Representative Democracy [Concluded]

[Al Sipsclar]

Vote: Cass_

FTR ISO'd Al Sips in Visor's Small Mafia (Town) and Tokens of my Confection (Maf) myself. AFAICT he's actually wordier/more involved in the latter so my meta is probably outdated/imo zero questioning here is null in itself. Still want to see him more involved in this game.

*Offers chocolate*

Funny, I was not realizing that the questioning other players was expected from me. Makes sense, but I was never thinking that was a requirement for the game.

Unfortunately, I have only so much time to play it. Today I wasted my time allotment looking at Fenn.

Oh, well probably Cuth still, plus his flip would shed light on the people who had pushed/not pushed/defended him, which a lynch of a lurker (Riedquat for example) would not have done.

So, what have you figured out from Cuth's flip?

I don't see a scum team going to great lengths to implicate Cass when they could just NK her.

Going back over D2, I don't like dicetosser's history. Flipped town GH and Zack/Renata who I have townreads on think he is town, but between the posts on mechanics and his own meta, and the pointless arguments with El Barto and Montmorency, there's a lot of what feels like driving up the postcount without contributing much. Seemed oddly insistent that we not be too sure of Dp101/Renata/Cass/atheotes's innocence too.

Calls Dice's arguments with El Barto and Monty pointless.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Monstr, I must be pretty dumb because I don't see how that quoted El Barto post screams scum. I mean your posts do have a stream-of-consciousness quality to them (a towny sign imo). Would town Barto really word that post differently?

Anyway.

Paranoia says that Visor and Zack pushing Cuth D2 was suspiciously coordinated, buuut I did like eg Visor's interactions with Monty and Zack in general, and my only doubt on Cuth scum is that he's sounded almost too scummy to be scum, so I'm only going to think more about that if Cuth is lynched and flips town.

Current read list, roughly ordered:

definitely villagers:
Atheotes
Renata
Cass

probably villager:
Monstrbro
Visor
Zack

(Would preferentially vote any of the above as rep if they had been in my district)

villager lean:
Winston
Schema
Reidquat
Al Sipsclar

no idea:
Jabbz
BSmith
Montmorency (lot of posts, and I agree with him wrt districting and Cuth...but weird tone I don't like)

scum lean:
dicetosser
El Barto

probably scum:
Cuthillius (strangely find his last few posts villagery, but his earlier stuff still makes me think scum)

Vote: Cuthillius

I don't exactly understand the reasoning around that particular quote but I do think Barto is scummy overall. Wasn't trying to knock your read of him in general.

@Fenn - have you followed up on Schema?
Thoughts?



Reads spoilered for size.

Mindmeld with the first part of the response to Monstr.

Rigid vote/read on Cuth with multiple reservations is strange.

Can agree with /understand most of the rest of the read order from a Town point of view/things you've explained but:

Why is Atheotes definitely a villager?
Why is Al Sips in with your villager leans?

Went back and ISO'd her, still think she's villagery. Interactions with Renata sounded natural; good response to Cuth's Sooh-pushing shenanigans EoD1; voting self for rep D2 was a bit odd and still unexplained though. Hasn't posted since the 24th so it would be nice if she could return and give thoughts.

Related, early D2 Montmorency pushing for wolf/town in Visor/Cuth and lynching Visor first for no reasons given that I could find. Also didn't seem to be concerned about Renata's vote for him, and I don't think anybody else really went after him? Gut says possible scum trying to straddle the line between too towny too live and too scummy not to lynch.


Yes I have reservations about Cuthillius, it's possible he's town. I'm not going to pretend to be more certain than I actually am. Still think he's the scummiest player around.




Atheotes' posting has a town perspective to it in general. Add to that and he was pushing for Cuth or Chox to be lynched EoD1 which looks good for him in light of Chox's flip. Hasn't coasted on this either, he's still contributing and trying to solve.

Al Sips is just a feeling. I like his tone, and reasons for reads that he gave.

This is the reason I wanted to look at Fenn. A three-alarm fire for me. This must be the first time a player, who never played with me before, likes my tone! and reasons! I didn't think I gave any reasons for my reads or votes, except maybe once when Winston asked me directly about a couple of folks.

However, with the rest I couldn't find anything I'd disagree with, so at the moment Fenn remains a null for me.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Mea culpa. Sorry for being so obtuse Cuthillius.

Basically no way Monstr isn't town, there's only so deep a deep cover can get before it's self-defeating. Similar for atheotes, it's not impossible that a scum atheotes would assume Cass would choose Barto and thus switch his vote to take the credit, but that's also silly when there's much more plausible theories to look at. Feeling a little better about dicetosser too.

Now that my strongest scum read was actually a villager the whole time I got to step back and reevaluate.

I don't think it's very likely scum would go to great lengths to bus Barto when they're already a man down on D3. It's not like Barto was an unstoppable wagon you'd look scummy for easing up on either, the votes were close enough one could arguably change their mind midway.

@Fenn

What do you think of Visor, Zack, and Monty?

Let me get back to you on that. First thoughts without rereading are that Zack maybe improves a little from wanting to lynch Barto in addition to Cuth (who knows if he would heave kept that up) and being the target of Barto's accusations, Visor slides a little with his dicetosser vote - not weighing in on Cuth vs Barto - and Monty, idk.

Going back through D3 I see Zack being very firm on Barto being scum, BSmith breadcrumbing Vig on #2759/2760, Monstr asked me pointed questions in a post I completely missed (sorry!), and Monty throwing shade on Monstr over his Barto pushes on D2/D3.

In hindsight, Montmorency's repeated argument for lynching Cuth regardless of whether he was the scummiest should have bothered me more than it did. Even if you accept that he'd be on the block until lynched (not a guarantee IMO - I was starting to think he looked better by EoD3) you should try to lynch the guy you think is a wolf. Going for Cuth like that is an attempt to duck responsibility for a possible town flip.

There's not much incentive for mafia to NK Cass; had she been killed last night town would in all likelihood elect Renata who was if anything even more consensus town than Cass. It's questionable if trying to get a scumbuddy elected Chancellor is a good idea in the first place. Need to remember to ISO Renata and look at her reads, possibly she was killed for being on to someone.

FWIW Monstr I'd be cool with electing you if not for atheotes - even with his weird D2 gambit he's still one of my top townreads - and though I disagree wrt Monty town lean. With your v/v/v Visor/Monty/Winston lean what do you make of Monty being voted by the other two?

Schema's posting has dropped off a cliff since D2, would like to see more from her.

Vote: atheotes

[Al Sipsclar]

@Al Sipsclar

What about my posts makes you have "no idea" about my alignment and why?

Your posting style feels "high volume low pressure", which makes it hard to remember what were your points, and gives no desire to go back and re-read you.
But I think your El Barto push elevates you to town now.

[Al Sipsclar]

Again, probably missing the EOD today.

Vote: Visor
Vote: El Barto

Likely, not going to be around EOD.

Not lynching:
Cass_
Renata
atheotes
Winston Hughes
Visor

No idea:
Jabbz
dicetosser1
Fenn
Schema
Riedquat
Monstrbro

Ok to lynch:
Cuthillius
BSmith
Zack
Montmorency
El Barto

I'm leaning town on Dice and Jabbz for lynching El Barto.

Visor is downgraded because of cases he pushed and votes he voted.

Not lynching:
Cass_
atheotes
Monstrbro
Winston Hughes
BSmith

Lean town:
dicetosser1
Jabbz

No idea:
Visor
Fenn
Schema
Riedquat

Ok to lynch:
Zack
Montmorency

Monty at least shows some effort, though I don't see how's he helping town. I think I have not yet played town with Monty, either of us was always a scum.
I'm not a fan of Zack's abrasive style. I don't feel like he wants to cooperate with town. I've been mindmelding/agreeing with everything Winston and Renata said about Zack.

Between Monty and Zack, I'll Vote: Zack first.

[Visor]

Maybe it really is as simple as Schema/Al Sips/Dice

[Visor]

Guarantee you Al Sips ain't gonna respond or note the answer to the questions he just asked

[Riedquat]

Your district choices for rep are BSmith and Visor.

Of Fenn and Schema, whom are you less sure of?

Schema...

[BSmith]

BSmith
Al Sips

I hope to have a bit more time in an hour or so to give some reads.

[BSmith]

... that should be:

vote: BSmith
vote: Al Sips

[Visor]

Vote: schema

[Montmorency]

Maybe it really is as simple as Schema/Al Sips/Dice

And do we really have openly a couple of hours till EoD? We evidently need more time, pizza. Voter suppression!

[atheotes]

When does day end?

[Zack]

And do we really have openly a couple of hours till EoD? We evidently need more time, pizza. Voter suppression!

Krusty Krab unfair, Visorslash is in there.

[atheotes]

Oh...sorry guys. Bit tied up with RL

[Montmorency]

Tally #D1 (Post #3193)
	Blue	Green	Red
DISTRICT ONE	Rep	Chancellor	Lynch
Cass			Al Sipsclar (invalid)
Jabbz	Cass		Schema
Zack	(Zack), Cass		Winston Hughes
Al Sipsclar	Cass		Zack
DISTRICT TWO
BSmith	BSmith		Al Sips
Winston Hughes			Montmorency
Visor	Visor		(Dice, Monty, Schema), Schema
Riedquat
DISTRICT THREE
Monstbro	atheotes		Schema
Atheotes
Dicetosser1
Fenn	atheotes
Montmorency	Atheotes		Winston Hughes

District Prospects:

District 1: Cass Rep, ??? Lynch (Cass invalid voting, 3 candidates).
District 2: ????????
District 3: Atheotes Rep, No Lynch (Atheotes not voting)

Pizza, at this rate we get a No Lynch.

[Montmorency]

Error: Row with Schema in District 1 missing, but Schema has not voted (or posted) yet.

[Cass_]

KK.

More thoughts wrt today's phase incoming then I'll ISO/make my decision.

Like I said to someone else, I already talked about this in the thread. If you want my reads on a dead guy, go find them. I'm not wasting my time on such a pointless inquiry.

It's not pointless, TLDR you pushed and voted a villager over a wolf, justifying the vote yesterday with a theory that he must've been a PR wolf which was ?; you say the way he went about pushing Visor was 'typically scummy' for Cuth and I disagree, having seen him do similar in Rappers as Town. Shutting down the conversation instead of justifying your POV here with specifics is NAGL.

so either I bussed my partners in thread unnecessarily and early

or I'm just town

There's a difference between bussing and saying 'Barto wolfy' and agreeing that Chox looked bad after Renata pointed it out, especially when your votes were never actually on those players D1, D2, D3.

before doing any re-reads or anything, just lazily going off my memory

zack
Zack

essentially mechanically clear
BSmith
Cass

essentially tonally clear
Visor
Monstr

i think they voted wolves when it mattered?
Jabbz
Atheotes
Dice (?)

lolcleared?
Monty

i don't think they fit in above categories?
Fenn
Schema
Riedquat
Al Sips
Winston

Are these in order/Is the bottom tier your WTL?

Is there a difference in 'tonally clear' and 'voted wolves' in the order of things for you/how do you arrange these town > scum when combined?

[Cass_]

I've been thinking a lot this game about how maybe I've been too quick to clear monstr because of heroes, but I didn't really pay attention to him in heroes since we were teammates, and I don't want to read heroes.

But I think he had no reason to defend cuth the way he did as a wolf and I hate it when people keep townreads in POE because of dumb fear about their skill.

Bold here is off in combination with linking scummonstr games and praise - encourages a fear you say is 'dumb'. Feels prepared/staged to me on readthrough. Possibility of Winston/Zack WW exists.

What alignment were both of you in Heroes and why would that make you too quick to clear monstr here?

Maybe atheotes is her scum partner and by taking the momentum away from tiebreaker he took the pressure of decisionmaking off her. All part of the cunning plan...

Atheotes was perfectly reasonable in his calculation, even if it wasn't strictly necessary to achieve his final objective. Just a slight difference from putting an extra vote on a winning wagon, and that difference is all the purer for the hypothetical mechanical efficacy here.

Intended sarcasm or no in the first post, I don't like the combination of these both acknowledging the same event and arguing it from both sides. Atheotes could be either, but I disagree with the second bold, especially since it occurred after the decision had been made public and an early hammer has the end result of perfect interference if scum - Timing and explanation not adding up leans that act to the scummier side here for me right now, but you playing both sides makes me hesitate.

TLDR Increases chance of Monty scum if atheotes Town.

[Cass_]

This game has been exhausting

:) :) :)

Vote: Schema

What do you make of (Csargo)/Fenn?

Tentative trust for monty, visor and Winston but that seems like an information rich group should any of them be scum, and I don't think it's possible for the three or any combination thereof to be scum, so I think it's much more likely they are all villagers. We'll see how that shakes out coming in to tomorrow

My reasoning on Barto was far from weak, and a quick iso proves that. The guy couldn't stop saying "make monstrman stop using the thread as his personal notepad" all over the thread, and yes he would have absolutely worded it differently if he was town

Just because you don't understand something that doesn't mean it doesn't make sense and it also doesn't mean that it's wrong or weak

I'll do my job as all villager regardless of where I'm put I was just hoping for more of a voice and it's frustrating because it feels like you're singling me out to lessen my impact on this game

Ily tho <3 I'm not mad I just really want to win

KK.

Considering Barto, it's possible I let the fake-feeling from his note-pad argument leak into my read of you in that situation/didn't adequately consider how much those comments would ping you if you're Town.

WRT Districts, I put you and Renata with me and made it very clear I was ok with either of you taking the role. I was watching what you did with it, but ultimately that's not limiting, that's a sign of tentative trust. This phase I put you D3 because ?atheotes and the other option was with me again (which you reversed on last phase) or D2, which is likely to be headed up by a claimed PR.

You can use your voice as much or as little as you want, and there's nothing to say you can't use your voice within a District just because you're not Rep?

All players should be speaking up within their Districts, pulling together a Town Core, trying to influence that vote/avoid the counter-influence from Scum. It's one of the reasons I've been advocating for representative votes by District Reps - more players get a say in where the District vote goes. You don't have to be the actual Rep to have a voice. So yeah, if you're sensing restriction, that's not at all the intention from me.

Just because I question my current lean of you and things that stand out to me about your play doesn't mean I don't have you likely Town, or that I'm trying to lessen your impact on the game - it means I have an eye on you/am trying to work with you to figure you and the rest of the game out.

What do you make of Visor's move on Dice? I can't shake the feeling he's being opportunistic/something isn't right.

Who's outside your Town core / in your WTL today?

What's your thought on

Me

Atheotes

Zack


and the lower posters aorn?

[Schema]

Dammit don't lynch me >.< scummy af late entrance, sorry for being AWOL. I need to catch up.

[Montmorency]

Atheotes could be either, but I disagree with the second bold, especially since it occurred after the decision had been made public and an early hammer has the end result of perfect interference if scum

I don't understand - what early hammer? What interference? As I said, it only makes scum if atheotes is running interference for you, just to confuse things a little. That's nothing to give credit to, however.

TLDR Increases chance of Monty scum if atheotes Town

But we already know Atheotes is town! Your sudden doubts can't change it.

[Schema]

Is EOD soon?

[atheotes]

Vote: atheotes

[atheotes]

Vote: Schema

[Zack]

it is pointless

of course it's in order

did you even read what i said about monstr? I have never said he was anything but town this game. I was defending his skill and honor.

[Schema]

Vote: Schema

Yes, yes, I know.

Just checked the timer.

[Cass_]

Sorry everyone, couple of pages behind! I do agree with you Cass, if townie I should be a bit better but I'm sucking bad at it, so if in doubt just lynch the lurker (me), better sooner than later, I think being replaced at this point isn't fair for the replacement just to suffer the burden of suspicion for my pathetic performance so far. ;)

At this point lurking isn't fair :P , regardless of your alignment, especially if you're Town. It's an internet yelling game, just work with the other players/put out more of your thoughts. Reads lists etc like #3178 are good, regardless of your alignment :P

Don't hate that list actually, but @Riedquat - YOLO - who's most trustworthy/most scummiest to you?

@cass do you want district authority or do you want someone else to have it? If you want it, you have my vote, if not I'd prefer to get your vote as I don't trust Schema to be town, and I don't trust Zack's judgement.

Vote: Schema for previously mentioned reasons.
Vote: Cass unless she doesn't want it.

It's more about who you want to be Rep and why :P but we need to consolidate if we're going to make a lynch.

You mentioned not liking Monty/Monstr yesterday, where are your thoughts on each of them today?
Thoughts on Al Sips/Csargo(Fenn) v Schema? I'm leaning in this direction though I don't think it's gonna be that easy.

What do you make of Visor/Dice?

[Montmorency]

For the record, I stand by my earlier evaluation that Cuth town makes Schema scum less likely.

[Cass_]

Sorry everyone, couple of pages behind! I do agree with you Cass, if townie I should be a bit better but I'm sucking bad at it, so if in doubt just lynch the lurker (me), better sooner than later, I think being replaced at this point isn't fair for the replacement just to suffer the burden of suspicion for my pathetic performance so far. ;)

At this point lurking isn't fair :P , regardless of your alignment, especially if you're Town. It's an internet yelling game, just work with the other players/put out more of your thoughts. Reads lists etc like #3178 are good, regardless of your alignment :P

Don't hate that list actually, but @Riedquat - YOLO - who's most trustworthy/most scummiest to you?

@cass do you want district authority or do you want someone else to have it? If you want it, you have my vote, if not I'd prefer to get your vote as I don't trust Schema to be town, and I don't trust Zack's judgement.

Vote: Schema for previously mentioned reasons.
Vote: Cass unless she doesn't want it.

It's more about who you want to be Rep and why :P but we need to consolidate if we're going to make a lynch.

You mentioned not liking Monty/Monstr yesterday, where are your thoughts on each of them today?
Thoughts on Al Sips/Csargo(Fenn) v Schema? I'm leaning in this direction though I don't think it's gonna be that easy.

What do you make of Visor/Dice?

You wot? You might as well ask for a dossier on all things Barto.

I'll give you townreads and scumreads from D2.

Start D2: Monstr kinda think El Barto villager; Monstr [town]leans Barto
Early D2: Cuth doesn't like Zack, GH, and Bart; Visor simple solution - GH/Cuth/Bart/Inactive; Visor says Bart and GH kinda wolfy
Late D2: If Cuth is wolf it clears Bart (who??)**; Winston uptrends El Barto; Visor suggests GH-Cuth-Schema, GH-Bart-Schema, Cuth/BSmith or inactive/GH; Cass still doesn't like Barto; Zack teams Cuth, Bart, and Jabbz, plus Bsmith to lesser extent; Visor suggests GH-Cuth-Schema, GH-Bart-Schema, Cuth/BSmith or inactive/GH; Cass still doesn't like Barto; Zack teams Cuth, Bart, and Jabbz, plus Bsmith to lesser extent;
Start D3: Zack suspect Cass-Chox-Cuth-Bart conspiracy; Fenn found GH null, Cuth scummier than Bart and worth a lynch;
Early D3: Riedquat likes Zack and Bart; Cuth says Bart is slightly towny; Renata wants Cuth lynched, then Bart, suspicious of Zack; Fenn wants Cuth, then Bart, lynched; atheotes can't look past Cuth and Barto; Monstr now (almost?) wants to lynch Bart (pp. 83-4); Monstr says Bart-Winston unlikely scum team for antipathy; Fenn has Bart, dicetosser, and Cuth as scum (though Cuth's lean posts were towny); Monstr says Fenn/barto/monty/Schema Yolo (Least confident in schema); Zack has Barto scum; dicetosser wants Barto lynch;
Late D3: Al Sips has scum Bart, Mont, Zack, BSmith, Cuth; Jabbz has Bart and Schema as scum, maybe Bsmith & Fenn;



**https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...post2053730819 ; https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...post2053730986

FTR I'm missing from D3 with WTL/top Scum Barto - with reasons. Not sure about anyone else.

Again, probably missing the EOD today.


I'm leaning town on Dice and Jabbz for lynching El Barto.

Visor is downgraded because of cases he pushed and votes he voted.

Not lynching:
Cass_
atheotes
Monstrbro
Winston Hughes
BSmith

Lean town:
dicetosser1
Jabbz

No idea:
Visor
Fenn
Schema
Riedquat

Ok to lynch:
Zack
Montmorency

Monty at least shows some effort, though I don't see how's he helping town. I think I have not yet played town with Monty, either of us was always a scum.
I'm not a fan of Zack's abrasive style. I don't feel like he wants to cooperate with town. I've been mindmelding/agreeing with everything Winston and Renata said about Zack.

Between Monty and Zack, I'll Vote: Zack first.

I can agree with Dice looking Towny from yesterday's lynch atp - it's consistent with his Town meta of making lynches go through, and with his read of Cuth.

I have to re-look/take a proper look at Zack and his WTL today.

What keeps Visor out of the lower tier for you if you don't like the cases he's pushed/his votes?

[Schema]

Listen, any townies present for EOD, I'm not a bad choice to lynch because I haven't been here and the low posters are easy to pick off. I'm a horrible choice if you want to actually lynch scum.

El Barto/Chox being low posters, it ain't looking good for me but whatever. If anyone wants to talk to me I'll be here through EOD.

[Schema]

For the record, I stand by my earlier evaluation that Cuth town makes Schema scum less likely.

Why are you saying this now?