Trump Thread

[HopAlongBunny]

It pretty much fits with American doctrine.
Weaken any regional strongman; exploit...assist the weakened remains => profit!
It also fits America's lack of a long-term strategy: flashy, successful with 0 end goal in sight.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

It pretty much fits with American doctrine.
Weaken any regional strongman; exploit...assist the weakened remains => profit!
It also fits America's lack of a long-term strategy: flashy, successful with 0 end goal in sight.

Again, my response was on a tactical level. You are addressing a strategic concern. While I am not quite so jingoistic in my dismissal of American strategy in these things, your basic premise -- that we tend to skimp on the long term thinking in favor of the short term -- is a valid criticism. Bit of a weakness in our system really, the consistency in foreign policy thing.

[Fragony]

They trapped themselves nicely no, why throw a big bomb unless for a wargasm. They don't need to be immediatly dead, think medieval siege tactics. Starve the fuckers, they need food and water after all and will start killing eachother (and give it to them when they come out unarmed)

[Tristuskhan]

They trapped themselves nicely no, why throw a big bomb unless for a wargasm. They don't need to be immediatly dead, think medieval siege tactics. Starve the fuckers, they need food and water after all and will start killing eachother (and give it to them when they come out unarmed)

Just like the Soviet did 1979-1987?

Proceed, then. Come back and tell us when you're successful. Looks that you're as bright as Brejnev, at least...

[Gilrandir]

The media is focused on size, not on effect. All phallologocentric humor aside, it was a reasonable choice.



The enemy is in a canyon region, dug into tunnels 40m deep in rocky terrain. You can do the following:

1) drop conventional dumb bombs ($3,100 per) until enough 7-10 meter deep craters stacked on top of each other vertically until they breach or collapse the tunnels. You will have to use multiple strikes per 100 cubic meter area and those targeted will probably have a modest amount of time to vacate the area before they are actually killed.

2) drop guided conventional bombs (c. $27,500 per or $66,500 for laser precision) to create the same effect as in 1). Still requires multiple strikes albeit slightly more rapidly and with fewer misses to decrease the effect. Will not probably reduce the chance of the targets evacuating before they can be killed but will up the cost significantly.

3) drop guided deep penetrators ( to instantly breach and collapse the tunnels. The only munition we have that can do this, the MOP, costs $3M a bomb, can only by dropped by the B2, and we have fewer than 30 in our weapons stock. A large bunker complex connected by tunnels could well require ALL of those weapons to take it out.

4) MOAB ($16m per) uses massive fuel-air blast to create a huge blast wave and concussion effect. The explosion consumes so much oxygen that it depletes the local area of breathable air while creating it's little mushroom cloud explosion. It works on the deep tunnels by inducing a shockwave that mimics an earthquake locally while sucking all of the air out of any tunnels in the confined canyon region. It is deployed by being dumped out the back of a C-130 (among the lowest tech things in our arsenal). It is a costly bomb, but cheaper than any of the 3 previous options. This is why the military was labeling it the right bomb for the right target.

5) Use a nuclear bomb (c. $2M per) air-burst. Massive shockwave and heat will immolate the surface and collapse many of the tunnels. The deepest may survive both blast and radiation. The use of a nuclear weapon carries a number of political consequences along with a notable dose of fallout (though US weapons are comparatively 'clean' ones).

6) Use a nuclear weapon ground-burst. This will obliterate the target (the only option to do so with an essentially 100% effectiveness chance), wreck the local terrain for a generation, and pump a ridiculous amount of fallout into the atmosphere when compared to an air burst weapon. Political consequences will be as bad, possibly worse, than in option 5).

7) Use ground troops to eliminate the enemy forces after cordoning them into their valley. This would involve hunting the enemy in the tunnels after fighting up to and breaching the entrances. Since even a muj* can shoot effectively in a narrow tunnel, this would be a knacker's yard for all involved and would generate boatloads of casualties. As cheap or cheaper than 1) if you ignore the blood cost.

8) Leave them alone and let them go about their business.


Since 8) was not politically acceptable, 4) actually became a fairly reasonable choice. Please note that the cost of delivery systems, operational costs, and training costs were ignored in this listing as they are all "sunk" costs for choosing to execute any of the plans.


*_{Apparently, a sizeable proportion of the mujahedeen foot-soldiers take the view that it is their job to shoot at the enemies of the faith but that whether the bullet hits the target is in the hands of Allah. Literally a 'spray and pray' attitude.}

One more option forgotten: smoke'em out with sarin.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

One more option forgotten: smoke'em out with sarin.

Didn't address this because the USA doesn't have bioweapons and is actively destroying the last portion of our chemical weapons stockpile. While we have the knowledge and skills to produce either, we have abjured the use of these weapons while making clear our stance that any type NBC attack on the US might provoke a nuclear weapon response.

Sarin, as with most gas attack weapons, would be of limited utility in the cave/cavern scenario noted above anyway. All such defensive complexes are baffled and constructed so as to impede those kind of attacks anyway.

[Gilrandir]

Didn't address this because the USA doesn't have bioweapons and is actively destroying the last portion of our chemical weapons stockpile. While we have the knowledge and skills to produce either, we have abjured the use of these weapons while making clear our stance that any type NBC attack on the US might provoke a nuclear weapon response.

Sarin, as with most gas attack weapons, would be of limited utility in the cave/cavern scenario noted above anyway. All such defensive complexes are baffled and constructed so as to impede those kind of attacks anyway.

Ok. Then just smoke them out with whatever can burn to let out smoke.

[Strike For The South]

Lately, a great malaise has overtaken me. I have tried to resign myself to the fact that the United States will use force as a matter of course. A superpowers sheer inertia almost demands some kind of intervention occasionally. By virtue of being an American citizen I am in some fashion complicit in this. The blood soaks all of our hands, from the top down. I understand that when I am committed to the earth, I will have to answer for this.

However, I find it totally unconscionable that millions of South Koreans may die because some fat, micrococked, hedionsit shit stain wanted to start his "Easter" weekend early. If Korea launches a nuke, they will fizzile out somewhere over the pacific in a testament to delusion. What won't fail is the millions of pounds of ordinance pointed at Seoul. Those are the people I feel for. The people who's lives will be vaporized because America had a midlife crisis and elected a man whom couldn't be bothered.

[Husar]

Lately, a great malaise has overtaken me. I have tried to resign myself to the fact that the United States will use force as a matter of course. A superpowers sheer inertia almost demands some kind of intervention occasionally. By virtue of being an American citizen I am in some fashion complicit in this. The blood soaks all of our hands, from the top down. I understand that when I am committed to the earth, I will have to answer for this.

However, I find it totally unconscionable that millions of South Koreans may die because some fat, micrococked, hedionsit shit stain wanted to start his "Easter" weekend early. If Korea launches a nuke, they will fizzile out somewhere over the pacific in a testament to delusion. What won't fail is the millions of pounds of ordinance pointed at Seoul. Those are the people I feel for. The people who's lives will be vaporized because America had a midlife crisis and elected a man whom couldn't be bothered.

IIRC in the last discussion some people ensured me that the artillery is too old and will mostly fail anyway. It really sounds like a win-win-win situation where you can happily massacre millions of poor, brainwashed North Koreans and feel all righteous when you go to sleep. Of course there might be some collateral damage but that will be overshadowed by all the glory and righteousness to be had.

[HopAlongBunny]

Dropping the "beautiful bomb": https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...n-afghanistan/; helps fulfill the only 2 larger goals the USA ever seems interested in:

1) off load/expend munitions to keep the domestic warmachine churning;
2) demonstration that these touted weapons do in fact work

[Fragony]

Lately, a great malaise has overtaken me. I have tried to resign myself to the fact that the United States will use force as a matter of course. A superpowers sheer inertia almost demands some kind of intervention occasionally. By virtue of being an American citizen I am in some fashion complicit in this. The blood soaks all of our hands, from the top down. I understand that when I am committed to the earth, I will have to answer for this.

However, I find it totally unconscionable that millions of South Koreans may die because some fat, micrococked, hedionsit shit stain wanted to start his "Easter" weekend early. If Korea launches a nuke, they will fizzile out somewhere over the pacific in a testament to delusion. What won't fail is the millions of pounds of ordinance pointed at Seoul. Those are the people I feel for. The people who's lives will be vaporized because America had a midlife crisis and elected a man whom couldn't be bothered.

I kinda wonder if they would do something as atrocious as shelling Seoul. Small diplomatic public secret, French nukes are directed at all major European cities. Ours probably as well. We are teh EU right

[Tristuskhan]

Small diplomatic public secret, French nukes are directed at all major European cities. Ours probably as well. We are teh EU right

Alternative facts... Bigger diplomatic secret: those nukes are so unreliable they are aimed at villages around Brest, no more than 30 kms from the sub base. And we keep our subs because the crews once retired make good, smooth, glowing public lighting.

[Shaka_Khan]

It also fits America's lack of a long-term strategy: flashy, successful with 0 end goal in sight.

That's my main concern. I remember how Iraq turned out.