Trump Thread

[Husar]

Meaningless as usual. What is an American value (I can easily mention many supposed Russian values, with which America would be gladly associated) and why are Americans supposed to care about Crimea and their country's foreign interests?

An ordinary American shouldn't care at all if their proxies do better than Russian proxies or if X random dictatorship is ruled by a pro-American or a pro-Russian despot. Only nationalists care, and these guys are by definition dump and easily manipulated.

Foreign relations are irrelevant to human rights and if John Oliver has some decency left, I expect the rest of his episodes to comment on America's friendly relations with Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Bahrain, Egypt, Azerbaijan, Pakistan and almost every sub-Saharan state. Jesus, McCarthy is long dead, you aren't gonna get these votes back by russophobic hysteria.

That seems like a somewhat meaningless post considering you make a lot of assumptions about John Oliver not caring about the diplomatic relations to Saudi Arabia etc. He has a 20 minute segment and has to cram a lot of content into it. He cannot explain the entire world and all the problems in one go. And he did cover it by the way when he said that the US are not perfect and even mentioned that he usually talks about the imperfections of the US.
In fact, instead of russophobic hysteria, you could call it a questioning of friendly relationships with countries like Russia and Saudi Arabia in general. The use of Russia as an example makes sense given that it is a current hot topic obviously.

As for caring about Crimea and foreign interests, I would agree that the foreign interest thing is a bit weird, especially when it comes to business interests that make foreign people suffer. It is however a topic that people do care about, see people talking about better relations with Russia to intensify trade and create more jobs and so on. Why should Americans not care about what happened to Crimea?

[Crandar]

They should care in the sense that the international law was stomped, but Oliver's propaganda is misleading, because I would personally care more about... let's say the will of the Egyptian people getting stomped.

He skips Saudi Arabia in twenty seconds and focuses on Russia using the cleverest and oldest trick in the book. Casually and quickly recognizing it as valid and then ignoring it for the rest of the episode with a simple "aside".

He didn't lie, even when he implied that Putler should be blamed for every assassination happening in Russia by circular reasoning or that the economy is going to fall (it isn't, it has stabilised and been projected to rise). Not that I'm gonna shed any tears on Boris Nemtsov, the oligarch who ruined Novgorod, but you get the picture.

I know that what I'm saying can easily be dismissed as whataboutism, but the whole russophobic paranoia becomes very fragile, when viewed inside context. Hillary "laughing at extra-judicial murders" Clinton tried to play the patriotic, bald eagle card, but she failed miserably, because Americans had been taught to hate commies, not Russians specificallt and they still remember all these coffins sent by Zarkawi, al-Douri and the rest of the gang.

The only thing I am hopeful for Trump is that he somewhat improves the relations for Russia, regardless of Oliver's condescending opinion about Russians. Look at all these ignorant peasants believing stories about jugs and hating gays. It's Kipling burden all over again, but with Slavs instead of Africans and Asians.

End of rant.

[Husar]

Look at all these ignorant peasants believing stories about jugs and hating gays.

Ugh, even Russia Today doesn't deny those:
https://www.rt.com/news/russia-gay-law-myths-951/

A law was passed earlier this summer that levies a fine of up to 50,000 rubles (about $1,500 dollars) on any individuals, and up to 1 million rubles (about $30,000) on any organizations engaged in “propaganda of non-traditional relationships to minors”. Non-traditional sexual relationships were informally defined by the lawmakers as those that cannot lead to the production of offspring. What constitutes propaganda is also unclear.
[...]
After several one-offs refusals to let them go ahead, and unsanctioned protest rallies, Moscow’s local parliament banned gay demonstrations for a 100 years in 2011, and again in 2012. They have been allowed to take place in St. Petersburg under the guise of human rights demonstrations. These have inevitably ended in bloodshed, as LGBT campaigners have been outnumbered by religious and radical right-wing counter-protesters, with police having to separate the groups.
[...]
According to a May survey conducted by Levada Center, only 21 percent of Russians believe that homosexuality is a sexual orientation people are born with. Forty five percent believe that it is a result of “being subjected to perversion or loose personal morals”, with 20 more believing that it is both a result of circumstances and nature. More than half of Russians believe that homosexuality should be either punished by law (13 percent) or treated medically (38 percent). According to a survey conducted shortly after the gay propaganda law was passed by Levada, 76 percent of Russians support it.

What the people Putin kills or has deconstructed in courts actually did is irrelevant if he only does it to secure his own power. The situation where a president sits out a term limit for one term and then runs again has also never been seen in the US by the way, especially with a close ally of his taking over for the one term while he even takes a different government position. What would you call it if Obama had become Clinton's secretary of state and then ran again as president in 2020?

I will give you that there is such a thing as russophobic paranoia, but the existence of that does not whitewash all the things that are actually "wrong" about Russia.

[AE Bravo]

I like John Oliver, but that was literally seventeen minutes of talking about Putin's personality. The real issues he only addressed in the last three minutes, including the pop song at the end which is actually a strong political statement.

This is the problem with western media right now, everybody focusing on Trump said this and said that instead of his policies.

[drone]

The situation where a president sits out a term limit for one term and then runs again has also never been seen in the US by the way, especially with a close ally of his taking over for the one term while he even takes a different government position. What would you call it if Obama had become Clinton's secretary of state and then ran again as president in 2020?

Against the law, as Obama cannot run again. The 22nd amendment limits a person to <2.5 presidential terms total, regardless of consecutiveness. Grover Cleveland "sat out" a term, winning the popular vote 3 times but losing the electoral college for the middle one.

[Crandar]

There's no proof that Putin killed Nemtsov other than that he didn't like him. Yes, he may have, but he also may not, and mob squabbling sounds much likelier than the president ordering someone to be murdered near Kremlin.

I am not denying that Russia is more homophobic and undemocratic than the US, but Oliver's tone was clearly condescending and borderline racist, treating Russians like some naive idiots, who are clearly not as clever like him and his audience. Why would they vote for Putler other than stupidly swallowing his propaganda?!

Finally, I have no problem with how Putin circumvented the Russian constitution, as he was elected fair and square. Still a noob compared to our Karamanlis who in exactly 40 years was prime-minister for 14 and president for 10 (and maybe more hadn't been for the king and the junta).

Meanwhile, a bunch of Democrats believe that Hillary was liquidated, because Putin hacked their system. If I were Trump, I would enjoy their paranoia, stopping them from seeing the real causes of their dismal failure.

[Husar]

Against the law, as Obama cannot run again. The 22nd amendment limits a person to <2.5 presidential terms total, regardless of consecutiveness. Grover Cleveland "sat out" a term, winning the popular vote 3 times but losing the electoral college for the middle one.

Yes, but that doesn't improve anything about the Russian situation.

There's no proof that Putin killed Nemtsov other than that he didn't like him. Yes, he may have, but he also may not, and mob squabbling sounds much likelier than the president ordering someone to be murdered near Kremlin.

Nemtsov is not the only Putin critic who happened to have an accident. Do such things never happen to his friends because they're all nice and all his critics are criminals? What a coincidence...

Finally, I have no problem with how Putin circumvented the Russian constitution, as he was elected fair and square. Still a noob compared to our Karamanlis who in exactly 40 years was prime-minister for 14 and president for 10 (and maybe more hadn't been for the king and the junta).

See above regarding the circumvention. Fair and square has to be a joke given that opposition is pretty much not allowed to exist. Almost every journalist or newspaper critical of the man is getting harassed and shut down, critical questions are almost absent from his press conferences and the opposition parties are led by his friends and acquaintances. That's like saying everybody loves Kim Jong Un because people show up to his parades and you never hear about demonstrations against him. Prove me wrong with hard proof.


As for his policies, they're mostly as bad as the things he says. Let's take these:
https://www.politiplatform.com/trump

Crime: Starts out okay, then come the gun things that I just won'rt ever understand as a nanny statist. Plus replace the meth heads with gang members.

Education: Don't improve the school system, just give more tax money to private schools.

Environment: Yeah, sure, by shutting down the EPA and making one of its worst nightmares the head of the EPA. How am I supposed to believe that? Will he invent Clean Oil? As for the pipelines, which are oh so safe: https://i.ytimg.com/vi/3rxqUXqPzog/maxresdefault.jpg

Families: Some okay ones, but generally geared towards a population increase = more consumers of resources we are not going to have anymore soon. Yay!

Foreign Policy: Don't have time to think about all of it, but we already know he basically says "America First", huge military increase (why do we need more again if they get more anyway?) and, very funny, no stealing of US tech, not like they would hamper or steal technologies of other countries. No reason for me as a foreigner to like any of this obviously.

Government: Yes, he also placed bankers all over his cabinet and his head advisor is a racist, fascist, fake-news-running ex-banker...

Healthcare: Hard to say on a whim, but I assume more privatization, I like #70, that sounds like a game-changer. I'm curious to see the US cover everyone well with more privatization. Which president didn't promise to fix the VA? (possibly a lot, not like I checked)

Immigration: #90 sounds good, should have been implemented before those entitled millenials automatically got the citizenship. I propose a citizenship exam at age 21, failures get thrown over the wall.

Jobs & Economy: Still waiting to see more Americans with a job while everyone gets a hefty price increase on everything that is or was imported. The lower consumption could be offset by all the babies/new consumers.

Science & Tech: Basically the NSA does not **** me enough yet by saving all my communication?

Taxes: Some of them sound good, want to see them in action though, especially given that he basically promised to tax his friends more when he recently seemed concerned that they can't get enough loans/money.

[Crandar]

Nemtsov is not the only Putin critic who happened to have an accident. Do such things never happen to his friends because they're all nice and all his critics are criminals? What a coincidence...

And a fallacy. Nemtsov's death can be used to blame Putin for another murder and so on, ad infinitum...

See above regarding the circumvention. Fair and square has to be a joke given that opposition is pretty much not allowed to exist. Almost every journalist or newspaper critical of the man is getting harassed and shut down, critical questions are almost absent from his press conferences and the opposition parties are led by his friends and acquaintances. That's like saying everybody loves Kim Jong Un because people show up to his parades and you never hear about demonstrations against him. Prove me wrong with hard proof.

Firstly, you changed the topic, because censoring the opposition is not the same with exchanging places with your underling. Secondly, should I really link any evidence about Putin's increased popularity?

He represses the opposition, but he would have won any way. That doesn't excuse his actions but neither does it delegitimise his presidency.

/snip

Alright. Anyway, my point was that Oliver's obsession with Russia is dishonest, misleading and after all irrelevant. Why should I defend Putin.

[Husar]

And a fallacy. Nemtsov's death can be used to blame Putin for another murder and so on, ad infinitum...

What?
Nemtsov is not required to be a murder for all the "accidents" of his enemies to make him look suspicious.

Firstly, you changed the topic, because censoring the opposition is not the same with exchanging places with your underling. Secondly, should I really link any evidence about Putin's increased popularity?

He represses the opposition, but he would have won any way. That doesn't excuse his actions but neither does it delegitimise his presidency.

I didn't change the topic, I gave the answer regarding him switching positions above and then commented on your saying that he won fair and square. To say he would have won anyway sounds incredibly cynical and cannot be proven obviously, just like the opposite. That he does all these things clearly shows that his presidency is more like a dictatorship than a presidency. There are probably other dictators who may get a lot of votes, even majorities, but that doesn't change anything about their ruthlessness or that they may have brainwashed to population to get there. It's like saying Hitler didn't need elections anymore because he would have won them anyway, he was just a popular chancellor and not a dictator.

Alright. Anyway, my point was that Oliver's obsession with Russia is dishonest, misleading and after all irrelevant. Why should I defend Putin.

I don't think he has an obsession with Russia and every time US shows say about European countries it is partially misleading, just like I have people on Facebook who say misleading things about the US. You have to see the overall picture and he's not so wrong about Russia there.
And they're not irrelevant, he used it to show why Trump's attitude towards Russia is morally and perhaps judicially questionable. Trump is the one who has some strange obsession with talking about how he wants to be friends with Russia.

[CrossLOPER]

treating Russians like some naive idiots

You would be surprised what people are willing to believe. My relatives, for the longest time, could not differentiate between pedophiles and homosexuals. The way they saw it, is that what stops one from committing one lustful sin if they do another. It's just an example, but it is fairly easy to manipulate people with fear of some sort of punishment, whether from a divine source or some imbecile with access to explosives.

[Gilrandir]

Britain has an inbuilt immunity to Populism, our Monarch looms so large in the national consciousness that there's no room for a leader like Trump.

Wait till Charles III ascends the throne - I bet he won't loom that large.

We're already Hitler to the rest of Europe because we have so much power in the EU

Don't steal this title from Putin. He will take on so.

Not that I'm gonna shed any tears on Boris Nemtsov, the oligarch who ruined Novgorod, but you get the picture.

First of all, NIZHNY Novgorod.
Second of all, it is an exaggeration to call him an oligarch.
Third of all, as for Nemtsov being responsible for the "ruination" of"Novgorod" - a proof needed. Both for the fact of ruination and for the man being instrumental in it (if any).

[Sarmatian]

Non-traditional sexual relationships were informally defined by the lawmakers as those that cannot lead to the production of offspring.

So, getting a good old b-job after a hard day at work is out of the question?

I like John Oliver, but that was literally seventeen minutes of talking about Putin's personality. The real issues he only addressed in the last three minutes, including the pop song at the end which is actually a strong political statement.

This is the problem with western media right now, everybody focusing on Trump said this and said that instead of his policies.

Yeah, it was really weak. You can't really cover Putin in 20 minutes, anyway. He should have focused on a single, or at best a few aspects.