Representative Democracy [Concluded]

[Montmorency]

Why was he shot any of the other consensus Towns despite the fact he could have been seriously suspicious for putting GH into the PoE after the flip?

Not really. TBH your position on towncred is mechanically strongest, but from meta DP has always been the top of the heap of the lock-towns. Natural first choice to kill, especially if you aren't yet prepared for the upheaval resultant from the death of the Chancellor.

[Cass_]

I think she meant why Cass voted GH over me.

OK, I see you're warming on the "Cuth-Cass-Bart-Choxorn" conspiracy I mentioned yesterday. Good effort, but I still think it's nuts and at any rate self-resolving through failure to die or to lynch scum on Cass' part.

I want to see El Barto flip now, since People OK with Barto lynch: Zack, GH, Visor, Schema, Monstr (when Cass was canvassing about it at EOD). But, as I said, I don't see scummy in him atp and Cuth is the best case.

Another note: yesterday

Vote: Cuth

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Also, I want to see Pizza's full narrative progression on Cass-as-overlord.

Failure to lynch scum on my part has two contributors - the system and my own reads. How do you propose to tell the difference? Essentially me lynching Town by mistake could be caused by either/both at the same time.

I think Barto's flip will be difficult to decipher interactions-wise regardless of his alignment.

Why don't you see scummy? I see a couple of mentions/hints/possibilities that he could be Town, but his play is not pro-Town by any stretch and hasn't improved in that regard. How long do we let 'could' cancel out his current play?

[Montmorency]

Failure to lynch scum on my part has two contributors - the system and my own reads. How do you propose to tell the difference? Essentially me lynching Town by mistake could be caused by either/both at the same time.

If you are town, then for scum to not kill you the whole game and to rely on luck and guile to build you up as a mislynch would require nerves of steel. I have never heard of a player whom I believe capable of even considering such a strategy, let alone executing it. To say nothing of how such a player's partners would need to operate. If you remain alive and scum are not being lynched by you up to LYLO, then you're almost certainly scum.

I don't think it will come to that, however.

How long do we let 'could' cancel out his current play?

Not before Cuth is lynched, at least. No policy lynches are unilateral gut reads until we have this clarified.

[Cass_]

This is pretty much where I'm at. Now that dp is dead I'm feeling a bit more pressure looking at those left in my district. I don't want Cuth elected under any circumstance, he's too big of a question mark. And really there needs to be a close eye on who tries to take his place.

My goal with the extended day, which for me actually means extra time since I've got a quiet holiday, is to take a look at these in depth:

Zack -- post quality from beginning to end game. I still lean town on him but I'm keeping an open mind because of how much there is to sift through. I could have my viewpoint challenged, we'll see.

Zack's proposed wolf team -- I had strong town feels on Cass early on, but whereas Cuth had a bad EOD1, she had a less than impressive EOD2 and lynch decision. If she is a wolf, Choxorn being gone as goon buys her credibility and removes no one of consequence from the team. I mean, Choxorn was the obvious choice by the way he popped in and popped out. El Barto still being here makes no sense at this point considering her multiple votes, as he pointed out.

Cuth, again -- There's something in me that doesn't want to let this go because yuck. So many votes headed here. But I've got this nagging suspicion that we've got a deep wolf or two and if Cuth is scummy regardless of alignment, he could be an easy player to push toward lynch. I'm trying to look at actual actions that could mean something, which is why I voted Cuth and not GH.

If anyone with some meta background on Cuth could tell me what we're seeing this game that are CONSTANTS for him, regardless of alignment, that would help greatly. Is he quick to change his mind? Does he give reads without lengthy explanation?

What about El Barto being here as per my rational?

What's your own view on El Barto?

Meta I have on Cuth of the top of my head as Town - Goes at Visor, Posts in streams of thought without punctuation, Draws attention to himself.

Caveat: I have no idea if he does any/all of those above as scum. I only recall playing him as Town. Potentially a biased read. Note to self, look at Bandicoot, not just Rappers.

What are your reasons/the actions that make you think he's scum, and how do they line up against that?

Also, grain of salt and all that, but I generally detest bussing as scum.

[Montmorency]

No policy lynches or unilateral gut reads until we have this clarified.

[Cass_]

If you are town, then for scum to not kill you the whole game and to rely on luck and guile to build you up as a mislynch would require nerves of steel. I have never heard of a player whom I believe capable of even considering such a strategy, let alone executing it. To say nothing of how such a player's partners would need to operate. If you remain alive and scum are not being lynched by you up to LYLO, then you're almost certainly scum.

I don't think it will come to that, however.



Not before Cuth is lynched, at least. No policy lynches are unilateral gut reads until we have this clarified.

Why for the bold?

I am essentially the perfect target for this if you have played with me enough. I get Townread early as either alignment, and then things fall to s*** for a bit before I either pick myself back up or crumble/paint myself into a wall with paranoia.

Second bold - almost certainly, but not entirely, and this discounts the idea that Scum have a hand in pushing Town candidates towards options I have to pick between in a tie. /shrug

[Cass_]

No policy lynches or unilateral gut reads until we have this clarified.

I like this idea.

[Cass_]

Failure to lynch scum on my part has two contributors - the system and my own reads. How do you propose to tell the difference? Essentially me lynching Town by mistake could be caused by either/both at the same time.

I think Barto's flip will be difficult to decipher interactions-wise regardless of his alignment.

Why don't you see scummy? I see a couple of mentions/hints/possibilities that he could be Town, but his play is not pro-Town by any stretch and hasn't improved in that regard. How long do we let 'could' cancel out his current play?

Mont, please answer the bold, you skipped it.

[Cass_]

Not really. TBH your position on towncred is mechanically strongest, but from meta DP has always been the top of the heap of the lock-towns. Natural first choice to kill, especially if you aren't yet prepared for the upheaval resultant from the death of the Chancellor.

What's your take on the Zack focusing mostly on sideline comments and self-defence/whymefryme D1/D2 argument, and is it indicative to you that it's changed considerably after he was a contender for lynch?

[Montmorency]

Why for the bold?

I am essentially the perfect target for this if you have played with me enough. I get Townread early as either alignment, and then things fall to s*** for a bit before I either pick myself back up or crumble/paint myself into a wall with paranoia.

Second bold - almost certainly, but not entirely, and this discounts the idea that Scum have a hand in pushing Town candidates towards options I have to pick between in a tie. /shrug

As I said, because great luck, skill, and discipline are required, and exemplary team work. Scums have to work and maneuver the town as you describe unflinchingly and unfailingly. If cracks don't show in the process of such a titanic endeavor, then heck, we're probably wrong about Bart and Cuth and it's actually Visor-Winston-Jabbz-dicetosser or something.

I don't see anything Barto's done as scummy for him or in itself so far, beyond "not helpful" as some may complain. That's usually not good enough to entertain, unless it's a lazy day with no prospects.

[Montmorency]

What's your take on the Zack focusing mostly on sideline comments and self-defence/whymefryme D1/D2 argument, and is it indicative to you that it's changed considerably after he was a contender for lynch?

Changed not really. What's my take? I'm keeping an eye out. Conditions are changing. So far it's appropriate.

[Montmorency]

One problem in this game is that we have talked so much that we've run out of meaningful things to say for the actual activity. This will reflect in the slump of all but the most indefatigable 'content-creators'.

[Cass_]

You ignored my problems.

Why do you keep voting barto if you didn't want to lynch him?

Why have you spit on the idea of democracy?

I feel like i can never engage with you, you're always talking around me cass. Asking me questions, commenting on things I've done, but ignoring my own answers and questions.

I think I've answered these two things sufficiently this day phase. Any issues with it still let me know but I think that debate will go in circles if you can't see where I'm coming from already.

The last point is mutual, and part of the reason why I asked you why you were on at me D2 when we were both ITT.
I get I latch onto early paranoia, I get that the you not voicing suspicion is a thing that may go either way, I ask about this sort of stuff early on because it stands out to me.

WRT your later play, you didn't encourage interaction with me until you started pushing me. Until then you deflected things I said or shut me down with whymefryme/snarky attacks. You didn't give input or opinions on any of the things I said or asked people for input on. You didn't push anything I wouldn't see you doing as wolf (Why is Visor even Wolfy for that, Monty??) (Hedge on Cuth, but egg Visor on).

Coming at me for not sticking with representative voting, when as far as I recall you did nothing to give your actual opinion on that, or encourage Towny cohesion on figuring out strategy early on, not working to offer options, only working to shut them down.

You weren't the only player that did this, but you're one who's still not contributing there and I can't figure out why/how that comes from Town.

I gave you a day because your alignment should become clearer if you pick up your style, and regardless of what it is, it should be helpful for Town later on.

At least that's the way I've interpreted it. Your style the beginning of this day is more what I'd expect from Town you, but it has the problem that you're using it (seemingly) to throw shade at me after you were a candidate for the lynch.

Also, your volume and the game in general. I'm on limited time, I specifically signed up for this game expecting it to be slow and quiet. My capacity to play at this level is hugely reduced.

[Zack]

what in the hell does "whymefryme" mean

[Zack]

I think I've answered these two things sufficiently this day phase. Any issues with it still let me know but I think that debate will go in circles if you can't see where I'm coming from already.

Unfair to paint me this way when the comment you quoted is from before you actually explained anything... which is part of my frustration, you are always playing a page or two behind and writing huge tomes that are difficult for me to parse. I actually think it's sorta funny you and others have complained about how many posts I have making it hard to read through my stuff, when your word count is much higher.

The last point is mutual, and part of the reason why I asked you why you were on at me D2 when we were both ITT.
I get I latch onto early paranoia, I get that the you not voicing suspicion is a thing that may go either way, I ask about this sort of stuff early on because it stands out to me.

WRT your later play, you didn't encourage interaction with me until you started pushing me. Until then you deflected things I said or shut me down with whymefryme/snarky attacks. You didn't give input or opinions on any of the things I said or asked people for input on. You didn't push anything I wouldn't see you doing as wolf (Why is Visor even Wolfy for that, Monty??) (Hedge on Cuth, but egg Visor on).

Coming at me for not sticking with representative voting, when as far as I recall you did nothing to give your actual opinion on that, or encourage Towny cohesion on figuring out strategy early on, not working to offer options, only working to shut them down.

You weren't the only player that did this, but you're one who's still not contributing there and I can't figure out why/how that comes from Town.

I gave you a day because your alignment should become clearer if you pick up your style, and regardless of what it is, it should be helpful for Town later on.

At least that's the way I've interpreted it. Your style the beginning of this day is more what I'd expect from Town you, but it has the problem that you're using it (seemingly) to throw shade at me after you were a candidate for the lynch.

Also, your volume and the game in general. I'm on limited time, I specifically signed up for this game expecting it to be slow and quiet. My capacity to play at this level is hugely reduced.

Have you ever played a game with town me? Honest question, I'm baffled why you would "expect from Town you" when you have never seen town me afaik.

It's hard for me to engage with you when it's always huge walls.

Mildly annoying that you seem to call anything I do "shade".

Wrt the paranoia thing, I was just going from my recollection of it, and was more annoyed that you were calling me suspicious for something I viewed as meaningless and hypocritical.

[Zack]

So the nights results have put Zack more into my town column, as much as I hate to admit it. Dp was heavily on Zack's case, and only backed off because he didn't want to cause more drama in the thread. There was an implication however, I felt, that he still thought Zack was scummy and would be revisiting it. Leaving Zack alive in this instance presents the image of protecting Zack from a valid scumhunt, and it sounds like something I would do if I were scum. Zack has also been a lightning rod for a lot of people's attacks over the last two days. These all make valid reasons for leaving him alive, regardless of his efficacy as a wolf hunter.

I appreciate the sentiment but I don't quite understand it. It seems like a roundabout way of saying you think I'm town because I'm still alive, but I don't think any combination of wolf team would have killed me so it should be a null point?

[Cass_]

As I said, because great luck, skill, and discipline are required, and exemplary team work. Scums have to work and maneuver the town as you describe unflinchingly and unfailingly. If cracks don't show in the process of such a titanic endeavor, then heck, we're probably wrong about Bart and Cuth and it's actually Visor-Winston-Jabbz-dicetosser or something.

I don't see anything Barto's done as scummy for him or in itself so far, beyond "not helpful" as some may complain. That's usually not good enough to entertain, unless it's a lazy day with no prospects.

And yet, at least two players have publicly pushed me about not deciding that way twice in a row already today. Zack is one and Schema is another.

You defend Barto directly, they push shade on me for it, call him Scum, but look set to vote a different way.

IF Cuth is Town and Barto's Scum. This looks bad.

Current tinfoil thoughts with a grain of rice.

AoRN I think strategically Cuth/Barto/Zack/?Schema-other today are good options both for possi-scum and information either way. Not 100% on this, just current racing thoughts.

And I'd prefer it to happen in a style as close to possible as a normal lynch.

[Cass_]

As I said, because great luck, skill, and discipline are required, and exemplary team work. Scums have to work and maneuver the town as you describe unflinchingly and unfailingly. If cracks don't show in the process of such a titanic endeavor, then heck, we're probably wrong about Bart and Cuth and it's actually Visor-Winston-Jabbz-dicetosser or something.

I don't see anything Barto's done as scummy for him or in itself so far, beyond "not helpful" as some may complain. That's usually not good enough to entertain, unless it's a lazy day with no prospects.

And yet, at least two players have publicly pushed me about not deciding that way twice in a row already today. Zack is one and Schema is another.

You defend Barto directly, they push shade on me for it, call him Scum, but look set to vote a different way.

IF Cuth is Town and Barto's Scum. This looks bad.

Current tinfoil thoughts with a grain of rice.

AoRN I think strategically Cuth/Barto/Zack/?Schema-other today are good options both for possi-scum and information either way. Not 100% on this, just current racing thoughts.

And I'd prefer it to happen in a style as close to possible as a normal lynch.

[Fenn]

I don't see a scum team going to great lengths to implicate Cass when they could just NK her.

Going back over D2, I don't like dicetosser's history. Flipped town GH and Zack/Renata who I have townreads on think he is town, but between the posts on mechanics and his own meta, and the pointless arguments with El Barto and Montmorency, there's a lot of what feels like driving up the postcount without contributing much. Seemed oddly insistent that we not be too sure of Dp101/Renata/Cass/atheotes's innocence too.

[Cass_]

Unfair to paint me this way when the comment you quoted is from before you actually explained anything... which is part of my frustration, you are always playing a page or two behind and writing huge tomes that are difficult for me to parse. I actually think it's sorta funny you and others have complained about how many posts I have making it hard to read through my stuff, when your word count is much higher.

The last point is mutual, and part of the reason why I asked you why you were on at me D2 when we were both ITT.
I get I latch onto early paranoia, I get that the you not voicing suspicion is a thing that may go either way, I ask about this sort of stuff early on because it stands out to me.


Have you ever played a game with town me? Honest question, I'm baffled why you would "expect from Town you" when you have never seen town me afaik.

It's hard for me to engage with you when it's always huge walls.

Mildly annoying that you seem to call anything I do "shade".

Wrt the paranoia thing, I was just going from my recollection of it, and was more annoyed that you were calling me suspicious for something I viewed as meaningless and hypocritical.

You were Town in Star Fox, and like I already said, your attitude there and here in some comments was similar so that's a possi-point towards Town.

It is possible I have a biased/poorly formed read from that game given its size and my inability to be across all things. 'Expect from you' is probably something that flows either way - the games I watched you scum in impressed me greatly, I don't see a reason why you wouldn't give me the same impression of you if you were Town but hmmm.

Fair point that I need to consider my expectations/your meta of you as Town.

In a vacuum though, I find your D1, D2 play generically scummy, and your push on me is sus to me knowing my alignment as I do.

[Cass_]

what in the hell does "whymefryme" mean

Not answering questions with anything other than emo 'Why me?' 'They're picking on me'/'Nobody reads my posts' type stuff. Ergo, your D1/D2 play.

Someone continually defends with 'Why me??' you 'Fry' them. They could be Town, but it's not helpful and in the first/one of the early games I played? it was described as a go to scum excuse.

At least that's my understanding and regardless, it fits with my feels? <.<

[Cass_]

Unfair to paint me this way when the comment you quoted is from before you actually explained anything... which is part of my frustration, you are always playing a page or two behind and writing huge tomes that are difficult for me to parse.

Wasn't painting you, I mean if the debate continued after you've read those points.

I get the frustration. I'd like to get gud. Doin what I can with what I have. /Shrug

[Cass_]

Hey everyone. I somewhat followed D2 but will need to reread at some point.

Dp101 was almost 100% confirmed town given his D1 voting (and good posts besides), whereas Zack could conceivably be scum. That's reason enough to do away with Dp. Similar reason could apply for lynching GH (+ he was a less controversial candidate than Zack), but that's getting into WIFOM territory and I'm not convinced that Cass is a wolf.

FWIW Cuthillius seems more scummy than El Barto to me despite EB's D2 weird talk about voting.

Can you explain why, on Cuth?

A new set of eyes on this, when I'm ITT might make it easier to see the case if I'm wrong.

And hi!

[Jabbz]

Today (17) and tomorrow (15), unless we lose a lynch or an extra nightkill pops up.

And this is why I want to teach communication, math is not my strong point.

[Cass_]

@Cass_


You work for the Society for the Protection of Elvish Welfare!?!? That's awesome. Say hi to Hermione for me.

I'm a Paramedic. I work for the society of Sat-Xmas-Eve-Night-Shifts-are-the-pits.

Don't get/agree with the logic behind progression with Zac,

Agree with redistribution of power.

[Cass_]

Aorn, my reads are much the same as the last list I posted.

Things that have changed in gut are Schema and Cuth possibly go down.

[Cass_]

@Montmorency, please explain the reasons why you have people in each tier when districts are set into 5 lots. I don't get what you mean about distributing nobles/commoners etc. I think I like the theory?/it sounds good anyway until I dissect it. I want reasons/explanations based on your own leans too pls.

[Jabbz]

I appreciate the sentiment but I don't quite understand it. It seems like a roundabout way of saying you think I'm town because I'm still alive, but I don't think any combination of wolf team would have killed me so it should be a null point?

The point is more in regards to who was chosen to die. While Dp was definitely a top option for nuking, he wasn't the only one. His death paints you worse than it paints anyone else, and I'm taking my read from that. Keep in mind, its not like I'm reading you from scum to town, I had already pretty much decided you were unlikely to be scum.

[Cass_]

We need to be cohesive so
Thoughts on how to best do this are appreciated.

Currently I'm thinking
Every player votes in their own district as if it is a direct lynch. Call it a preliminary lynch if you will.
District reps vote for the main lynch according to the majority in their district.
Chancellor votes according to the majority of votes for players if there is a tie.


Can everyone agree to this?

[Cass_]

We specifically need to get ordered about what happens with District Reps.

Imo, if we don't make them follow the majority, we're compounding the limitations of the game (restricting Town decisions to limited number of players).

But they deserve to have considerable input in the case that they're Town/Town read.