Effectiveness of musketeers

[edyzmedieval]

... same question as in the M2TW forum.

Are musketeers here any good? Any useful properties to them? I know hand gunners aren't of much use, but what about arquebusiers/musketeers?

[macsen rufus]

Properly used they can be effective, their main benefit being the morale hit they cause. I tend to only use them for defensive battles, and leave them for reinforcements in a BIG battle, when they will be dealing with the second wave (or later..) enemy reinforcements, by which time morale is more of an issue (for the enemy) than pure casualties. All this assumes my opening forces survive the first onslaught, of course

They are also quite good for bridge defence battles, again for the morale hit.

Tactically, I prefer to put them somewhere relatively 'safe' - ie good melee troops flanking them, or if they can find the ground then the arquebusiers can go behind and shoot overhead. Usually I will have them in hold formation to stop them skirmishing around (which is why I like to give them flankers...) and set them to NOT fire-at-will. Instead, I let the enemy get within range and then I toggle fire-at-will ON to ensure a good solid volley for all arquebus units at once - this maximises the ballsitic and morale effects and often causes attackers to rout.

They're especially good for bridge defence if you have a unit either side of the bridge and do the same 'wait til you see the whites of their eyes' tactic. IIRC arquebusiers have armour-piercing shot so they are really good against halbardiers with their brittle morale, and can whittle down tougher units like Chiv Foot Knights quite well.

They are considerably better than handguns, with longer range, and not damped by rain - maybe not so good in melee (long while since I played vanilla, so all IIRC, of course). Handguns aren't totally useless, you can use them for similar purposes with similar tactics (maybe have them in 'engage at will' rather than 'hold formation', as they are slightly competent swordsmen, too) - they do require a tad more micromanagement due to shorter range, though.

[edyzmedieval]

Comprehensive post, thank you macsen.

So technically, you use them only as flank weapons. Any special arquebusiers? Any faction that has particular bonuses for them?

[macsen rufus]

Any special arquebusiers? Any faction that has particular bonuses for them?

There's just the one flavour of arquebusiers in vanilla, and I don't recall any faction bonuses... but then it's a long while since I last played the unmodded game

[Trapped in Samsara]

Hi

I have found that HandGunners can be quite useful when in woods acting as a skirmisher screen in front of something like Militia Sergeants or Halbs.

In that terrain the HGs are decent enough in a melee to take on most missile troops and cavalry, and they can exchange fire and prevent your melee line from being peppered to death.

In open terrain, however, HGs just don't cut the mustard. I find Arquebusiers are very useful in the later stages of big, long battles. I often deploy them in extended order as skirmishers in front of, say, Mounted Sergeants. If anything gets too close the Arqs fall back and your cav charge.

The Arqs slow rate of fire is actually an advantage in an extended engagement.

Best regards
VictorGB

Sapere aude
Horace

[edyzmedieval]

But can they be used as an effective front, at least a mainstay of the army? In M2TW, with some training, you could field a good arquebusier/musketeers army and do significant damage, but only in the very late period of the game. (last 25 years)

[macsen rufus]

I haven't tried doing it - by the end of the game I usually have built up various field armies to match the tactics I prefer for whichever faction I'm playing, and optimised for that.

But of course, with MTW if you throw in enough upgrades (armour, weapons, valour and morale and kickass generals) then the differences between troop types get smoothed out, as does the usual vulnerability of a less balanced force

[Trapped in Samsara]

Hi Edzymedieval

If you mean can vanilla Arqs be counted upon to function as a frontline melee force allowing you to dispense with spears/swords/polearms, the answer is no, IMHO.

Obviously, if you're fielding massively upgraded Arqs under a demigod general they can do well, but straight out of the box so to speak, they cannot be counted upon to hold the line.

Best regards
VictorGB

Sapere aude
Horace

[LordK9]

You'll have to wait until they invent the bayonet. :)

[edyzmedieval]

I was thinking more along the lines of - can they do significant damage if they're put forward in a line, with obvious sword/spear backup? Lets say 6 units of arquebusiers, front line, fire until the enemy engages.

Works well? Or are you better of with experienced longbowmen or Trebizond Archers?

And yes, the bayonet... the most important thing in ETW is to research the ring bayonet as quickly as possible, allowing you to melee and to fire.

[LordK9]

I rarely build them so I can't say for sure but I've tried armies that were 3/4 archers (the historic amount for the period with English armies) and they did a heck of a lot of damage and generally won the fights as long as there were some troops to take care of the heavy cavalry that survived. I think (but am not sure) that the gun powder weapons take longer to fire then arrows though but I'd assume that with their armor penetration, it may just work.

[Trapped in Samsara]

Hi Edzy

In my experience, Arqs have too slow a rate of fire to be ideal for withstanding the initial wave. They come into their own later in the engagement, when the enemy's morale has been shaken, and his attacks are more piecemeal.

My preferred/typical opening deployment when defending has four to six archers in a (2 x 2 or 2 x 3) block behind a spearwall. I turn fire at will off, wait until the enemy general is within range, and then target the hell out of him with a massive volley of (hopefully) deadly shafts. Alternatively, I order my archers to concentrate their fire on one or two high threat units in the enemy's front line.

By the way, I am a nothing special general. So I make no great claims for the above. In fact I would describe my overall style of play as Medieval: Total Bean Counter. Money makes the world go 'round. Florins bring you power and victory.

Best regards
VictorGB

Saper aude
Horace