Representative Democracy [Concluded]

[Zack]

day ends in 14 hours so I recommend people show up and vote and stuff

[atheotes]

Dice, please post your reads list. based on that i might be willing to vote you as rep.

[Montmorency]

Monty, what's your read on Schema?

Measured, low-impact reads of Visor, Zack, and Cuth. D3 read on Zack "could have her viewpoint challenged" on town lean, contains pandering to Zack on Cass conspiracy. To Cass on giving Zack another day on D2: "no more crazy than the rest of us." Sanguine on the GH lynch over Cuth d2, though voted on Cuth because though GH had less content Cuth "did something scummy". Maintains an airy sort of 'balanced' perspective on players, strategy, and game course which is superficially safe and offers less engagement and range than expected. Lady doth protest too much, or object too much as when I pointed out there isn't as much as she suggested dissociating her and Cuth. I'm still inclined to see a relationship for Cuth scum. Not as bad if Cuth town, scum schema here would be less likely to hedge on TownCuth.

It's not in any particular order Monty, by the time of the post I assume he was rushing going to bed ;)

No, look at it this way: the bottom-half of the list is scum, scum lean, and tak dealy. So if Cuth is literally "scum scum" and not sarcastically or flippantly, then putting him at the top among relative townleans should say something. Since whether consciously or not, the list does retain a town-scum spectral quality.

Beyond that, if jabbz &dice are equal nothings they might be together, just as "possi-town" al sips & Renata are together. Then that latter raises the question of why Al Sipsclar should be read in anywhere near the same territory or on similar terms as Renata. Since he didn't provide further notes on it.

#codedlanguage

[dicetosser1]

Dice, please post your reads list. based on that i might be willing to vote you as rep.

im not gonna lay out every one.

but

town

me
cass
monstr
probably cuth
Renata

zack gets his own category people have been pushing him since the start but I haven't seen anything scummy from him. the pushes just make me wonder

bunch of nulls


scummy end for me is

visor just cause he has dropped off since d1. d1 was good but the drop off has me a little tinfoily.
elbarto not helping claimed scum.
monty has been scummy as all game


part of my problem is that im behind from being sick and pizza hasn't updated the OP with who is dead or whgat their alignments were so atp im not totally certain exactly who is alive.

[Visor]

im not gonna lay out every one.

but

town

me
cass
monstr
probably cuth
Renata

zack gets his own category people have been pushing him since the start but I haven't seen anything scummy from him. the pushes just make me wonder

bunch of nulls


scummy end for me is

visor just cause he has dropped off since d1. d1 was good but the drop off has me a little tinfoily.
elbarto not helping claimed scum.
monty has been scummy as all game


part of my problem is that im behind from being sick and pizza hasn't updated the OP with who is dead or whgat their alignments were so atp im not totally certain exactly who is alive.

You haven't even interacted with me lol.

[dicetosser1]

I don't have to have interacted with you to see the driving force that was D1 visor has lessened.

its more of a tinfoil then a true read

[Al Sipsclar]

Vote: Visor
Vote: El Barto

Likely, not going to be around EOD.

Not lynching:
Cass_
Renata
atheotes
Winston Hughes
Visor

No idea:
Jabbz
dicetosser1
Fenn
Schema
Riedquat
Monstrbro

Ok to lynch:
Cuthillius
BSmith
Zack
Montmorency
El Barto

[Visor]

I think Dicetosser is a wolf, thoughts?

[Cass_]

If I was playing D1 I would have pushed Sooh too, at least until the PR claim (and IIRC Schema backed off at that point). APart from that I thought Schema did pretty well explaining her reasoning for her reads. And of course I'd like to be the rep, but I don't forsee getting elected. SOmebody has to vote for another person.

Top lynch choice right now is Cuthillius. El Barto maybe, but I think he can wait for later and he is less suspicious if Cuth is a wolf. I still haven't gotten around to doing the D2 reread like I was planning, need to ISO Riedquat and Schema too and compare them.

@Fenn

Schema town-read Sooh.
Voted GH on YOLO over Chox D1, Voted Cuth over GH D2.

Have you got an updated list of reads?

Vote: Visor

I think that's wrong in the first place, unless you expect 2 or more of District 1 to be scum. But that's not even the thrust of my argument, which is that there is a select group of acceptable candidates and only people from that group should be getting elected by your grace. At the very least, if you think a given district is scummy, then put someone like Renata or yourself over them because they'll have no excuses not to elect you. Your justification for grouping your scum leans (or whatever those guys are) was to avoid their gaining power, but if you are correct in your reads then giving them power is precisely what you accomplish by giving them a district. As for gaining information from votes, there are plenty of good Rep candidates - Winston, Monstr, Visor, Zack - whom we need such information on. Fenn or Riedquat as Rep over one of those is clearly suboptimal.

By the way, your vote was invalid.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

How's that, then? I demand an explanation. Frivolous sussing is out of vogue atp.

I see what you're saying, but you're running on the premise that we, as a game, only analyse the votes put in by District Reps, and that those decisions be made independently of who's in their district?

I reconsidered members voting the same as their rep for now, too hard to coordinate and scum can probably hide there just as easily. I still think reps should vote to represent the majority of votes in their district - yes or no to this?

We need information on everyone. The justification for grouping the lower tiered players was to make them accountable for their own actions. The idea was/is that the game's vote for lynch actually belongs to the majority of players (the majority of players in the game being Town), and not just those elected to represent the district.

@Cass_

Regarding Barto btw, I don't think Barto is playing like in Snake Cult, where he seemed much more direct and engaged. If you'll recall, having read it, I found him scummy from the beginning and tunneled him until LYLO, at which point I saw something alarming in GH and pushed his lynch, at which point Town lost.

The similarities in Barto's play earlier here and Snake Cult (IMO) is the way everything seems more focused on being tongue-in-cheek than solvey, with no logical flow as to who he pushes other than OMGUS. The level of directness is more like Rappers imo, but the tone is different.

WRT Bold - you weren't in Snake Cult unless you were using a different name? And Barto was a NK, not a lynch???

[Cass_]

BSmith. Sorry about quoting all of his posts but they're few enough for 'em to be of significance.

/snip
Above is just [people are posting a lot, i can't]

I thought about this one for a bit. Yes, it's consensus'y for the most part, but I have a very hard time finding any sort of scum alignment in it. I agree with what it says about Barto and Zack. Disagree on the quality of Monty's cases, but that's nothing new and I get what he's trying to say.

Basically, unless somehow he's teamed with a deep wolf and has 0 agendas to advance whatsoever, I don't see this coming from scum.

mild solvy attitude and i do think it feels genuine[/spoiler]


Mildly confident on town here, actually.

How is a post that votes you, sheeping points made by other players, very hard for you to find any sort of scum alignment in, if you're Town?

Interesting theory: Bart-Monstr. Monstr townread Bart early D2 and hasn't addressed him or on him since then according to my records. Bart spent late D1 and early D2 scum-reading Monstr with a few sentences and minimal reasoning. By last game's standards, this could be indicative. Or at least, if you are one to scumread Bart here then you have to seriously consider the possibility of Monstr being his partner.

Only other substantive activity from Bart (on D2) was questions on hard-clear townies; OMGUS policy-vote and mutual-unvote game with Winston, Zack (threat and suss apropos of nothing), and dicetosser; interpret criticism from Renata as accusation of Bart-dicetosser team; question me on sus "Why specifically Csargo [Fenn]?";

Other stuff for accountability:

*Assume 5 start scum
*If Cuth town, Visor back on agenda, Schema townier

*If Cuth scum, revisit Al Sips, Jabbz - distortion on Zack?
*Someone said Cuth flips scum clears Barto - who? Cuth for his part scumleaned Bart D2 (along with GH and Zack)
*Winston looks better?
*Damaging to Monstr for early Cuth scum read, since then townread Cuth? Both Cuth and Monstr insist lynch low-posters first? Cuth reads Monstr town.

*People I would lynch before Barto if Cuth is scum: Schema, Fenn,
*If Cuth is not scum: Fenn, Winston

How is Schema Townier in Cuth Town scenario? Need to look at the timing of the posts, but Schema voted with Cuth consensus rather than GH, when GH was previous vote for her and up for a flip.

[Cass_]

I think Dicetosser is a wolf, thoughts?

Why?

Haven't ISO'd but he's null/prickling/possi-Town to me in what I've seen ITT. Main thing that bothered me was him early calling me Town/possi-buddying.

Who are your top scum at this point Visor? What do you make of Cuth's ISOs this phase? Does he ever make that sort of effort as a Wolf?

Zack, being around for start of the day and a push on me/Cuth/Barto, with a change in style after he was up for lynch, but not having added anything since?

Anyone else?

[Visor]

Why?

Haven't ISO'd but he's null/prickling/possi-Town to me in what I've seen ITT. Main thing that bothered me was him early calling me Town/possi-buddying.

Who are your top scum at this point Visor? What do you make of Cuth's ISOs this phase? Does he ever make that sort of effort as a Wolf?

Zack, being around for start of the day and a push on me/Cuth/Barto, with a change in style after he was up for lynch, but not having added anything since?

Anyone else?

Yes I'm sure he could make that effort as a wolf.

I don't really know at the moment, I was planning on setting an alarm for 4am and doing some ISOs then.

How do you read Dice, Cass? Explain his town and scum games to me.

[Cass_]

FWIW I can see TownDice making the Scumreads he listed at the bottom in the latest reads list /shrug.

?Unlikely that he's WW with Cuth following the 'Cuth is Town cos their ass looks big' defence. He used similar rational in our most recent game to read Sooh/Eldrick hydra. Some tinfoil that he'd expect me/maybe Monstr to defend him for exactly that... meh.

[Visor]

FWIW I can see TownDice making the Scumreads he listed at the bottom in the latest reads list /shrug.

?Unlikely that he's WW with Cuth following the 'Cuth is Town cos their ass looks big' defence. He used similar rational in our most recent game to read Sooh/Eldrick hydra. Some tinfoil that he'd expect me/maybe Monstr to defend him for exactly that... meh.

Why?

There is no evolution on his scum reads?

Its:

visor just cause he has dropped off since d1. d1 was good but the drop off has me a little tinfoily.
elbarto not helping claimed scum.
monty has been scummy as all game

Monty for ???? reasons (basically just acting weird).
El Barto for something he claimed D1 (or D2).
And me for not posting as much.

Where is the evolution of these reads?

[Visor]

The reasons he has are neither detailed or thorough and seem like phoning it in with respect to solving.

Can you explain his scum and town games to me Cass?

[Cass_]

Yes I'm sure he could make that effort as a wolf.

I don't really know at the moment, I was planning on setting an alarm for 4am and doing some ISOs then.

How do you read Dice, Cass? Explain his town and scum games to me.

I don't actually read him well IMO. My best efforts at reading Dice go like this.

"Dice LOCK TOWN! for x-ATTITUDE-thing" - but that's when I've been Scum. It worked, cos that's his meta. I haven't got a recent scum game to compare it with but I think the logic goes that as scum he's more careful/hesitant.

As Town... His gut scum reads can be pretty good. His general meta goes/went that the more blunt and bull-headed he is, the more likely he's Town, though mechanic logic will trump a bull-headed tunnel (eg TownDice won't ever push to lynch a claimed PR IIRC). He picks up on stuff that sh*ts him personally, and immediately votes against it.

IMO as Town, his paranoia of me is high, especially early game. Don't think I saw that here. Questioned it but it went nowhere.

He should become clearer with more content.

[Visor]

Then how long do you give him for that content?

When you're town what do you look for with Dice?

[Cass_]

Why?

There is no evolution on his scum reads?

Its:

visor just cause he has dropped off since d1. d1 was good but the drop off has me a little tinfoily.
elbarto not helping claimed scum.
monty has been scummy as all game

Monty for ???? reasons (basically just acting weird).
El Barto for something he claimed D1 (or D2).
And me for not posting as much.

Where is the evolution of these reads?

The reasons he has are neither detailed or thorough and seem like phoning it in with respect to solving.

Can you explain his scum and town games to me Cass?

Why not make him do it himself?

My take on it is:

AFAIK, Dice doesn't do evolution of his reads, he doesn't really do levels, he does Dice does Black/White, you Scum!

You came in as a driving force, you were loud and proud and then you took a backseat.
Barto - being Barto/incomprehensible.

These are oddities similar to the entry by GH. Red flags to a bull and he'd jump on them either way, and he's an easy mislynch for this behaviour.

Monstr may have more experience with actually reading him than I. TownDice read/defended TownMonstr's play well in the game we just finished. Pretty much all I've got.

[Visor]

Do you think Dice posts more as town over scum?

[Cass_]

Then how long do you give him for that content?

When you're town what do you look for with Dice?

Last game I null-tinfoiled on him til I died.
Might be easier if I link you to games?

[Visor]

Last game I null-tinfoiled on him til I died.
Might be easier if I link you to games?

Eh sure.

Do you think he can emulate his paranoia/suspicion as scum?

The only scum game I played with him he barely posted. I should go reread that actually.

[Cass_]

He's getting better at emulating, according to the word around DM Skype chat.

According to the DB, I actually did play with him scum-him a bit ago. I basically remember nothing from this game.
He et the dust from SK N2.
Dice Scum ISO Disney


Most recent game we completed.
Dice Town, Hackers


Link to all his DM games, ever

[Visor]

Let's roll the Dice.

I want people to talk about him.

Vote: Dicetosser

[Cass_]

not necessarily. Revealing it D1 is a bit out there but not that much but scum?? ideally they wouldn't want it outted if possible. keeping it secret can cause mislynches as town scrambles to figure out who caused the weirdness.

?overexplainy

I don't like these posts tonally. ive seen sooh get a bit emo about not being listened to and being mislynched but it didn't sound like this.
it makes me nervous.

But she IS claiming town PR peeps need to get off her. And yes I know shes been vague. im hoping D2 we find out what she is

Null on this.
Agreed 100% with the first bit, so could be genuine read, not sure about the extra explanation. From what I've seen TownDice doesn't push/vote claimed PRs.

wheels turning means I can see you thinking. youre aussie enuff to know that maroon. the bote? I think ure the best choice. ive got u at 60-65% town but if you think im trusting MY ability to read you correctly ure nuts. Part of the advantage to making you the boss is I get to watch you make ure choices, I suggest you make sure you do it ITT.

I still don't get him voting me blue early, but could give benefit of the doubt that voting me fits in the context of not really knowing anyone else.

COP and DOC is same answer Sooh. If sooh is cop then cop you. id rather get u two straight early so I then have people I can work with

vig hankerchief

Ok for Cop on me, that's consistent with previous games. Idk wrt Sooh. @dicetosser1, don't you read Sooh well? Why Cop her

[QUOTE=dicetosser1;2053728975]

meh i disagree with the case on sooh

i think it's bad

i think she's always utr


ummm what??? UTR sooh means scum sooh. How much have you played with her?

Disagree with UTR meaning scum Sooh, but note that he suggests confidence in reading her, when he would've copped her above.

chokes. exweese me? This is cass your talking about? She of the massive WOT? She of constant verbal diarrhoea about her paranoia? She who does this as scum which she has randed on DM 50% of the time? THAT cass??

cass do you play differently here?

@dicetosser1 - you didn't follow this up? What happened to the paranoia from this quote?

Also, IIRC Zack's assessment of me was fair for the game we scummed together.
@Zack - you say games, plural? Was there another besides Tempus Fugit?

Zack confirmed not reading the thread.

Why?


Then the stuff he pushes Monty/Barto for

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Are either of you named montmorency? No? Then how about you let people answer for themselves in future.

See this quote just above? thats the SECOND time your pushing for them to be HARD CLEARED. Your pushing it hard. So dont give me that come off it bs. Im pages behind how many more times am i going to find you pushing this as i catch up?

Also they are NOT clear any of them could have been bussing a partner for cred or have you never heard of that being done? They may be MORE LIKELY to be town but that is not CLEAR. get it?

red wanna bet?? I was part of a 4 man scum team and my teammate Zander bussed the living hell out of our other teammate lenlo. D1`. Like EXTREME bussing. Dont EVER say never.

and how can you POSSIBLY have them at 99.9%? seriously. They are either 100 % cause of clearing night actions or they are at best like 75%? The only people who can claim that level of confidence on a bunch of people is a) the cop who cleared them b) someone who REALLY knows how to read them like 100 % of the time or c) scum. Are you a or B?

And dont think i didnt notice you trying to squirrel away from this convo with that whole Im not covering this again thing. I will just keep bringing it up and pounding away at you.

Im leaning town. There are differences between his scum game and town game but for me they are mainly tone and behaviour things.


Vote El Barto

LOL so no reason just blatant OMGUS without even arguing?? Cmon town we have scum here.

link me so we can correct the knuckleheads.

dont quite get what ure meaning here

if ure Tak then apparently I have ages ago. But heres the thing. Ive seen someone claim a scum role with their first post. It took me 4 days to get that SOB lynched but I was right. Since then my policy is simple. You claim scum i vote you. If you can convince me ure town fine but until you do that im not going to just take you at ure word. Thats just asking to let myself get sucked in.

Pushes stuff I could see him pushing as either alignment. Know he definitely has an issue with players claiming Scum.

TLDR impression, Not sure if his tone here is genuine/deliberately overdone. Will watch this space.
@Monstrbro - thoughts on Dice?

[Cass_]

Let's roll the Dice.

I want people to talk about him.

Vote: Dicetosser

Did you read the other games?
Thoughts?

And please answer these:

Who are your top scum at this point Visor? What do you make of Cuth's ISOs this phase? Does he ever make that sort of effort as a Wolf?

Zack, being around for start of the day and a push on me/Cuth/Barto, with a change in style after he was up for lynch, but not having added anything since?

Anyone else?

I don't really know at the moment, I was planning on setting an alarm for 4am and doing some ISOs then.

Why do you need to ISO to answer the Cuth/Zack questions?

You were ITT when Cuth posted his run of ISOs
Zack hasn't contributed much since

Where's your head at wrt them?

Why Dice over Cuth/Barto today?

[Visor]

Did you read the other games?
Thoughts?

And please answer these:





Why do you need to ISO to answer the Cuth/Zack questions?

You were ITT when Cuth posted his run of ISOs
Zack hasn't contributed much since

Where's your head at wrt them?

Why Dice over Cuth/Barto today?

Cass, do you think I'm town?

If yes, your questions are mostly fruitless.

(and I answered them anyway iirc).

I'm just giving dice as an option. I want people to talk about him because NOBODY is talking about him.

[Visor]

Did you read the other games?
Thoughts?

And please answer these:





Why do you need to ISO to answer the Cuth/Zack questions?

You were ITT when Cuth posted his run of ISOs
Zack hasn't contributed much since

Where's your head at wrt them?

Why Dice over Cuth/Barto today?

to be clear, i've said I do't know, I don't care for his ISOs, and he could.

Zack has kept sliding downhill, but no real thoughts, haven't focused on him.

Not a fan of Schema or Dice atm, feel like both a getting ignored

also worried that Cuth is town and Zack scum is helping me railroad him

[Riedquat]

No, look at it this way: the bottom-half of the list is scum, scum lean, and tak dealy. So if Cuth is literally "scum scum" and not sarcastically or flippantly, then putting him at the top among relative townleans should say something. Since whether consciously or not, the list does retain a town-scum spectral quality.

Beyond that, if jabbz &dice are equal nothings they might be together, just as "possi-town" al sips & Renata are together. Then that latter raises the question of why Al Sipsclar should be read in anywhere near the same territory or on similar terms as Renata. Since he didn't provide further notes on it.

#codedlanguage

Mmmwew... in my view, 25% probability you have something and 75% you should check the gas leak again... ;)

[BSmith]

I'm about 10 pages behind and unlikely to catch up before the end of day.

vote: atheotes

vote: cuth

We can take care of Barto next.

[BSmith]

Or is there another consensus target that would benefit being removed from the game?