Trump Thread

[Xiahou]

I'm still in "wait and see" mode on Trump. Most anything that comes out of his mouth or Twitter feed are pure idiocy, but so far, I like a good many of the policies that he's been pushing in practice (not in word). Rolling back Obama's regulatory overreach is good. Fast-tracking long stalled environmental reviews of pipelines is good. Limiting government funding of abortion is good. Even the temporary immigration ban/increased vetting isn't terrible on it's face- though it's implementation appears to be rather incompetent.

I find if I actually look at what Trump's doing and ignore whatever is coming out of his mouth, he's actually ok so far. Though, I tend to think it may be due more to the advisors he is delegating power to, than through his own action/ideas. Because, I still think he's a twit.

[Husar]

And Hus the death camps were not in existence before WW2, not at least in the form they operated after 1942. If we go to down that slippery slope with hindsight and make wrong decisions, which could create something even more horrible, who takes the responsibility for those mistakes, or will it just be a shrug and "we tried"...

Yes about the camps, but I thought the appeasement policy was widely seen as a huge failure? Would you say it was the only right thing to do?

I'm still in "wait and see" mode on Trump. Most anything that comes out of his mouth or Twitter feed are pure idiocy, but so far, I like a good many of the policies that he's been pushing in practice (not in word). Rolling back Obama's regulatory overreach is good. Fast-tracking long stalled environmental reviews of pipelines is good. Limiting government funding of abortion is good. Even the temporary immigration ban/increased vetting isn't terrible on it's face- though it's implementation appears to be rather incompetent.

How exactly has Trump rolled back regulatory overreach by issuing one presidential decree after the other? Maybe I missed one.
Didn't he regulate the borders far more? Then he also regulated lobbying, tries to regulate outsourcing and offshoring efforts, etc.

[Husar]

As for the whole "the cabinet will mellow him", "he can't do anything without the parliament" and so on, according to this German article, people said the exact same things about Hitler when he was made chancellor...

http://www.zeit.de/2017/05/adolf-hit...nung-jahrestag

Other quotes include "I got Hindenburg's trust, in two weeks we'll have cornered him that he squeams" and that Hitler would now have to prove "that he is capable of being a statesman". Many people also saw him as a puppet of other actors such as vice chancellor von Papen.

Of course I have no idea why or how any of that could be relevant for this thread.

[Xiahou]

How exactly has Trump rolled back regulatory overreach by issuing one presidential decree after the other? Maybe I missed one.

Maybe you did miss one.

There's also the plan to use CRAs to roll back many of Obama's "midnight" regulations that he rolled out last month. This is good.

[Kagemusha]

Yes about the camps, but I thought the appeasement policy was widely seen as a huge failure? Would you say it was the only right thing to do?

When Germany remilitarized Rhineland during 1936 the WW1 Allied powers gained a casus belli against Nazi Germany. After a clear violation of a international treaty, there was no need for an preemptive strike. The cause for war against Germany was there, but the Western allies did not use it. So those circumstances really dont apply as example of preemptive forceful regime change conducted by an external power.

Of course this is a complicated issue and there is no simple answer, but how i see it. If you meddle with internal affairs of others without their consent the responsibility concerning the outcome lies with you afterwards.

[Husar]

Lord love a duck. The tone of these posts suggests that impeachment would fall short, and that summary execution for thought crimes is the only acceptable measure for Trump.


CHILL....he is just another occupant of the oval. No need to check the scalp for tattoos.

Again, they said the same thing about Hitler, see Monty's video as well in that regard.
Saying the goal of protesters is somehow execution or something like that is a strawman or whatever you call it, I'm pretty sure most of them would be okay with Trump being less extreme as a result of public pressure for example. Public pressure usually doesn't come from shutting up though. When Obama got elected he was declared the antichrist as well and people said he would come to prosecute them for owning guns etc., so in a way it's just typical partisan American behavior and you should just chill as well.
Now you may wonder why I made the Hitler comparison then, well:
1. It's funny for me.
2. Trump actually did announce plenty of outrageous things and seems to show more authoritarian behavior than Obama. And then I trust some of his supporters and especially that Bannon-dude even less than Trump himself. That he raised Bannon to such important positions is what I'd find worrying. I wouldn't even think of Bannon-dude as a mellowing force in his cabinet, more like a stirring one... And Trump removed some experienced generals from permanent positions, they might have been mellowing forces...

Remember when Hitler put the extremists in all the important positions?

So much fuzz not enough facts.

That would seem like an uninterrupted continuation from Trump's election campaign then...

When Germany remilitarized Rhineland during 1936 the WW1 Allied powers gained a casus belli against Nazi Germany. After a clear violation of a international treaty, there was no need for an preemptive strike. The cause for war against Germany was there, but the Western allies did not use it. So those circumstances really dont apply as example of preemptive forceful regime change conducted by an external power.

Of course this is a complicated issue and there is no simple answer, but how i see it. If you meddle with internal affairs of others without their consent the responsibility concerning the outcome lies with you afterwards.

Preemptive regime change sounds weird. Iraq was said to be a preemptive strike because Iraq was supposedly planning a strike with its WMDs and was supposedly harboring terrorists. The regime change was more of a by-product in the official narrative IIRC. While there may have been doubts about the WMDs and the terrorism ties at the time, there was obviously sufficient support to make them go ahead.

And yes, it's a complicated issue because trade can already be seen as meddling in other peoples' affairs. If Trump punishes corporations for building or operating factories in Mexico, how is he not meddling with Mexican affairs? He's actively destroying jobs in Mexico and Mexico cannot realistically hope to do anything about it other than symbolic measures.

[Xiahou]

Trump actually did announce plenty of outrageous things and seems to show more authoritarian behavior than Obama.

It's all perspective, I'm afraid. Obama did more to consolidate power in the presidency and to weaken the other branches of government. He just got better PR.

Many constitutional scholars and politicians on the right have spent the last eight years rallying against the Obama presidency, arguing that he had overstepped his powers, especially with regard to national security.

But this is now likely to yield to protests from the left, with the same criticisms applying to Trump.

“For eight years Republicans have complained that the presidency was too powerful, that President Obama ruled like a dictator, and that the powers of the presidency needed to be curbed,” Nichols said. “My guess is that they’re not going to be very serious about that principle.”

With the shoe on the other foot, the left may soon realize how terrifying some of the president’s authorities can be.

“If you are concerned about overreach of executive authority, and the only thing that was keeping your concerns at bay was that President Obama had that authority… [it’s] going to come back to bite people in the rear, because now a President Trump will rely on those same authorities,” said Bradley Moss, a lawyer specializing in national security law.

Call me when Trump prosecutes a war without congressional approval or orders the death of American citizens without judicial review. Then we'll be onto something. Most of the anti-Trump theatrics thus far, look too much like naked partisanship. It's ok if my guy does it, but if the other guy does it he's Hitler 2.0. Trump's executive overreach hasn't come near Obama's yet. And I don't want him to go as far as Obama did. I didn't vote for Trump, and if he abuses his power as badly, I won't vote for him next time either. But we survived Obama and we'll survive Trump too.

[Montmorency]

It's all perspective, I'm afraid. Obama did more to consolidate power in the presidency and to weaken the other branches of government. He just got better PR.

Call me when Trump prosecutes a war without congressional approval or orders the death of American citizens without judicial review. Then we'll be onto something. Most of the anti-Trump theatrics thus far, look too much like naked partisanship. It's ok if my guy does it, but if the other guy does it he's Hitler 2.0. Trump's executive overreach hasn't come near Obama's yet. And I don't want him to go as far as Obama did. I didn't vote for Trump, and if he abuses his power as badly, I won't vote for him next time either. But we survived Obama and we'll survive Trump too.

Ironically, you and others IMO end up conflating the Presidency and the Executive. The latter has increased its ambit over national security, but the POTUS itself is still much weaker than during the mid-century. Now, admittedly there is indeed scope for a sitting POTUS to take advantage of the growth of his department to work toward conjoining the two, to consolidate power away from party consensus rule, and to exercise personal authority over increasingly-fine matters - but this has not been the case for generations. Obama did not buck the trend, and I believe Trump is not doing and will not do so, regardless of his conceits or the indignation of his opponents.

Concisely: the indirect power of POTUS in the world (coercive, that is) has increased, but the direct power of POTUS in the US government has decreased. Moreover, the former is more an outcome of technological factors and the nature of contemporary conflicts than any mechanical developments in law.

That's my line and I'm sticking to it.

[Kagemusha]

Preemptive regime change sounds weird. Iraq was said to be a preemptive strike because Iraq was supposedly planning a strike with its WMDs and was supposedly harboring terrorists. The regime change was more of a by-product in the official narrative IIRC. While there may have been doubts about the WMDs and the terrorism ties at the time, there was obviously sufficient support to make them go ahead.

Yes.People believed the lies of the "agressive regime". I am not sure did the neocons themselves had any idea what they were about to do, or just more likely exited to just do something with their power.

And yes, it's a complicated issue because trade can already be seen as meddling in other peoples' affairs. If Trump punishes corporations for building or operating factories in Mexico, how is he not meddling with Mexican affairs? He's actively destroying jobs in Mexico and Mexico cannot realistically hope to do anything about it other than symbolic measures.

Thankfully long past are the days of Mercantilism. Trump can punish corporations in US and that is it. Will that happen is a completely other story, but then i am not sure how well the real estate businessman understands the global economy, at least the analyst are terrified what will happen, but that seems to be their default reaction to anything these days.

[CrossLOPER]

I'm still in "wait and see" mode on Trump.

Saying this at this point is like hoping that the train brakes will kick in while the train is still going 30 kph and about 20 feet away.

Most anything that comes out of his mouth or Twitter feed are pure idiocy, but so far, I like a good many of the policies that he's been pushing in practice (not in word).

Like banning people from entire nations from immigrating, devaluing protections of the environment and protected groups and fuck knows what else?

Rolling back Obama's regulatory overreach is good.

How? With an avalanche of unconstitutional reforms focused solely on making the US dirtier, meaner and more isolated and repressed?

Fast-tracking long stalled environmental reviews of pipelines is good.

Pipelines leak. A lot.

Limiting government funding of abortion is good.

Limiting availability of services to vulnerable groups is heinous.

Even the temporary immigration ban/increased vetting isn't terrible on it's face- though it's implementation appears to be rather incompetent.

Incompetent is a mild way to put it. Terminally retarded is a much better description. It does absolutely nothing positive and solves no problems. It created a massive amount of problems and is rapidly eradicating any positive view of the US.

I find if I actually look at what Trump's doing and ignore whatever is coming out of his mouth, he's actually ok so far. Though, I tend to think it may be due more to the advisors he is delegating power to, than through his own action/ideas. Because, I still think he's a twit.

He is CONSOLIDATING power into as few people as possible and his agents are threatening dissenting opinions. "Getting with the program" and "taking names" are thinly veiled threats that precede authoritarian moves.

Maybe you did miss one.

How in the fuck do you decide what a regulation is or what it includes? This is going to work out great.

Replacing:
Regulation 1: Org must do A.
Regulation 2: Org must do B.

Enacting:
Regulation 3: Org must do A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, I...

There's also the plan to use CRAs to roll back many of Obama's "midnight" regulations that he rolled out last month. This is good.

Too bad it is going to be used against pollution regulations.

Fuck yeah Beijing skies!

[Xiahou]

Saying this at this point is like hoping that the train brakes will kick in while the train is still going 30 kph and about 20 feet away.

Ok...

Pipelines leak. A lot.

Not as much as railcars, tanker trucks or ships. They also explode a lot more than pipelines. A lot more.

Limiting availability of services to vulnerable groups is heinous.

Murdering defenseless children is heinous.

Incompetent is a mild way to put it. Terminally retarded is a much better description. It does absolutely nothing positive and solves no problems. It created a massive amount of problems and is rapidly eradicating any positive view of the US.

Incompetent in that it was rolled out with little to no warning for the agencies tasked with implementing it and then issuing contradictory statements on what to do with current visa/green card holders... first let them back in, then not, then let them back in. I guess they got it right 2/3 of the time.

He is CONSOLIDATING power into as few people as possible and his agents are threatening dissenting opinions. "Getting with the program" and "taking names" are thinly veiled threats that precede authoritarian moves.

Not so different from Obama's prosecution of whistleblowers and spying on members of the press, huh? See, this is a problem I have with the media and liberals in regards to Trump. They're completely losing their minds- the level of signal to noise is completely out off the charts. I think it's only a matter of time before Trump does something truly reprehensible- but with all the partisans wailing, gnashing their teeth and rending their clothes every time Trump farts, it's going to be much harder to see it and give it the coverage it deserves. Basically, it's going to be a 'boy who cried wolf' scenario. Trump doing something you disagree with is not the same as the second coming of Hitler. All your constant howling is doing is making it that much easier for him to brush you off when you have a more serious criticism.

[Strike For The South]

So much fuzz not enough facts. I can only assume everything I read is from some damnable KGB agent in some Moscow hovel. They get one pair of blue jeans and go right back to hating the capitalists.

in any event, I can't get behind a man who will leave those who collaborated with American forces out to dry. Those muslims did more for this country than Trump. It's unforgivable to pick up sticks and leave them high and dry.

[Kagemusha]

So much fuzz not enough facts. I can only assume everything I read is from some damnable KGB agent in some Moscow hovel. They get one pair of blue jeans and go right back to hating the capitalists.

in any event, I can't get behind a man who will leave those who collaborated with American forces out to dry. Those muslims did more for this country than Trump. It's unforgivable to pick up sticks and leave them high and dry.

You must have missed the memo, but Russia is now your buddy and Uncle Putin your best friend,while it is the dirty Chinese who are now source of all evil. The process of deciding which Muslims are good and which are bad is still ongoing, but its has been so for the last 50 years...

[CrossLOPER]

Ok...

Keep thinking about it. You're a smart guy.

Not as much as railcars, tanker trucks or ships. They also explode a lot more than pipelines. A lot more.

Would you like one on your property?

Murdering defenseless children is heinous.

Placing the value of a non-viable formation of cells over a living human being is insane. Who knows? They might be a threat. Better extinguish it before it turns 5.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LuacCIchzuc

You want to talk about saving children? Start with the ones that have already been born.

Incompetent in that it was rolled out with little to no warning for the agencies tasked with implementing it and then issuing contradictory statements on what to do with current visa/green card holders... first let them back in, then not, then let them back in. I guess they got it right 2/3 of the time.

It shouldn't have been an executive order. At all. You don't make an executive order of this scale and complexity based on arbitrary and cloudy guidelines. Complex thinking is something that seems to elude this administration.

Not so different from Obama's prosecution of whistleblowers and spying on members of the press, huh? See, this is a problem I wibbilty bibbilty blobby boo

Only one post and you immediately go off on about liberals and Obama and whatnot, and then mention Hitler. One post and you are a victim of the liberal agenda. Unbelievable.

[Xiahou]

Only one post and you immediately go off on about liberals and Obama and whatnot, and then mention Hitler. One post and you are a victim of the liberal agenda. Unbelievable.

Nope, not a victim. I was trying to explain to you why you're making it impossible for me and others to take you seriously. There's no point in trying to engage in you in any sort of discourse.... so I won't.