Berlin this time

[Beskar]

I feel like the formulae is missing a step where the 'proposed solution' of those who want to 'stop it' involves 'burning down mosques', 'rounding up muslims into camps and deporting them', 'glassing the middle east', 'using naval ships to sink refugee boats', and 'build a massive concrete war with machine gun fortifications' to stop the refugees.

Then it goes to 7 where people are quite rightly calling those people lunatics and bigots for sentencing millions of people unfairly due to the actions of a handful of people. It is interesting what context can do to an argument when you ignore massive crucial aspects.

[Ronin]

I feel like the formulae is missing a step where the 'proposed solution' of those who want to 'stop it' involves 'burning down mosques', 'rounding up muslims into camps and deporting them', 'glassing the middle east', 'using naval ships to sink refugee boats', and 'build a massive concrete war with machine gun fortifications' to stop the refugees.

Then it goes to 7 where people are quite rightly calling those people lunatics and bigots for sentencing millions of people unfairly due to the actions of a handful of people. It is interesting what context can do to an argument when you ignore massive crucial aspects.

I would say that totally ignoring the impacts that this refugee influx is having also fails on a few massive crucial aspects.

if saying that deportations and the use of nuclear weapons falls on the same level to you.....ok

me, I would settle on stopping the influx and deportations, but hey, that's just me.

[Husar]

Main suspect is a pakistani immigrant that arrived last year.

Indeed, quote from your link:

The German authorities say they cannot be sure if a man in custody was behind Monday's lorry attack on a Berlin Christmas market that killed 12 people.
"We have to entertain the theory that the detainee might possibly not have been the perpetrator," federal prosecutor Peter Frank told reporters.

I would say that totally ignoring the impacts that this refugee influx is having also fails on a few massive crucial aspects.

if saying that deportations and the use of nuclear weapons falls on the same level to you.....ok

me, I would settle on stopping the influx and deportations, but hey, that's just me.

The influx is already stopped, or isn't it? Besides, what would have been a viable alternative strategy when they were already in Greece and Italy? Throw Italy and Greece out of the EU and build a wall around them fast? The German decision to take a share of the burden was as much a service to these two countries (as well as some other eastern countries that were whining about foreigners at their borders) as it was to the refugees one might think. As far as I'm aware there are now fences along those borders, Turkey was paid to hold them back and at least in the mainstream media I did not hear about millions more arriving lately. So how and where is the influx still going on officially?

[Greyblades]

The aformentioned uspect has just been released for lack of evidence.

if saying that deportations and the use of nuclear weapons falls on the same level to you.....ok
]

An unfair equivalence, one made all the more striking considering the moderate perspective beskar supports is currently responsible for a far higher bodycount in the last half century than the fringe views he uses as a strawman.

[Husar]

An unfair equivalence, one made all the more striking considering the moderate perspective beskar supports is currently responsible for a far higher bodycount in the last half century than the fringe views he uses as a strawman.

That is way too simplistic a statement to make anything of it. If you want to count bodies, I can give you plenty of things that cause a higher body count than islamic terrorism, much higher than "immigrant terrorism" and are "merely" byproducts of our way of life. If we want to go there, current islamic terrorism is by extension also just a byproduct of our way of life.

May I also ask you what solutions you would apply?

[Greyblades]

I wasnt referring to terrorism, I was referring to the damage the migrants have done to your nation over the last year alone;


https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/vi...QKXCs&hl=en_US

A deluge of murderers thieves rapists and paedophiles have snuck into europe in the guise of refugees, unfiltered by even the basic degree of border control, and its results have turned even the responsible Merkel's head.

You have a higher body count, a greater level of misery the men of straw you constantly dagger are responsoble for unleashing on our continent?
Then present it, or finally cease your endless evasion and whataboutery. The abominable infection your like invited and defend to the hilt is what is trying to destroy everything you love.

[Greyblades]

As for what I would suggest? Deportations.

Everyone who came illegally who cannot be identified as syrian get sent home, everyone who can be identified as syrian who isnt likely to be executed by assad you send back, those who will be executed give to whichever middle east nation that will take them.

Those that cant be fobbed off you keep under the condition that the first crime they commit will get them deported with the rest regardless of result.

[Husar]

I wasnt referring to terrorism, I was referring to the damage the migrants have done to your nation over the last year alone;


https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/vi...QKXCs&hl=en_US

A deluge of murderers thieves rapists and paedophiles have snuck into europe in the guise of refugees, unfiltered by even the basic degree of border control, and its results have turned even the responsible Merkel's head.

You have a higher body count, a greater level of misery the men of straw you constantly dagger are responsoble for unleashing on our continent?
Then present it, or finally cease your endless evasion and whataboutery. The abominable infection your like invited and defend to the hilt is what is trying to destroy everything you love.

That's the typical alt-right thinly veiled racist rhetoric that has no basis in reality:

https://en.qantara.de/content/refuge...ro-correlation

http://www.thelocal.de/20160610/why-...have-plummeted

“The statement comparing Germans and immigrants is stupid,” Wendt said. “You cannot make a blanket statement about refugees, who are many people coming from many different countries.

“There are people who never read the news and only look at Facebook, where they only get the impression that all crimes are committed by refugees… but that of course is not statistically true.

Your accusation at the end is way too generic once again, it is completely unclear what you are saying. So let me go with the two interpretations I can see:

1. You say I defend the crimes: Blatant lie and complete failure to get my point, more luck next time.

2. You are offended that I "defend to the hilt" refugees as a whole: Well, given that they are, as a group, about as guilty as any other group of 2 million people, I can only assume that you have a racist motivation to want me to hate all of them.

Pick your explanation...

As for the higher body count, that is supposedly normal with more inhabitants, what you fail to prove is that it is abnormally increased beyond an expected increase. I will even give you that it may be a bit higher statistically, but that is to be expected to some extent.
Your map from a crazy Facebook-group doesn't show jack as long as we don't know how high the crime rate was before the immigrants came, plus it is based on assumptions that the perpetrators were refugees or immigrants.
https://www.bka.de/SharedDocs/Downlo...cationFile&v=1
In 2014 the German police registered 6.082.064 crimes in Germany overall, just to put your numbers into perspective.
2.179 murders and "killings" (Totschlag in German, iirc when a killing was not planned ahead)
7.345 rapes and sexual assaults

Now you have all the variables, for example not every criminal in your statistic was necessarily a refugee and not every rape or sexual assault in Germany in 2014 was necessarily reported. For example because girls don't report their own father and so on.
The map you linked is also based on the media interpretations of some Facebook group, that alone disqualifies as a credible source for anything. The sarcastic headline and alt-right use of words don't help. But if you like maps, here is one for attacks on refugee homes:
http://www.ruhrnachrichten.de/storag...ion=1428420838
edit: And of course the "hoaxmap", a map of hoax reports of refugee crimes and other false allegations: http://hoaxmap.org
Are you sure none on your map appear on this one, too?
edit2: When I compared Pirna in Saxony, I noticed that there are cases of Romanians getting arrested for theft on your map. To count Romanians as "refugees" seems a bit odd, no?

As for your solution, people who are here illegally need to be found first, how would you go about that? Send the Gestapo to search all homes? Which Middle East nation has declared that it is ready to take anyone we want to send back? And did you know that sending people back to Syria would violate our own laws? We cannot send people back to a warzone, even the deportations to Afghanistan are highly controversial because the country isn't all that safe.

What I do agree with is that crimes should affect the asylum process, they currently do not or only in extreme cases. I do however wonder what you mean by "regardless of result"? Send them back even if they'll get killed? A bullet would be cheaper than an airplane ticket in that case... An execution (by proxy) for a theft seems unwarranted in any case.
The thing is that our asylum laws are somewhat work in progress due to the lack of attention they got for many years. That's not only true for those laws however, the rights of disabled people are also lagging behind a bit and so on. Such is the way of democracy.

[Greyblades]

That's the typical alt-right thinly veiled racist rhetoric that has no basis in reality:

https://en.qantara.de/content/refuge...ro-correlation

http://www.thelocal.de/20160610/why-...have-plummeted

That is the typical progressive left thinly veild reverse racist propaganda that has no basis in reality.

Ironic echo aside, both of those articles source from the same Bundeskriminalamt police statistics, statistics that havent been updated for 2016, the only information that the BKA provide of the refugee influx is of 2015 of which only three to four months had that influx. It is only when counting the immigrants reports of those months and comparing them to the entire year's rate of crime among the pre crisis population do they get that 20% statistic. At best it is a nice endorsment for the pre influx immigrants but tells us nothing about the behavior of those in this immigrant wave.

An article produced by the arm of the german foreign office and an san-fransico immigrant journalist's collumn, both based on the same skewed statistic and both decidedly disingenuous.

I am annoyed at @Seamus_Fermanagh; carrying the air of statistical authority but letting such a statistical mangling go unnoticed while attacking mine for not fulfilling an imagined intent.

For the intent I imagine you have: you dropped the ball.

Pick your explanation...

3. The mass of people, of which you have unfailingly attacked those who consider it a bad idea to import willy nilly, conceals a cuckoo bird egg that is trying to kill or corrupt you and your like.

As for the higher body count, that is supposedly normal with more inhabitants, what you fail to prove is that it is abnormally increased beyond an expected increase. I will even give you that it may be a bit higher statistically, but that is to be expected to some extent.
Your map from a crazy Facebook-group doesn't show jack as long as we don't know how high the crime rate was before the immigrants came, plus it is based on assumptions that the perpetrators were refugees or immigrants.
https://www.bka.de/SharedDocs/Downlo...cationFile&v=1
In 2014 the German police registered 6.082.064 crimes in Germany overall, just to put your numbers into perspective.
2.179 murders and "killings" (Totschlag in German, iirc when a killing was not planned ahead)
7.345 rapes and sexual assaults

Now you have all the variables, for example not every criminal in your statistic was necessarily a refugee and not every rape or sexual assault in Germany in 2014 was necessarily reported. For example because girls don't report their own father and so on.
The map you linked is also based on the media interpretations of some Facebook group, that alone disqualifies as a credible source for anything. The sarcastic headline and alt-right use of words don't help. But if you like maps, here is one for attacks on refugee homes:
http://www.ruhrnachrichten.de/storag...ion=1428420838
edit: And of course the "hoaxmap", a map of hoax reports of refugee crimes and other false allegations: http://hoaxmap.org
Are you sure none on your map appear on this one, too?
edit2: When I compared Pirna in Saxony, I noticed that there are cases of Romanians getting arrested for theft on your map. To count Romanians as "refugees" seems a bit odd, no?

You werent importing people en-mass from the middle east in 2014, I am capable of discriminating between pre and post crisis immigrants you know, do you?

Also at a single glance your hoax map supports my point: it is dwarfed by my map by two orders of magnitude, at least.

As for your solution, people who are here illegally need to be found first, how would you go about that? Send the Gestapo to search all homes? Which Middle East nation has declared that it is ready to take anyone we want to send back? And did you know that sending people back to Syria would violate our own laws? We cannot send people back to a warzone, even the deportations to Afghanistan are highly controversial because the country isn't all that safe.

It became too late to solve cleanly 12 months ago, your nation will pay the cost and suffer this for years, whether it is suffered with your conscience or your people's blood and tears is up to you.

This is my suggestion: do what the normans did when they took england: have a census. Domesday book germany, kick out those who cannot be proven legally or genetically native and hang juncker by his nipples from the Brandenburg gate.

Ok the last one isnt a serious suggestion, a man can dream

What I do agree with is that crimes should affect the asylum process, they currently do not or only in extreme cases. I do however wonder what you mean by "regardless of result"? Send them back even if they'll get killed? A bullet would be cheaper than an airplane ticket in that case... An execution (by proxy) for a theft seems unwarranted in any case.

Then give them to whoever doesnt consider thier actions a crime, I hear qatar is very accepting of rape and loves cheap labour with nowhere else to go, failing that dump them on the somali coast, some of those that abuse our hospitality have been calling our governments tyrannical, it would be poetic for them to enjoy the hospitality of actual tyrants.

The thing is that our asylum laws are somewhat work in progress due to the lack of attention they got for many years. That's not only true for those laws however, the rights of disabled people are also lagging behind a bit and so on. Such is the way of democracy.

No, such is the way of napoleonic civil law, English common law would update itself as issues arise, as PVC would tell you.

[Gilrandir]

The sarcastic headline and alt-right use of words don't help. .

That will be seen when we come to know how much support AfD will have picked in the upcoming elections.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

I wasnt referring to terrorism, I was referring to the damage the migrants have done to your nation over the last year alone;


https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/vi...QKXCs&hl=en_US

A deluge of murderers thieves rapists and paedophiles have snuck into europe in the guise of refugees, unfiltered by even the basic degree of border control, and its results have turned even the responsible Merkel's head.

You have a higher body count, a greater level of misery the men of straw you constantly dagger are responsoble for unleashing on our continent?
Then present it, or finally cease your endless evasion and whataboutery. The abominable infection your like invited and defend to the hilt is what is trying to destroy everything you love.

This kind of snapshot is a poor use of statistics. At a minimum, you would need comparative figures for a similar swath of the general population and then some anova work to note a statistically significant difference.

[Beskar]

if saying that deportations and the use of nuclear weapons falls on the same level to you.....ok

I was merely quoting actual statements I have personally heard on the internet and advocated by people in real life. I did not list them in any order of significance. But given the nature of the statements, I still feel my statement about 'Missing Step' being justified as inciting the response of the 7th step.

Though, in response to Greyblades, I wasn't actually establishing a strawman. I never labeled a group of people and attributed these to them, I said "These are the types of statements people say to incite comments of being called a bigot and a racist". Given the nature of the statements, it is not surprising that they might incite these type of responses from people, though usually these people go unchallenged as they tend to be known for being rather loudmouthed and opinionated anyway, and they are 'tolerated' due to other attributes or aspects, such as being family members, work colleagues, and so on.

Strawman would be more closely aligned with your comment, Greyblades. Given I haven't actually stated my position, but apparently it is a moderate perspective and responsible for a large bodycount. I am rather amused by this assertion.

[Greyblades]

I was merely quoting actual statements I have personally heard on the internet and advocated by people in real life. I did not list them in any order of significance. But given the nature of the statements, I still feel my statement about 'Missing Step' being justified as inciting the response of the 7th step.

Though, in response to Greyblades, I wasn't actually establishing a strawman. I never labeled a group of people and attributed these to them, I said "These are the types of statements people say to incite comments of being called a bigot and a racist". Given the nature of the statements, it is not surprising that they might incite these type of responses from people, though usually these people go unchallenged as they tend to be known for being rather loudmouthed and opinionated anyway, and they are 'tolerated' due to other attributes or aspects, such as being family members, work colleagues, and so on.

Strawman would be more closely aligned with your comment, Greyblades. Given I haven't actually stated my position, but apparently it is a moderate perspective and responsible for a large bodycount. I am rather amused by this assertion.

Do not weasel this beskar I do not have the patience for you, you clearly said:

the 'proposed solution' of those who want to 'stop it' involves 'burning down mosques', 'rounding up muslims into camps and deporting them', 'glassing the middle east', 'using naval ships to sink refugee boats', and 'build a massive concrete war with machine gun fortifications' to stop the refugees.

The most lenient interpretation is a straw man; in this case an assertion based on a fringe but applied to the whole and your denial it is almost as large an insult to my reading comprehension as your customary passive agressive retort will likely be.

This kind of snapshot is a poor use of statistics. At a minimum, you would need comparative figures for a similar swath of the general population and then some anova work to note a statistically significant difference.

You would be correct if not for the fact that I was using this not to establish the level of crime compared to locals but to exhibit the weight of wrongs inflicted on the same native population. That picture was taken in June and is of the map linked below the image, this is the map in december:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Weighty enough for any who havent completely nailed thier colours to the multicultural mast.

Speaking of which I'll get to husar's wall of projection in my next post.

[Kralizec]

This is terrible. I mean the 9 deaths, of course.

That people are -again- using this badmouth a huge group of people who've fled their wartorn homes isn't terrible, it's just sad. I don't care for islam as a religion (goes against too many of my personal values), but they're human beings and they have every right to apply for asylum. That there are quite a few rotten apples in the group is a serious problem, but that does not detract from the rights that these people as individuals have.

For the record, I think it's foremost the responsibility of nearby safe countries to house these refugees and I don't think that being a refugee should entitle you to free choice where to settle. But that's something to be decided and implemented on an international level. Lashing out against refugees is just spiteful and pointless.

[Sarmatian]

This is, of course, true, because not just anyone can stick a pin on a google map.

[Greyblades]

This is, of course, true, because not just anyone can stick a pin on a google map.

Each comes with a link to a crime, you can go through them yourself and verify, if you can read german of course.

[Pannonian]

This is terrible. I mean the 9 deaths, of course.

That people are -again- using this badmouth a huge group of people who've fled their wartorn homes isn't terrible, it's just sad. I don't care for islam as a religion (goes against too many of my personal values), but they're human beings and they have every right to apply for asylum. That there are quite a few rotten apples in the group is a serious problem, but that does not detract from the rights that these people as individuals have.

For the record, I think it's foremost the responsibility of nearby safe countries to house these refugees and I don't think that being a refugee should entitle you to free choice where to settle. But that's something to be decided and implemented on an international level. Lashing out against refugees is just spiteful and pointless.

I did find the description of the arrested man a bit curious though: a Pakistani refugee. I didn't know they existed. I went on a Pakistani forum to see their view on it. They didn't know they existed either.

[Kralizec]

I did find the description of the arrested man a bit curious though: a Pakistani refugee. I didn't know they existed. I went on a Pakistani forum to see their view on it. They didn't know they existed either.

There are a few situations where a Pakistani man can legitimately claim asylum elsewhere (people who've been accused of blasphemy stand a good chance of getting lynched, for example) but I imagine that most of them are fake. Just like the ones from Morocco or Algeria.

The proper term should be 'asylum seeker/applicant'.