about Corbyn and Collective Responsibility. See the ex-Militants and their declaration that a Labour reduced to 30-40 MPs will be regarded as a success, if they are ideologically sound.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

What! A supposed labour supporter claiming that the economic elites are a phantom put about to allow tyranny! That this was the warning from George Orwell!

I cannot believe how you can be that wrong headed. That post is staggering in the strength and depth of its wrongness.

Who are these elites? Presumably you think they don't exist because none of them live on your street, or work in your office?

The warning from George Orwell was to beware the ill defined "elite", and it is something elements of the Left have been bandying about (the Right a little also). It's a dog whistle, just like "foreigner"

Yeah but Cameron ****ed a pig.

See, now you're just confusing fiction and reality.

[Pannonian]

The warning from George Orwell was to beware the ill defined "elite", and it is something elements of the Left have been bandying about (the Right a little also). It's a dog whistle, just like "foreigner"

The warning was to keep an open eye on what is happening, as opposed to identifying everything as labelled. He was already highly sceptical about pro-USSR (and anti-Anglo-America) Communists, but things became even clearer during his time in Spain, when the Leftist group he was with was labelled as The Enemy, simply because they didn't fit in with the pro-Soviet group. He eventually favoured a bottom-up socialism resembling something like the Liberal Reformism of Lloyd George and Churchill, based on the more generous qualities of traditional English culture allied with a willingness to work for better (at all levels).