Representative Democracy [Concluded]

[GeneralHankerchief]

GH, I don't quite understand why Cuth-scum flip makes town Schema likely. Or more than null?

I think when Schema was taking heat earlier she was doth protesting too much about a possible M/M linkage between her and Cuth. Struck me as one of those "partially true" defenses.

[Montmorency]

There is a decent amount of "I'm not scum partners with Cuth" and attacks on Cuth, which could strike me as a maf doing a partial deflection because she perceives the town as attacking the right target but for the wrong reasons. I don't think it's likely that Schema and Cuth are m/m but if Cuth is the lynch and flips town... well.

To be more specific, why do you (GH) dismiss the bold, and why does it look like Schema-scum if Cuth is town? What exactly is your relational argument here for opposite alignment, since the relation seems to be the focus?

Why isn't it a wash, either?

[Renata]

GH, would still like you to follow up on your assertion that somebody's who's voting you while ignoring the lower tier of posters is scum. Who is it and why?

[GeneralHankerchief]

GH, would still like you to follow up on your assertion that somebody's who's voting you while ignoring the lower tier of posters is scum. Who is it and why?

Going by Monty's tally near the top of Page 59, it looks like my current voters thusfar are you, Monstrbro, and Cuth (I could have sworn that there were more but I guess you always assume the outlook's worse for you than it actually is when votes are staring you in the face). Of the three I don't really see you or Monstrbro being scum so I guess it would be Cuth, but I was speaking more of the general concept.

[Monstrdude]

@Monstrbro, you were wholly against cuth's lynch yesterday, repeatedly calling him a villager and so on. Where are you at today and who are you voting for?

I'm voting for GH right now

I still kinda think cuth is a villager. I've done exactly the same stuff as him before in exactly the same position. The problem is that it seems like so much of the thread wants him dead that my voice doesn't really matter so I don't really know how to approach the situation. I mean, even if he's a villager that continues to survive he will just be a wagon again tomorrow 9/10 times so I'm not really sure my opinion matters

[Renata]

@Montmorency:

I mean, here's your post. You represent it at the outset as being explicitly about "the choxorn affair", and then you talk about everybody involved except yourself. The focus on Visor doesn't come until later.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

From yesterday's events we have hard-cleared Renata, Cass, DP101, and (nearly-so) atheotes. They are inarguably the towniest players now.

Let's talk about the Choxorn affair in its sequence:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Early game vote for Zack.



Later entry, with town reads on Renata, Cuth, and GH, expressing agreement with Zack on subject of role claims.



Final post for the time, a comment on Jabbz' posting.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Renata makes her negative assessment of Choxorn's entry (835).

Immediately after, Visor joins in condemning the Choxorn post.



A few minutes later, he posts a comprehensive reads/leans list, marking Renata as lock town for her drawing attention to Choxorn, and making his own read on Choxorn as "wolfy". He puts Choxorn as lynch candidate above only Cuthilius and El Barto. One of his reads is a frivolous comment on Riedquat.



Then Visor makes an addendum to his reads post, for little value. With Riedquat having only one post at the time, there was no point in speaking like this of him, giving leans. "Possibly town" on a hunch???

"Need a few flips" to feel comfortable with reads is unimpressive in itself, all the more so when he had no problem with discomfort throughout the day or immediately prior to this post.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Atheotes remarks that Renata is trending up for her Choxorn case.

Winston finds Renata's flow towny. Winston responds to one of Choxorn's posts with a complaint.



Jabbz responds to Choxorn's lament on textwalls, sticking to his disappointment with Zack.



Cass' notes on Choxorn's main post~.



Monstrbro thinks Renata is town.



Monstrbro comments on Cuth-Chox. Choxorn evaluated overall as barely villagery.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Atheotes votes Choxorn.

Sooh's attack on atheotes gets well underway. This casts a small shadow over her. Renata, Zack, and others defend atheotes. Cuthilius is willing to vote Renata for rep over DP101 as more reliable or robust (999).

Cuthilius finds Renata's reads on Monstrbro towny (991).

Schema sees Renata trending up and acknowledges Choxorn's posts, asks for meta on him.



Schema takes full scum lean on Visor.



Cuth speculates on how scumChox votes. Switches back to voting Sooh shortly after.



DP comes in to put himself up for the Rep position and votes Choxorn (1025)

Sooh finally votes atheotes after this, looks to win the position of District Rep (1047).

Schema likes Sooh and doesn't like Atheotes.



Schema votes Renata for rep (1123).

On page 39, Bsmith changes rep vote to Visor ("to test double vote") and Sooh changes rep vote to Zack.

Atheotes petitions Cass on the lynch.



Sooh hardclaims Watcher (1170).

Chox substantively closes the day by showing up EOD to vote Al Sipsclar, who a bit earlier appeared to make ritual-vote on BSmith and said little else (1175).

All of this looks clearing for DP, Cass, and Renata, and overwhelming in favor of Atheotes on top of previous behavior. But rather than assessing others in relation to them, right now the focus is on how Visor relates to it.


Visor's tone changes notably in his final activity of the day, which comes right after Renata opens the case on Choxorn. His claimed double-vote never manifests. Strikingly, he makes numerous pleas toward prospective Reps to vote Cuth with him. This is striking because even one (of the two other) reps voting with Visor would conceal any double vote effect should it exist, since 2-1 is indistinguishable on our part from 3-1: the result is the same. His calls for consolidation were just meant to erect a front that would give him a pass from putting up.


I'd also like to broach what I was hinting at earlier respecting the claim. Look here at Visor's comment just prior to Chox events that



This is in other words a statement that he would not use his power on D2, toward the end of avoiding a burnout. I think his statement reflects the broader mechanical truth that Pizza would never grant a player, town or Mafia, an unlimited double vote. It could conceivably be more than a one-shot, but at best it would have an alternate-day effect. Visor was laying ground to avert consequences from future inconsistencies, without admitting details of the power. Since Visor went inactive before EOD, and DP had not voted Choxorn yet, and District 1 was still up in the air between Renata, Cuth, and DP, there is no argument that Visor is cleared by virtue of not taking action to save Choxorn, who anyway was killed by tiebreaker ability.
One of Cuth or Visor must be scum, opposite alignment. Who Cuth is in turn sheds light on Sooh, since Cuth was one of the few to carry a renewed push against Sooh late in the day. There is also a technical scenario in which Visor and Cuth were furiously bussing, and Visor never planned to apply special powers to lynch him. However, most players do not like the strategy of intense bussing from D1, and regardless it does not lessen the need to lynch Visor.

EDIT: Sooh is town, as we now know. Pending...

[Cass_]

@Montmorency

Please link me to your two most recent Town and your two most recent Scum games.

Sincerely,

Madame Chancellor

[Monstrdude]

If anything, I can see the case against cuth because of all my posts earlier today about how he was fighting for sooh to get lynched once the potential wagons became him and choxorn

He didn't seem too enthused about it before then and the switch from sooh came out of nowhere, so him doing it to save himself and a bro from lynch does fit.

If he is a wolf I'm certain barto is a villager, and probably vice versa?

They can still both be villagers too

Cuth wolf flip clears visor/zack 100% pretty much too but if he's a villager i can't really see any benefit from deadding him. No one looks particularly bad from it except MAYBE visor and we don't get much information

Also I am having trouble finding a viable wagon I believe in. I probably just need to get good

[Renata]

vote: Montmorency

I mean, I'm not even sure it makes wolfy sense to brazenly just leave your own interactions with the flipped mafia out of a post that purports to be about interactions with the flipped mafia ,but come on this isn't right.

If I'm over-reacting, fine.

[Montmorency]

@Montmorency:

I mean, here's your post. You represent it at the outset as being explicitly about "the choxorn affair", and then you talk about everybody involved except yourself. The focus on Visor doesn't come until later.

It's not comprehensive. Frankly, the exchange between you and me had no bearing on how players related to Choxorn and how that in turn could relate to Visor.

[GeneralHankerchief]

To be more specific, why do you (GH) dismiss the bold, and why does it look like Schema-scum if Cuth is town? What exactly is your relational argument here for opposite alignment, since the relation seems to be the focus?

Why isn't it a wash, either?

Let me clear up the bolded sentence you quoted.

(This is a universe where Schema is maf but Cuth is town)

The sequence of votes is that Cuth has votes and Schema's taking some heat.
Schema sees, whether real or imagined, people linking her to Cuth.
Schema wants to defend this, makes a couple of posts saying the link to her and Cuth is off base.
Partial defenses always ring truer than entirely fabricated defenses, Schema takes the tactic that "we can't be M/M because X Y and Z", that part she mostly focuses on is her affiliation with Cuth, that's not a lie (they're not M/M together) so all's good.

~~~~~~

In a universe where Cuth *is* scum then Schema's stated defense makes sense and I don't see them being mafia together.

[Monstrdude]

I really have no idea what to make of Montmorency

He's probably a villager If visor is a wolf and could be (?) A wolf if visor is a villager

I think you should make a reads list monty

[Renata]

Going by Monty's tally near the top of Page 59, it looks like my current voters thusfar are you, Monstrbro, and Cuth (I could have sworn that there were more but I guess you always assume the outlook's worse for you than it actually is when votes are staring you in the face). Of the three I don't really see you or Monstrbro being scum so I guess it would be Cuth, but I was speaking more of the general concept.

So you were just warning people off from voting you in general, lest they look scummy for it?

Eh.

[Cass_]

Actually,

@ Everybody

OFFICIAL ORDER OF CHANCELLORY BUSINESS

----- Please provide links to ISO's for your two most recent Town and your two most recent Scum games -----

Your applications for residence in this Town will be judged accordingly.

Cheers and thank you.

Madame Chancellor,

On behalf of all of those here who are not Wolfy.

[Montmorency]

@Montmorency

Please link me to your two most recent Town and your two most recent Scum games.

Sincerely,

Madame Chancellor

Lol, OK.

Town: This one.
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...tion-Concluded


Scum: https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...Game-Concluded
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...afia-Concluded

[GeneralHankerchief]

So you were just warning people off from voting you in general, lest they look scummy for it?

Eh.

Stop oversimplifying, you know I've taken a lot more heat in this round than simply getting 2-3 votes.

[Cass_]

I really have no idea what to make of Montmorency

He's probably a villager If visor is a wolf and could be (?) A wolf if visor is a villager

I think you should make a reads list monty

What about of his own accord?

[Monstrdude]

Actually,

@ Everybody

OFFICIAL ORDER OF CHANCELLORY BUSINESS

----- Please provide links to ISO's for your two most recent Town and your two most recent Scum games -----

Your applications for residence in this Town will be judged accordingly.

Cheers and thank you.

Madame Chancellor,

On behalf of all of those here who are not Wolfy.

I'm on phone so not gonna happen

Heroes mash on MU most recent scum

South Park mash on PoG best scum ever

Dragon Age mishmash on pog most recent villager game

And then idk check an mu game or something the database is easy to find. Internet life is probably a good one to look at I posted a lot and was really villagery iirc

[Renata]

It's not comprehensive. Frankly, the exchange between you and me had no bearing on how players related to Choxorn and how that in turn could relate to Visor.

Get off it?

[Monstrdude]

What about of his own accord?

He can do what he wants

It was a suggestion jeez

[Montmorency]

GH: OK, but I don't really see the weight.

I think you should make a reads list monty

I don't have anything to add there, so here's something from notes:

Town: DP101, Cass, Renata, atheotes
Lean Town: Jabbz, Monstrbro
Null: Dice, Winston, El Barto, Sooh, Visor
Lean Scum: Schema, GH, Cuth
Little: BSmith, riedquat, Csargo, Al Sipsclar,

[Cass_]

Lol, OK.

Town: This one.
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...tion-Concluded


Scum: https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...Game-Concluded
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...afia-Concluded

Thank you
Two of each please


This is part of how I'll be making decisions between tied votes each round so it saves me a lot of time if everyone just has links in their ISO here pls.

[Montmorency]

Get off it?

Is that directed to me, or is it backhanded?

[Visor]

Actually,

@ Everybody

OFFICIAL ORDER OF CHANCELLORY BUSINESS

----- Please provide links to ISO's for your two most recent Town and your two most recent Scum games -----

Your applications for residence in this Town will be judged accordingly.

Cheers and thank you.

Madame Chancellor,

On behalf of all of those here who are not Wolfy.

nope

glgl

[GeneralHankerchief]

I don't have anything to add there, so here's something from notes:

Town: DP101, Cass, Renata, atheotes
Lean Town: Jabbz, Monstrbro
Null: Dice, Winston, El Barto, Sooh, Visor
Lean Scum: Schema, GH, Cuth
Little: BSmith, riedquat, Csargo, Al Sipsclar,

How/why does your opinion of dicetosser differ with dice's position in the town consensus meta, as per here:

GH I think consensus would exchange dicetosser and Jabbz in their categories. Nothing but kind words toward dice so far.

?

[Montmorency]

How/why does your opinion of dicetosser differ with dice's position in the town consensus meta, as per here:

Most who expressed a towny vibe for dice got that from his vociferous semantic opposition to my claiming that some players are "clear" or "lock town", and so on.

Could be bias but I don't see it the same way.

[Montmorency]

Small OOC request: Don't make mentions of me in your posts when you know I'm right here.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Actually,

@ Everybody

OFFICIAL ORDER OF CHANCELLORY BUSINESS

----- Please provide links to ISO's for your two most recent Town and your two most recent Scum games -----

Your applications for residence in this Town will be judged accordingly.

Cheers and thank you.

Madame Chancellor,

On behalf of all of those here who are not Wolfy.

Vote: Mutiny

[Renata]

Ooh, homework! @Cass_

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Cass, I haven't drawn a wolf role in five years. Here's one game I bookmarked from Straight Dope a few weeks ago when I anticipated getting questions like this. I have no idea if it's representative of how I'd play today; I suspect that in at least some ways it's not. But it's all I have. http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/...ighlight=mafia I'm playing as "Normal Phase". It's a win in F5, no iso because the site doesn't support it.

Town roles:
Cereal Killers on MU, dead night one as Jailkeeper, boo. Game is still ongoing. http://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/...earchid=683808
Visor's Small Mafia game, here. Lost in F6 LYLO. You'll only get the most recent 100 posts. https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/searc...archid=2069706
And just because I have to put in something successful, Looney Tunes Alias on MU, win as Mason, survived. My alias was "Granny". http://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/...earchid=683813

Not sure what you plan to do with all of this, but gl!

[Riedquat]

Riedquat, for the hell of it

I do agree!