Representative Democracy [Concluded]

[Renata]

OK. all caught up.
best strat is to divide into as many small districts as possible. Vote for the towniest players to power. Play game like regular mafia. Try and force the rep to vote with majority or atleast give proper explanation. somehow.

Not sure what to make of Visor's claim. perhaps there is no need to worry about it for now.

Town: Cass, Winston Hughes, Visor, Jabbz, dicetosser1. maybe Zack and Dp too.

Willing to lynch within: Renata, GeneralHankerchief, Montmorency, Sooh, El Barto

The only one of these I've seen reasons for is me, and Im not so impressed with that one. Reasons for your other reads please, particularly GH, Monty, Jabbz, Zack.

[Renata]

Sure, you can catch a wolf day one, statistically its possible, and it might happen often enough that you get a sense of confirmation bias surrounding it. That doesn't mean its likely, or even probable that the reason you actually got them was because they did something that led to their righteous demise. More likely by far is the fact that you got lucky, and your brain doesn't pay attention to the number of cases where you were SURE you had a scum, and they turned out to be town. It's not fatalism or defeatism, its just reality. I prefer to accept that, and focus on day 1 content with the intent to use it in future days as an established baseline for trends and a backdrop to check future arguments against. It's effective.

Fine. I don't much care about that right now, though, would rather have reads as opposed to an excuse for not having any. Let's see this focus on day one content.

[Zack]

Sure, you can catch a wolf day one, statistically its possible, and it might happen often enough that you get a sense of confirmation bias surrounding it. That doesn't mean its likely, or even probable that the reason you actually got them was because they did something that led to their righteous demise. More likely by far is the fact that you got lucky, and your brain doesn't pay attention to the number of cases where you were SURE you had a scum, and they turned out to be town. It's not fatalism or defeatism, its just reality. I prefer to accept that, and focus on day 1 content with the intent to use it in future days as an established baseline for trends and a backdrop to check future arguments against. It's effective.

isn't the best way to establish trends and analysis to treat it seriously and play it like any other day?

[Zack]

Fine. I don't much care about that right now, though, would rather have reads as opposed to an excuse for not having any. Let's see this focus on day one content.

it reminds me of how i played in aspiring rappers on d1 (as scum)

i don't understand why so many people are town-reading jabbz, i feel like i am taking crazy pills

if anything it seems like artificial support from wolfbros

[Zack]

vote: jabbz

[Zack]

anyone hesitating to make a read out of fear of being wrong deserves a slap

[dicetosser1]

And if he continues in his position of rep?

then the people in his electorate obviously like his work. Plus we see what he does and can evaluate KNOWING he is DV

Leaning the bold here tentative Towny tone for Dice.

I also want more from GH and Montmorency and can see TownDiceMind latching at these two.

Have never known him to be self conscious about how things go over so my own 'logical paranoia' says the other part still currently stands out.
@dice, what alignment were you on PerC and could you link me to your ISO from that game pls?

the paranoia comment is me thinking what scum might do in a situation.

I cant find the one with visor in it I think it was disc world but this is a scum game I replaced into http://personalitycafe.com/mafia/870...-town-win.html

don't think I lasted long

[Zack]

lolperc

[Jabbz]

Because I like you and you've gotten a lot of bad games lately.

I guess you could say that Hardclaim: Liar is a pretty bold start for a scum but really I just like you and want to play a game with you and not have you lynched for dumb reasons on like day two.

I wasn't sure what this meant when it was first posted, but now I'm even more confused, as you make it sound like something official. What do you folks mean when you say "Hardclaim: Liar?" Inside joke, or something more meaningful?

[Jabbz]

I'm going to say it one more time. My criteria for voting someone for representative was, primarily, to put someone in there I thought I would be able to read, if they were town. Dp fits that criteria better than anyone else in my group, so I voted for him. He has since posted in ways that make me comfortable with that choice as being someone who actually is town. Do you get it now?

You realize that's the same criterion I put forth, for the same person, and I'm pretty sure I put it in before you, though I could certainly be wrong on the timing. Why exactly don't you like me again? Genuine question. (Sorry used to a forum tool that lets us pick out individual players so it's easy to quickly scan through every post of a specific person in a hurry. My kung fu at going through manually is less developed)

[Jabbz]

This is a fundamental problem for me! I read Jabbz post and thought "his thinking is similar to mine - must be town!"
Yet, you guys think the exact opposite. explains why people find me wolfy all the time.

If it makes you feel better, I often get thought of as scum early. My approach to the game is different, as I was first exposed to Mafia as an in person game with a group of college speech and debate folks, so the style was different in the extreme. Towards the end of the game I just end up being hyper defensive, and still thought of as scum :P I'm pretty much used to that flow at this point, and am resigned to looking scummy, so I just do my best to hunt, and when I die, with luck, my arguments get some extra credibility and are used to find some wolves.

[Jabbz]

Well I mean, maybe I guess

The biggest thing that reads villager to me is "I need to stick to my reads more" but I think that's more of a "echoes my playstyle" so I cant really say you're a lock villager for it as I implied but

Still villagery /shrugs

That statement comes out every game I've played with him :P Pretty much a null tell in my book.

[Renata]

You realize that's the same criterion I put forth, for the same person, and I'm pretty sure I put it in before you, though I could certainly be wrong on the timing. Why exactly don't you like me again? Genuine question. (Sorry used to a forum tool that lets us pick out individual players so it's easy to quickly scan through every post of a specific person in a hurry. My kung fu at going through manually is less developed)

I was responding to atheotes in that post. I don't know why you're talking to me about it. It's your first post as a whole that I had a problem with (and lack of any signs of towniness since then), not whatever specific opinions you might have about the mechanics.

You can go through a person's posts individually by clicking on the total thread posts number on the game thread.

As for Winston, I'd say it's a joke, likely related to his (false) "Hardclaim: Survivor" post that got him lynched day one of a previous game. But as always, if you have to explain it, you ruin it.

[Jabbz]

Fine. I don't much care about that right now, though, would rather have reads as opposed to an excuse for not having any. Let's see this focus on day one content.

First, I have made reads where I felt they were applicable, note for instance the jump on Zack early. Implying I'm using my arguments as an excuse to not do so is disingenuous at best. Second, I noted early on that I know exactly one (maybe two, I think I played one game with Winston, not sure) people in this game, so my I have no baselines for my reads. The vast majority of reads so far have been based on individuals past experience with those they are reading, I've done the same with Dp101. Absent that however, I don't have much to work with.

isn't the best way to establish trends and analysis to treat it seriously and play it like any other day?

Sure, and I've poked and prodded where I found something interesting, and responded where appropriate. Please note the above section.

it reminds me of how i played in aspiring rappers on d1 (as scum)

i don't understand why so many people are town-reading jabbz, i feel like i am taking crazy pills

if anything it seems like artificial support from wolfbros

Given the size of this game, there likely between 4 and 5 wolves. You're saying three of them jumped to defend another, constituting the majority of the wolves, because.... reasons? That makes zero logical sense what so ever. As I noted above, when you haven't played with someone you have no baseline for their behavior and interactions. That means you folks are going into this blind in regards to me. Why would I need to be artificially propped up? I have what, one, maybe two votes on me? Not exactly enough pressure to warrant support by my team. This argument is sketchy as hell.

[Zack]

Given the size of this game, there likely between 4 and 5 wolves. You're saying three of them jumped to defend another, constituting the majority of the wolves, because.... reasons? That makes zero logical sense what so ever. As I noted above, when you haven't played with someone you have no baseline for their behavior and interactions. That means you folks are going into this blind in regards to me. Why would I need to be artificially propped up? I have what, one, maybe two votes on me? Not exactly enough pressure to warrant support by my team. This argument is sketchy as hell.

isn't your entire case on me that people voted me chancellor early?

[Zack]

and if you actually read what i said instead of inserting your own interpretation as you seem wont to do, you'd realize that comment was an afterthought as a possible explanation for the number of inexplicable townreads on you

if you need me to explain why wolves would townread their teammates, then lol

[Jabbz]

I was responding to atheotes in that post. I don't know why you're talking to me about it. It's your first post as a whole that I had a problem with (and lack of any signs of towniness since then), not whatever specific opinions you might have about the mechanics.

You can go through a person's posts individually by clicking on the total thread posts number on the game thread.

As for Winston, I'd say it's a joke, likely related to his (false) "Hardclaim: Survivor" post that got him lynched day one of a previous game. But as always, if you have to explain it, you ruin it.

I'm not talking about mechanics, I'm talking about your reasons for putting Dp101 in blue, as I did. Sorry if there was some confusion there, but the question remains.

I may be blind, but I'm not seeing a total thread posts number anywhere, could I get some additional clarification there? That sounds extremely useful.

On Winston, got it. Better a ruined joke though that thinking I might be missing something important.

[Jabbz]

isn't your entire case on me that people voted me chancellor early?

and if you actually read what i said instead of inserting your own interpretation as you seem wont to do, you'd realize that comment was an afterthought as a possible explanation for the number of inexplicable townreads on you

if you need me to explain why wolves would townread their teammates, then lol

There is a difference between a few people coming in to get a train rolling on voting you chancellor, and having someone artificially prop up someone who you claim is reading scum. I can say I voted for you for chancellor in the first 10 pages (I have mine on 10 posts per page) without being attacked for being scum if you pop wolf later, by just pointing out there were no other options at the time. To defend someone who you claim is looking scummy however, that puts those people on the spot should I pop scum later.

This is the second or third time you've attempted to dismiss my arguments by implying I lack the intelligence to understand how this game works. While that doesn't bother me, think what you will, it does come across as a very weak method of arguments, as you don't deal with my argument, but instead create a strawman and then insult me for arguing it. I made a clear argument regarding why wolves wouldn't, under these circumstances, support a teammate in the way you say. Rather than deal with that argument you "lolwut?" and try to move on. It's scummy as hell mate, and I'm glad my vote is already on you, saves me the effort of changing it.

[Zack]

i don't even understand what you are talking about in your first paragraph

your second is pretty rich

[Renata]

Go out to Gameroom forum itself. You'll see the thread for this game. To the right you will see the word "Replies" and a number, which is currently 406. If you click on the 406 you will get a list of people who've posted in the thread with the number of their posts to the right. Click on those numbers and you get all of that player's posts.

As for the answer to the question of 'why I don't like you', you'll find it if you look at my posts. ;)

I'd really like to see what you have to say when you're not defending yourself, so I'm not going to keep arguing with you right now. I'll just say that I don't consider what you had to say about the initial push for Zack as chancellor to be a read in the sense that I mean.

[Zack]

what is your read on sooh and barto

[Renata]

That was a response to 407.

[Zack]

that question was directed to jabbz

I'd like to hear him give an actual read that isn't just making up new reasons to not change his vote from me

[Jabbz]

And with that I'm caught up. Some thoughts before I take off for a while.

I still like the arguments being made by Cass, they come across as genuine and thoughtful. While there is some discussion about mechanics, which I think is appropriate given the nature of this format and the fact that Cass is a contender for Chancellor, there is also a great deal of other observations. More than anyone other than Rennata, Cass has been prodding and questioning others on their arguments, and hasn't been afraid to put those on record. To me that's a huge town read.

I also feel much the same way about Rennata. There are a great deal of posts, and the vast majority of them seem substantive, unlike others who don't seem to be contributing to much other than their post count. Rennata doesn't like me so far, but that in and of itself isn't a tell either way, especially given that their observations on me have been direct and thoughtful, rather than superficial.

Dp101 Seems pretty much the same as I've seen him in past games. In the past it has taken him a day or two to get in a groove, and even then he jumps at anything shiny. He's also pretty good about dropping them once he realizes he is wrong however, and that behavior seems to be continuing here. With him in my sectors representative spot, I'll be able to see him at work, but so far he comes across towny.

Visor's posts come across as fairly empty of content. He has made a number of statements regarding how he is going to win, by "finding wolves and lynching them" but hasn't contributed much beyond that. Most of his posts are short and are about him in some way or another. That could be his style, I don't know, but it comes across as artificially upping a post count by not saying much.

Zack comes across as very scummy to me. I addressed my reservations of him a post or two above, and said why my vote is on him, so I won't repeat it.

Everyone else so far I don't have a read on either way. Maybe later there will be more for me to work with. Off for a while. Have fun.

[Zack]

well glad i could hear your thoughts on the major wagons before you left

[Renata]

what is your read on sooh and barto

And atheotes and GH.

[Renata]

I like the shade on Visor. Not that I'm ridiculously confident in my Jabbz vote or anything, but if I do turn out to be right, that looks decidedly unlike w/w.

[Zack]

I like the shade on Visor. Not that I'm ridiculously confident in my Jabbz vote or anything, but if I do turn out to be right, that looks decidedly unlike w/w.

I've seen some variation of that line from lots of people playing with visor for the first time, regardless of alignments

[GeneralHankerchief]

I'm finishing off a bottle of Sangiovese that I started an hour ago, ask me anything.

[Renata]

I'm finishing off a bottle of Sangiovese that I started an hour ago, ask me anything.

Who are your scum partners?