Trump Thread

[Montmorency]

Trump demonstrably sharp

Is he though?

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Is he though?

Too effective at deals and business management not to be. Not a genius or near genius (the claims of a 151 IQ have been debunked), by any means, and his 'pit everyone against each other' management style is causing trouble, but he isn't stupid.

[Montmorency]

Too effective at deals and business management not to be. Not a genius or near genius (the claims of a 151 IQ have been debunked), by any means, and his 'pit everyone against each other' management style is causing trouble, but he isn't stupid.

Is he effective at deals and business management? Well, we can see that he is effective at branding...

(As an aside, I would be suspicious in principle of any linearization of "success" with "intelligence", since it's routinely used by the powerful to excuse themselves.)

It's not just his words and spech... I can't recall even temporary political advantage resulting from something Trump has clearly initiated himself (even narrowly defined among Trump's base) as opposed to being a course of action announced by his administration (where his advisors and cabinet and the last person to speak t o him are often reported to be more influential in timing and content). (Here's Hitler at least sounding coherent.)

Comey's impression of Trump's intelligence:

“I don’t buy this stuff about him being mentally incompetent or early stages of dementia,” Comey said. “He strikes me as a person of above average intelligence who’s tracking conversations and knows what’s going on. I don’t think he’s medically unfit to be president. I think he’s morally unfit to be president. A person who sees moral equivalence in Charlottesville, who talks about and treats women like they’re pieces of meat, who lies constantly about matters big and small and insists the American people believe it, that person’s not fit to be president of the United States, on moral grounds. And that’s not a policy statement. Again, I don’t care what your views are on guns or immigration or taxes.”

You still have someone with a demonstrable inability to connect causes with consequences, or at least a lack of intellectual flexibility to match behavior to desirable or undesirable consequences. In the triad of impairment, disability, and dysfunction (sometimes handicap), Trump is objectively dysfunctional behaviorally and arguably cognitively. The other categories are more difficult to establish, but this much is blatant.

Intelligence is a frighteningly slippery concept, but in what confidence could you place this guy if you know him? Not with your money, not with sweeping your floors...

You could claim that he has an instinct for hurting or manipulating people, but as the above suggests on a large scale this is more a byproduct of his flailing than a calculated effort. His one and only sensitivity, gathered from all the secondhand reports about how he acts in a room of people: he's perceptive about power dynamics and relationships between individuals, in the sense that it's salient to him when he isn't the center gravity. He hones in on what people like about it, while more or less eliding what they dislike. He knows how to wield favor and humiliation in his circles. He's conscious of his paradoxical role to the news media overall, that symbiosis. I don't know what you call it.

In other words, he's a troglodyte. I think he's closer to your standard idiot than idiot-savant.

He is definitely not more intelligent than an "average" person, assuming I have a good baseline for average people.

[Husar]

Too effective at deals and business management not to be.

Where do you take this from? Why did his casino go bankrupt if he is such a great manager? And what are the awesome deals he made so far?
To me he looks more like the proof that any idiot can become richer if he is born with the right privilege and completely ruthless.

IIRC he lied to the Forbes people to get onto their list and then proved his wealth with that fake statistic to get loans from banks. I don't think anyone can do that and having had the name Trump and the wealth of his father in his back is probably what made people not check this thoroughly enough. If my name showed up in the top 50 Forbes list of richest people tomorrow, I kinda doubt a bank would accept that as proof of my wealth. Just as I doubt Forbes would fall for my lies in the first place. In his case he lied to a Forbes reporter telling him the entire wealth of his father was now his.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlo...=.112a24583203

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Lying effectively and gaming a system effectively, Husar, are not signs of intellectual shortcomings but, as Monty alluded to using Comey's quotation, moral and ethical shortcomings.

I am unwavering in my assessment of Trump as an asshat, I merely refuse to fall down the "I think he is an asshat so everything he is and has ever done must be evil, all of his ideas must be stupid, all of his supposed successes must have been faked, etc." rabbithole. It is akin to Stalin lifting Trotsky out of all the photos in order to make a fabrication real and far too much of here's what I think so now let's interpret everything based on my view is a "given." Look at each action and effort item by item and credit what is done well and damn what is done poorly. There are more than enough of the latter in my opinion.

Trump should be assessed on what he does in the office and how well he does it. Reviews, so far, are mixed at best.

I have supported the GOP with few exceptions since the 1970s. I have to actively consider voting for whatever yahoo the Dems put up -- who will likely be a big government is the only way crazy, given the current polarization in our politics -- to keep the asshat from demeaning the office further. Galling.

[Montmorency]

Lying effectively and gaming a system effectively, Husar, are not signs of intellectual shortcomings but, as Monty alluded to using Comey's quotation, moral and ethical shortcomings. I am unwavering in my assessment of Trump as an asshat, I merely refuse to fall down the "I think he is an asshat so everything he is and has ever done must be evil, all of his ideas must be stupid, all of his supposed successes must have been faked, etc." It is akin to Stalin lifting Trotsky out of all the photos in order to make a fabrication real. Look at them item by item and credit what is done well and damn what is done poorly.

Trump should be assessed on what he does in the office and how well he does it. Reviews, so far, are mixed at best.

But what has he done well (holistically in life)? He lies by volume, not effectiveness.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

But what has he done well (holistically in life)? He lies by volume, not effectiveness.

I edited my post. You were too quick and are responding to the abridged version.

Nothing he has ever done is right, nothing worked, he always was wrong, it was all given too him, he only knows how to shout louder whether it is whining or crying, he is the font of all evil, the bastard is responsible for us losing the Vietnam war, he was probably the thug in the crowd hired by the Pharisees to get them stirred up enough for Pilate to crucify Jesus.

With that mantra we can now close the thread. Why bother going through the particulars when the decision is cast in stone already.

[Montmorency]

I understand it is difficult to conceive of any particulars, but that is what I'm asking.

Although an aside again: why would you support the Republicans if you don't like "big government is the only way"? Any alleged distinction against the Democrats here is so marginal that without considering any other factors you would be obliged to give Republican and Democratic candidates an equal hearing.

[Husar]

Lying effectively and gaming a system effectively, Husar, are not signs of intellectual shortcomings but, as Monty alluded to using Comey's quotation, moral and ethical shortcomings.

I am unwavering in my assessment of Trump as an asshat, I merely refuse to fall down the "I think he is an asshat so everything he is and has ever done must be evil, all of his ideas must be stupid, all of his supposed successes must have been faked, etc." rabbithole. It is akin to Stalin lifting Trotsky out of all the photos in order to make a fabrication real and far too much of here's what I think so now let's interpret everything based on my view is a "given." Look at each action and effort item by item and credit what is done well and damn what is done poorly. There are more than enough of the latter in my opinion.

Trump should be assessed on what he does in the office and how well he does it. Reviews, so far, are mixed at best.

I have supported the GOP with few exceptions since the 1970s. I have to actively consider voting for whatever yahoo the Dems put up -- who will likely be a big government is the only way crazy, given the current polarization in our politics -- to keep the asshat from demeaning the office further. Galling.

You're wrong about my point and you're also not answering my question anywhere as Monty also pointed out.
My point is not that lying makes him stupid, but that him gaining his welath via lies does not make him a great manager, it says more about the failure of others to check his statements. I don't count gaming the system as a great management skill just like being able to type god mode into a console does not make you the best shooter player deserving of the ESL top prize for whatever league.

His statements, the logic he displays in public and most other indicators do not make me think he is particularly clever. Maybe not stupid either, but certainly not clever. Yet you state you believe him to be a great businessman and a great dealmaker. So I ask you to name some examples where he managed a business very well or made a great deal, before he became president.

If your only argument in favor of him being a great dealmaker is "let's wait and see what he still does as president", you're also doing the cumquad hoc propter somethingorother by claiming he already is a great dealmaker before you know of even a single great deal he made.

Just name two or three concrete examples of great deals he made before he was elected president. There have to be some, or the claim is simply empty.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

You're wrong about my point and you're also not answering my question anywhere as Monty also pointed out.
My point is not that lying makes him stupid, but that him gaining his welath via lies does not make him a great manager, it says more about the failure of others to check his statements. I don't count gaming the system as a great management skill just like being able to type god mode into a console does not make you the best shooter player deserving of the ESL top prize for whatever league.

His statements, the logic he displays in public and most other indicators do not make me think he is particularly clever. Maybe not stupid either, but certainly not clever. Yet you state you believe him to be a great businessman and a great dealmaker. So I ask you to name some examples where he managed a business very well or made a great deal, before he became president.

If your only argument in favor of him being a great dealmaker is "let's wait and see what he still does as president", you're also doing the cumquad hoc propter somethingorother by claiming he already is a great dealmaker before you know of even a single great deal he made.

Just name two or three concrete examples of great deals he made before he was elected president. There have to be some, or the claim is simply empty.

I said effective, not great. Great are things like the Camp David Accords, Nixon's efforts with the PRC, Google buying Doubleclick and YouTube...None of Trump's deals rise to those levels. Trump did take himself from the verge of bankruptcy (his fault) to a turnaround that totals in the billions (also his fault). Bill Gates or Warren Buffet good? Hell no.

[Husar]

I said effective, not great. Great are things like the Camp David Accords, Nixon's efforts with the PRC, Google buying Doubleclick and YouTube...None of Trump's deals rise to those levels. Trump did take himself from the verge of bankruptcy (his fault) to a turnaround that totals in the billions (also his fault). Bill Gates or Warren Buffet good? Hell no.

That still doesn't prove him an effective manager. Plenty of gurus just scam the right gullible people and become rich that way, that doesn't mean you could give them a well-run company tomorrow and watch them succeed.