Trump Thread

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Couldnt you say the exact same thing about Republicans about Clinton with Benghazi and the emails and whatnot? Chanting "lock her up" isnt reflecting pre-judgement?

Of course you could. If you haven't already guessed from my references to "asshat-in-chief" thus far on divers threads, I am NOT a Trump fanboy. There very much IS a notable slice of the Trump/GOP crowd that is as unthinkingly ant-left as any frustrated communard hanging around the DNC with their 'we-want-Bernie' sign is anti-right.

I am simply, and I think consistently, noting that all of the vitriol and hyperbole dueling isn't substance. If there is a substantive connection between Trump and criminal abuse of the political system during, or obstruction of justice after the election, it eventually will out. Until such time, all of this is just persiflage.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Maybe, but you shouldn't lionize voting per se. It's just one more tool.

Civic participation in general is the key thing. Otherwise, whoever manages to vote in the highest number of local, state, and federal elections for which they are eligible would be considered a paragon. Yet, by voting and then getting back to private affairs one probably would tend to accomplish less than someone who is an activist in their community and country yet never votes.

Three rules for voting:

1. Track how close the race is.
2. Evaluate the importance of the position in the context of the issues that matter.
3. If you're expecting to write in a symbolic vote, just stay away.

I think when people are forced to make a choice, there is a psychological element that spurs activism.
No studies to prove that hypothesis on my end. Only my own observations that many of the Trump/Bernie supporters were apathetic citizens who bought into the idea of an outsider. Once they committed to vote for them based on their appealing image, they began to spend their money on campaign donations and their time shitposting on the internet. Mandatory voting abuses the sunk cost fallacy that pervades everyday thinking.

[a completely inoffensive name]

If there is a substantive connection between Trump and criminal abuse of the political system during, or obstruction of justice after the election, it eventually will out.

But what are your reasons for believing this?

Seamus, you must know as well as any honest American in here why the American system has been so resilient for the last 220+ years of American democracy.
We have to be serious that the structural success has been tied to the strength of our American culture towards separation of power and respect for the rule of law.

In other countries where this culture has not been cultivated, primary the Latin American/South American countries, presidents have easily become dictatorships with the support of a politically aligned legislature. The Presidential system by itself cannot be said to be effective at holding off tyranny. We admitted as such when we modeled the Iraqi government under the Parliamentary system, not our own. I have read at times that our Civil War greatly influenced the Australian people to move closer to the Parliamentarian system over the Presidential for their government.

Our own country has been steered away from crucial moments of tyranny, which not talked about too often. Under FDR, we were at risk of a jeopardized SCOTUS by setting the precedent that a popular president with the political clout could stack a hostile court with 5, 10, 15 more sympathetic justices. It was only the individual strength of character by Truman after him, that restored the balance of power by respecting the SCOTUS decision to deny Truman a government take over of striking steel mills during war time (Youngstown Sheet & Tube Co. v. Sawyer).

The past 200 years have been an exercise, not in the strength of American democracy, but in the strength of America's political and moral character. We lionize ideals and expect politicians to uphold them.

When Monty talks about how deep the waters are, it's more salient than many people realize. Yourself included. There is a tacit approval by a large contingent of Americans, who under the influence of Trumpism, follow this administrations cues to demean and smear the character of our existing law enforcement and policy generating institutions. Our president is calling the FBI political hacks, tainted and infiltrated by the 'other'. He has directly challenged the objectivity of the courts.

American history shows here is another moment where our institutions are vulnerable, and our culture is failing. Our only cure has been to stumble into 'Great Men' blessed with the restraint and character to guide us back to Liberal Democracy.

Will our next president be another Truman? Do you believe such a correction with come from the Republican Party in 2020? The Democrats? If you can't say yes to any of these questions, you should be worried. To maintain your cavalier attitude to current events is naive at best.

[Greyblades]

Tell me, without hint of incredulity if you are able, what does history tell you happened when your institutions were worthy of the supposed smear? When your courts were not objective and those protective branches acted political?

[Montmorency]

Tell me, without hint of incredulity if you are able, what does history tell you happened when your institutions were worthy of the supposed smear? When your courts were not objective and those protective branches acted political?

Socialists scared the piss out of the elites and forced a little honesty from them. Before that, violence.

[Greyblades]

Why do you think that diversity of opinion on Trump's character or fitness has merit, rather than being a sign of moral and intellectual defect? Do you actually have anything to offer on the subject besides indistinct contrarianism and water-carrying?

So what?

Diversity of opinion is what keeps you sane, history has shown time and again that excluding those that dont share your consensus results in modes of thought that diverges with reality and an inevitable failure to react once reality doesnt go as expected. It's the same self delusion that every tinpot tyrant of the last two centuries indulged in and thier people suffered for it.

The same mindset has gripped this thread where the most divergeant voice is again seamus and the menagerie have reverted to the pre election dreams of inevitable deliverance. Yet what disturbs me is that such as monty are acting like you are so convinced thar your viewpoint on trump's character or fitness is the only possible one; you think anyone who disagrees is defective.

The more I come here the more it feels that all the posters I used to look up to here have either left in disgust or succumbed to the latest moral panic; you are neither a fool or a provocateur, I have never seen you use such hyperbole before so for someone like you to so dehumanize an entire political subset in apparant sincerity is frankly disheartening.

George W. Bush's tenure is one of the only things keeping Trump from claiming the title of "Worst POTUS".

He long ago claimed "Worst Candidate", however.

This is patently untrue, the fifteen candidates he walked over in victory proves this.

He's instead undermined NATO by reducing his understanding and support to simple transnational accounting.

NATO is an enormous drain on resources the US millitary could be using else where and the urgency for america to garrison the border has become rather thin since '91, why is it so bad that Trump would want to put a fire under the feet of NATO's hangers on? I dont see much cause to believe that they would abandon it, call his bluff perhaps but with the ukranians as example I see little actual risk in this.

Left the TPP which was supposed to help us check China's economic clout.

I think you will find little agreement that it was worth having your government open to being sued by companies for causing lost profits through policy decisions, as well as further exposing america's allready struggling working class to competition by vietnamese sweatshops.

I've heard abouth the revisions that have come with the US leaving it, but I must ask those who would point to them what makes you think an american congress (or more specifically it's lobby) that was ensuring such bad terms remained would allow trump to join it without such conditions?
It is perhaps reminiscient Britain's retreat from the EU, the ideal is forever out of reach for the one nation that was willing to leave over its imperfections.

He openly sides with every autocrat around, has yet to criticize Putin for anything.

The first is definitively false, else Trump'd be siding with him over iran and north korea. The second is somewhat hard to cross with the fact that he didnt hesitate to bomb Putin's pet syrian, broke a deal with the iranian and antagonize the korean.

Additionally both assertions require an agreement that autocracies or putins are never right to side with, which as doctrine is one roundly rejected by many of your cold war presidents and the previous two presidents who divested from Realpolitik are remembered as foreign relation catastrophes by all but thier party.

I dare say trump is finding kinship with putin when both bear the brunt of the democrats attempts to excuse thier electoral performance, an irony that in a way the democrats are doing more to bridge the US-Russia divide by criticism than they ever did during their own attempts at extending the olive branch.

Looking at how his trip to Asia has gone he's made it obvious he's no negotiator or deal maker, he just wants to be courted and feel important.

You'll have to elaborate; as far as I have seen it has been your standard state visit tour, there hasnt been any visible negociation or deals to exhibit competence or lack thereof.

He's made it plain for all to see that he's actually not used to having to do anything. If any legislation requires more than his vocal support he doesn't seem to do anything to push for it's being passed.

I am assuming you are referring to the attempts to replace obamacare, the bills proposed by GOP congressmen that proved to be political poison and that would have actually made things worse?

I suspect he didnt give them much support for a reason.

His threat to democracy is evident in his on going war with the press. Yes, they don't like him. He is however a compulsive liar and his constant contradictions, statements in the realm of fantasy, and undermining of the very people he picked to do his work for him undermine our democracy.

No it doesnt.

Actions that undermine democracy are things that interfere with the voting process, like how democrats bus voters or republicans deny ex convicts the vote, Turkey's use of the coup to rewrite of the constitution or China's state media monopoly actually censoring the press would also count.

I am confused at a definition of undermining democracy that includes verbally chewing out hostile media outlets on twitter and making functionaries lives difficult. Undermining the government's ability to function sounds closer to what you mean but it seems to be silly to be complaining about it now since it had been effectively immobile for just under a decade before trump showed up. As for the tweets, the entirety of thier impact have been entirely on the reaction they entail, typically by those who give those 280 characters far more thought and importance then he did.

He as a key negotiator should know how to schmooze people, instead he feuds with Mitch and Ryan, insults respectable people like Mccain making our system of checks and balances a deadlock instead.

I would say the utility of negociating with Mitch and Ryan are minimal, their relationship with trump is close to that of weak vassals; they are not going to rebel over being berated and frankly thier attempts at shifting the obamacare albatross has justified that public humiliation.

A pundit I follow suspects they have been immobile for so long they have forgotten how to do thier jobs. Regardless they need replacing and Trump's haranging I suspect is effort in that direction.

As for Mccain I think you are overestimating his respectability. His opponents like him more than many of his contemporaries currently whose memories of the old man are tarnished by his 2008 electoral suicide, his constant advocating of each and every opportunity to send america's youth to die.

In the eyes of the Trump supporters the insults are justified blastback for two events: supporting the pissgate dossier of which much time and effort have been wasted with little to no actual incrimination, and that time he actively attempted to commit sedition:



Even the image of the war hero has been tarnished with the fairly recent declassification of audio footage of mccain's tenure as guest of the vietcong, for which he apparantly played tokyo rose.



I dare say the man is only seen as respectable due to ignorance of his mistepps and because the democrats say he is; and they only do that because their capacity to block anything is entirely reliant on his cooperation. To trump mccain is currently a dead man walking in more ways than one and likely was never going to cooperate to begin with.

The disintergration of mccain's reputation has allowed trump to hit the old man ith both barrels without detrimental consequence.

Additionally, his complete and utter lack of understanding of how the rule of law works in this country undermines peoples faith in that branch as well.

He has projected a poor understanding indeed, but I find it a complete and utter lack of understanding does not account for the year long investigation uncovering so little actual ammuntion to use against him.

The man either has just enough understanding to follow the law despite his running mouth, or an excessive understanding that allows him to so effectively cover up his subversion of it while simultaniously outright taunting anyone to catch him.

I am not exactly inclined to believe the latter myself.

How dare his criticize the federal courts and suggest Gitmo and a military tribunal for a terror suspect instead when the last 15 years of war have shown how ineffective Gitmo and tribunals are.

How dare he? Gitmo is the place you send those enemies of the state that cannot be reconciled but whose execution is not desireable, whose best fate is to die of age a hole in the ground. For such a purpose gitmo is eminently suitable and it's criticisms stem not from it's capability but the failures of those who decide who is thrown in that pit. Such concerns however do not apply to Sayfullo Saipov, this is a man whose guilt is undeniable and repentance not forthcoming, prime filler for the pit and one whose entry would be celebrated by those citizens who seek retribution but find death unpalatable.

Perhaps you consider the ongoings of gitmo unconsciable, but I fear at this point I find myself unable to share the sentiment, when everyone in a position of influencing it has no issue using torture I find myself not outraged over the current one not being a rank hypocrite over it, merely exhausted.

Additionally I find the idea of the federal courts being above criticism as equally absurd as the idea of trump holding that privledge, the supreme court may have a good record but the courts underneath them do not. Corruption, conflicts of interest and outright activism are the order of the day in several circuits and with such byzantine difficulty placed between the individual judge and his rightful removal it is a situation I see little improvement possible without reform.

Believe me, I'd love the POTUS to make the economy grow, use a mix of hard and soft power to ensure the stability of the world order. I actually support several of the policies he supposedly is pushing but I've yet to see infrastructure pushed, I've yet to see him be tough of China, I've yet to see sensible immigration that isn't based on religion.

Frustration at a lack of progess is one we share, the results of the tax plan will be the litmus test to see if there truly is is an economic brain under that mop, though finding reliable data on it will for a while be a female dog.

We're going to have to disagree on the last two parts, the dealings with china in regards to north korea have been better than I have seen out of the last three admins, though admittedly that was a low standard to begin with; he's hardly a metternich. As for immigration while attempts have been stymied by the circuit courts you have allready seen a marked decrease in crossings simply from the operation wetback effect.

He's made it evident that the Trump brand is the most important thing to him which is terrible to me because the most important thing should be the brand of the United States which he drags through the mud almost every time he opens his mouth.

His brand survived when he was running his mouth the decade or so before becoming potus.

The US's brand is in no danger from his mouth for the simple reason that the US' brand is not based on approval it is based on power and the willingness to use it.

Contrast the squarking of the european governments (mostly thier media and more vocal minority parties) with the actual action they have taken in regards to the americans: none. They have done nothing, they have backed out of no deals with america over trump's attitude, they havent fled america's umbrella, the only action remotely in kind has been noise over economic tarrifs of which the EU has been thus far reluctant to escalate.

Realpolitik overides all PR, obama might have been the media's darling but that didnt stop the chinese snubbing him on his way out, nor did loutishness stop the chinese laying out the red carpet for trump.

America is king. To all but the marginalized or insane America is feared more than it is hated and as long as america shows willingness to justify that fear noone of consequence will rebel over words as long as that fear outweighs the hate, that is why obama's red line was so damaging and the bombing of syria was so important; force becomes power only when it is willing to be used.

Well if he starts two endless wars and takes a growing economy and puts it into recession then he'd get to take a seat with Dubya as well. This tax plan has me worried because it seems to hinge on rosy economic forecasts which if aren't even close to attain will massively skyrocket the debt even more (to think that George W. inherited an economy with a budget surplus and ruined it still pisses me off).

As I said, it's the test, though I have a sinking feeling that even if it would work congress will panic over some confidence dip and an actual boom will be killed in the crib. Bush wasnt exactly a republican outlier in respect for economic incompetence.

I think his stats are more in the realm of 2/1/1. I've seen nothing that shown him having any military or diplomatic competence, undermining our military alliance and trade agreements wouldn't point to diplomatic skill. The two is really only there from his business experience which would transfer over to EU4's administrative though looking at the amount of unfilled vacancies perhaps that should be a 1 as well. What makes you think he's got military competency? He doesn't even know where his fleets (or should I say Armadas) are sailing though that would be the diplomatic side in EU4.

He knows when to use force and when to hold off to get what he wants and he is willing to defer to his advisors, that physical restraint I would say is suprisingly rare in the history of rulers with the level of autonomy of the president.

That would be enough for at least dip and mil 3 if not 4, though I would conceed a +10% mil tech cost trait, as his ability is in terms of capability not theory; he isnt exactly writing doctrine.

In addition he has been exceedingly effective at walking the line between mere outrage and actually insighting action, he has exhausted his opponents chasing red herrings, blown the credibility of formerly respected outlets on increasingly desperate attacks and frankly has defined teflon coated presidency with how few of the scandals have actually changed anything.

He has maintained such chaos yet suffered little from it and still maintaining the image of an absolute idiot to the point even many of his supporters including myself dont know if it is intentional or some sort of automatic behavior, hence the 4 adm, it'd be a 5 if it was intentional or were doing it without pulling the rug out from under his own staff on occasion.

Spmetla has already explained that maybe Trump is so bad that only very few people like him anymore and most of them aren't here.
Would it make you happy if I posted dissenting opinions about how great Trump is or what do you want?

You seem to be saying that somehow the thread is terrible because everybody in here dislikes Trump. Have you ever considered that maybe the reason this is the only thread where pretty much everyone agrees is that Trump is just terrible or can that not be the case because it does not fit your opinion?

And if you have a differing opinion, why not provide it as Monty says? Don'te be lazy, break up the echo chamber yourself!

What exactly is your point?

It would make me happy if people in this forum didnt keep driving away dissenting voices.

While it certainly doesnt help that the quality of arguments have gone down hill, if intelligence were enough to kill a board this would have been a ghost town years ago. I mean hiding behind another poster and relying on a perception majority agreement to persuade your opponent, it doesnt exactly engender confidence.

However it's been two years since we were on general good terms, you and I were talking fairly civilly over the viability of renewable energy, and coming to a sort of agreement over the viability of hydro electricity.

Since then the tone on this board has gone sour, beyond the customary condescention I have encounterd an increasing number of incidents where disagreement has been treated with hostilty and intolerance, where once at worst we attacked eachother's intelliegence our character has come on the firing line; morality, integrety, sanity.

Attacks not to discredit bad ideas but to demonize for wrongthink. This thread is the worst of it because not only are the tensions high but one side is grossly overrepresented so the cycle of ideological reenforcement has set in such that even our best are beginning to indulge in dehumanizing thier opposition.

The taboo that kept this place civil has been broken by those whose "teams" lost out in 2016 and the resulting downgrade in standards is driving away members and frankly the only think keeping me here has been people like seamus who still is somehow able to refrain from sinking into the depths as I frequently have despite recieving similar provocation.

My point is I wish I was paid by the goddamn russians as it would give me a satisfactory reason for why I keep finding myself drifting back here!

[Greyblades]

Socialists scared the piss out of the elites and forced a little honesty from them.

Seems only the first half of that has happened this time.

[spmetla]

He knows when to use force and when to hold off to get what he wants and he is willing to defer to his advisors, that physical restraint I would say is suprisingly rare in the history of rulers with the level of autonomy of the president.

That would be enough for at least dip and mil 3 if not 4, though I would conceed a +10% mil tech cost trait, as his ability is in terms of capability not theory; he isnt exactly writing doctrine.

In addition he has been exceedingly effective at walking the line between mere outrage and actually insighting action, he has exhausted his opponents chasing red herrings, blown the credibility of formerly respected outlets on increasingly desperate attacks and frankly has defined teflon coated presidency with how few of the scandals have actually changed anything.

We haven't actually seen him use force though. He's made statements about additional bombings in Syria or moving more combat power around but the level or intensity of bombings have NOT changed and the boost to military power in Korea have been scheduled years in advance and had nothing to do with his directing a buildup.
A restraint in using force is actually the norm for the US minus very minor conflicts in our periphery (Grenada, Panama, Haiti). Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, and Afghanistan are far from the norm for the US but the longlasting cultural, political, and military impacts make them seem as we're a nation at constant war when we aren't (up to the Global War on Terror at least).

I'm certainly no fan of too much restraint which is why I still think Obama was a foreign policy wimp, especially in regard to the Ukraine which merited a strong reversal of our policies in Europe in addition to sanctions.
As for his deferring to advisors, on the face of his administration it seems that he doesn't defer to them. He seems to just have zero interest in the day to day operations in any of the departments and only weighs in on the big issues which would normally be fine but when he weighs in it seems to be in contrast and in ignorance of those day to day policies. A good boss doesn't need to do the small stuff but should at least be aware of what the small stuff is.

As for his walking the line between outrage and action, I think that's primarily because his got the protection of the other two branches of government at the moment. If the Republicans lose the Senate (or the House if things go terrible for them somehow) he will see a lot more action against him for sure just as Hillary and Obama had (bengazi, emails, endless executive orders).

He has maintained such chaos yet suffered little from it and still maintaining the image of an absolute idiot to the point even many of his supporters including myself dont know if it is intentional or some sort of automatic behavior, hence the 4 adm, it'd be a 5 if it was intentional or were doing it without pulling the rug out from under his own staff on occasion.

I'd say he's suffered a lot from it. He's lost a lot of support from on the fence folks. People like myself that were forced to accept that one of two horrible candidates would win are now in the opposition to him.
Maintaining the image of an absolute idiot isn't a win for anyone. If it's intentional, well then perhaps those conspiracy theories about him being a Democratic Trojan horse to discredit and splinter the Republican party are true. The constant crazy and chaotic news cycle that is largely fed by his tweets are draining a lot of support for him. Even people like my brother who voted for him, doesn't read any news but what's shared on facebook are wondering what the heck the POTUS is doing.

If I ever seem hostile, I sincerely apologize. This President exasperates me a lot. The most difficult thing for me to understand with his ardent supporters is how they could also support George W. Bush, or John McCain, or even Bob Dole for those that remember. Trump is the farthest from any of those politicians, he's not a traditional republican in the slightest but my card carrying republican friends are more loyal to the party brand than any of the previous principles (such as free trade, NATO, and fiscal conservatism).

[a completely inoffensive name]

The Personal is Political.

[HopAlongBunny]

A little update on the tax bill from PolitiFact:

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...sion-tax-bill/

It is likely more will be coming out shortly.

[Husar]

It would make me happy if people in this forum didnt keep driving away dissenting voices.

Indeed, all the left-leaning members who were driven away by the right wing members so that every thread on refugees is now dominated by people talking about how their race ideologies explain why we need ethnic separation. The exodus of left-wing posters is really unbearable, which is why I may have become less nice in my replies. It just costs too much time to explain the same things to three people because they all want their own debate with me and I'm the only communist who still bothers replying in order to prevent the forum from looking like a racist circlejerk.

While it certainly doesnt help that the quality of arguments have gone down hill, if intelligence were enough to kill a board this would have been a ghost town years ago. I mean hiding behind another poster and relying on a perception majority agreement to persuade your opponent, it doesnt exactly engender confidence.

I'm not hiding behind Spmetla, what quality would you gain by reading his exact argument again from me?
Or do I have to find a new bogus argument just to be different?

Since then the tone on this board has gone sour, beyond the customary condescention I have encounterd an increasing number of incidents where disagreement has been treated with hostilty and intolerance, where once at worst we attacked eachother's intelliegence our character has come on the firing line; morality, integrety, sanity.

Indeed, a tragedy how some posters thought belittling others somehow invalidates arguments. Morality is a perfectly fine subject of debate though IMO. If your argument is immoral, I'm going to point that out. If you want a nicer debate, morality is the basis, otherwise it could become hard to define a nicer debate in the first place. If my morality were off, I might think insulting your intelligence is the only moral thing to do since you deserve it.

Attacks not to discredit bad ideas but to demonize for wrongthink. This thread is the worst of it because not only are the tensions high but one side is grossly overrepresented so the cycle of ideological reenforcement has set in such that even our best are beginning to indulge in dehumanizing thier opposition.

Given how many of this board's active members are on the "right" side of politics, the overrepresentation of anti- Trump rhetoric in this thread might just be a hint at how bad he really is, when even a lot of the people you'd expect to support him think he's acting like a buffoon in most of what he does. The overrepresentation of one side in a single thread does not necessarily hint at there being something wrong with the discussion, it might just hint at some kind of bi-partisan consensus. Even though Seamus tries to see the good in Trump, I don't think he's a fan. And when you give your opponents very human traits to show their flaws, it's not dehumanizing. I'm thinking of the dementia talk here for example. On the other hand, the refugee threads with people basically trying to explain to me how refugees were suppeosedly genetically on a lower level than us European Humans....

The taboo that kept this place civil has been broken by those whose "teams" lost out in 2016 and the resulting downgrade in standards is driving away members and frankly the only think keeping me here has been people like seamus who still is somehow able to refrain from sinking into the depths as I frequently have despite recieving similar provocation.

This is demonstrably false as I had several ugly fallouts in refugee threads in 2015 already. And they weren't coming from the side that lost in 2016...

My point is I wish I was paid by the goddamn russians as it would give me a satisfactory reason for why I keep finding myself drifting back here!

This is a tough one. I could now try to drive you off in a selfless effort to increase your happiness. But it would make your point about driving people away true...
Or I could be really nice to you to make you stay here, but actually condemn you to continued misery...
Do you see how the actual result or the public image would always be contrary to the intention?

As for your stance on Trump, your entire argument is based on him being a hidden genius who is actually well-meaning, like a positive conspiracy theory. If that seems plausible to you, then you also have to believe the reports that Kim Jong Un is actually trying to open up North Korea, but has to do the murders and stuff because he is struggling against the NK Deep State. It's interesting how this benefit of the doubt seems to apply to Trump but not to Kim Jong Un. Can the noble Swiss have possibly not raised him well?

And how do you explain that Trump wants to make coal great again when even coal mine owners think it's not going to create any job growth anymore? How is he the peoples' candidate when he placed 4 or more Goldman Sachs people and many, many millionaires and billionaires in his government after blasting Clinton for being too close to Wall Street? How is the tax reform good for workers? Do you still believe in trickle down economics?

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Bernie did more blasting of Hillary's Wall street support than did Trump

[Husar]

Bernie did more blasting of Hillary's Wall street support than did Trump

But did he plan to recruit them all for his government like Trump did?
The blasting is not what I take issue with, I might even appreciate it from Trump if he actually acted accordingly. The problem is that he doesn't. His excuse that they're "the best" and that he needs them to fix the very problems they created has now resulted in a long term tax increase for poor people and tex decrease for the rich, favoring industry and fake jobs (like all the mining jobs he won't actually create) over public health and the environment and other such nonsense that proves many of his campaign promises to have been somewhere between outright lies and "only" hot air. Perhaps he also joined the wrong party in the first place if he actually wanted legislators who would help him help the working class.

And if we want to talk morals even though some dislike that...is it actually moral in the greater world to give a job to an American worker that you "stole back" from a Chinese worker? Is the suffering of an unemployed American worker worse than that of an unemployed Chinese worker?

Can jobs even be "stolen"? What if the American worker requires a higher wage, makes the products more expensive and then can't afford them himself anymore? And what if they're only so expensive because the profit margin needs to be so high because investors expect their ROI? What if he gets laid off again after two years because demand has decreased since the price went up? I rarely see answers to all these questions, and no, "trickle down" is not an answer.

My argument is that the privatization craze and trickle down don't work. And my example is Chile. In Chile this system was introduced under Pinochet with the help of the "Chicago Boys", which were students of Milton Friedman (or at least, his ideas) IIRC. They privatized and "marketed" almost everything in Chile, much like the Republicans tend to plan it in the US. The result? Private schools are expensive, but the teaching is still very bad. Water is entirely on the market and bought by mining corporations, even if that means local residents get none. The mining corporations cheat on the government because toll duty is performed by the provate firms that also secure the mines. Four families own ~90% of the entire wealth of the country and the rest work hard to send their kids to school and buy some water. Some people will see their properties flooded because corporations will flood the valley by building dams to make more money with the water. Resistance is almost futile because the poor people can't even afford a lawyer to go to court (remember, they spend all their money on useless things like schools and water)...

Why is this important regarding Trump? Because he and his cronies think introducing more of that would fix the US. I'm sure it will fix something, but that something does not include the problems of the working class...
Yes, he is different, and he said it like it was and blabla, but I don't believe for a second that any of his "solutions" will actually deliver on these promises...
Remember that he also sold some people a "university education", we all know how that turned out...

I get that some people work hard and might deserve more and I'm even okay with my boss making more than I do, the question is to what degree this can be allowed to happen and how much of this should be inheritable by the children if you actually do acknowledge that the working class is not doing well and want to fix the problem?
Trickle down has been implemented to various degrees since the 70ies and all it has done was slowly get us to where we are now, caused the problems in the first place. It's more like a trickle up and the fewer taxes the wealthy pay, the faster it trickles up...

I won't claim Sanders addressed all of these problems (does he care about the working class in China? probably less so). But he was a whole lot better than both the alternatives IMO. his secondary or tertiary house or whatever is small stuff compared to golden toilets in golden phallus towers.

And just because I keep forgetting to add it, Xiahou once linked an article that said Trump would be richer now if he had just invested his money into something relatively secure instead of "working with it". That does seem to set his "business skill" into perspective quite a bit...

[Devastatin Dave]

Emperor Trump continues to win! Win, win WIN!!!! Praise his supremacy! Its unfortunate that his competition is simply to inept and weak to be worthy of his greatness. MAGA!!!

[Montmorency]

If I ever seem hostile, I sincerely apologize. This President exasperates me a lot. The most difficult thing for me to understand with his ardent supporters is how they could also support George W. Bush, or John McCain, or even Bob Dole for those that remember. Trump is the farthest from any of those politicians, he's not a traditional republican in the slightest but my card carrying republican friends are more loyal to the party brand than any of the previous principles (such as free trade, NATO, and fiscal conservatism).

The problem of Trump's success is that he is inspirational almost entirely on the basis of racial and cultural anxiety. Where such anxiety is the primary motivator and frame for one's worldview, one will suffer anything if one thinks their enemies can be made to suffer more. It transitions from "cutting off your nose to spite your face" to "death cult".

I said this a couple of weeks ago:

Beyond the presidential race, there's something to be said of ideological clarity and consistency.

The Democratic Party offers wishy-washy incrementalism that coddles moneyed interests.

The Republican Party offers a truly RADICAL platform.

Revolution, no matter its contents or injustices, is inherently sexier than incrementalism.

The figure of Trump appeals to white grievance, and the Republican platform - which is quite fine by white grievance, to be sure, but is more narrowly focused on privatizing government and society - can ride along in its wake. Trump is the culmination of the Republican Party since Goldwater, and a more valuable tool than the superficial resistance would suggest. Trump(ism) is both workhorse and meat shield for the Republican agenda.

Two quotes reinforce this point, and also suggest that the way out is a clear, consistent, and radical opposing agenda, and a broad-based campaign to promulgate it:

If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you.

Stay Tuned with Preet Bharara (12/7/17)

...America should come up with a bright vision of the future. We just have to excite people about this vision. If you don't excite young people with some kind of projects, ideas, then you have Al Qaeda, ISIS, and other groups. [The] status quo always loses to dynamic ideology, even if this ideology is very unhuman and heinous.

The trouble is, who will be the grassroots drivers of this shift? Republicans are depraved, Democrats* in terms of the class of elected party politicians are quite similar to the (pre-Trump) Republicans qua transpartisan elite... I can only suppose that socialists in office, throughout the country and at all levels of government, are the prerequisite for the necessary inflection point in the Overton window. Today, it likely means the Democratic Party needs to be hollowed out by ideologues and lose most of its big donors...


*Including Obama, who was in fact more of a Clintonite than Hillary Clinton. His chief mastery was in the Clintonian Third Way techniques, couching hedged bets and a stylized status quo in the language of "hope and change": hence his victory over Clinton in 2008. Yet I doubt any of you here dislike Obama as much as you dislike Hillary Clinton. That's propaganda for you, folks.

[Kralizec]

As for Mccain I think you are overestimating his respectability. His opponents like him more than many of his contemporaries currently whose memories of the old man are tarnished by his 2008 electoral suicide, his constant advocating of each and every opportunity to send america's youth to die.

In the eyes of the Trump supporters the insults are justified blastback for two events: supporting the pissgate dossier of which much time and effort have been wasted with little to no actual incrimination, and that time he actively attempted to commit sedition:

[youtube video]

McCain was tortured by the North Vietnamese and coerced by his captors to produce propaganda material. This is not news, and neither was his case unique.

That these people are trying to paint this as a wilfull case of collaboration is laughable, he says in the audio recording that he received excellent medical care yet somehow, he returned to the USA as a crippled man.

You are only debasing yourself when you post stupid stuff like this.

[Kralizec]

Emperor Trump continues to win! Win, win WIN!!!! Praise his supremacy! Its unfortunate that his competition is simply to inept and weak to be worthy of his greatness. MAGA!!!

Molesters Are Great Americans?

Make America Grope Again?

Make Another Gilded Age?

[HopAlongBunny]

The LBJ quote above is a regular theme of American elections.
Through one lens (at least) the political process is best described in https://www.amazon.ca/White-Trash-40.../dp/0670785970; which can be summed as: I'm alright, as long as there is someone I can look down on.
The question of who will occupy the bottom wrung got a little more complicated after the slaves were made citizens...

[Devastatin Dave]

Molesters Are Great Americans?

Make America Grope Again?

Make Another Gilded Age?

Grope, molestation, gilded age? Back in the day, it was called romance. Don't let these bitches fool you. They use their vaginas much like someone uses a credit card. Any females on here take offence? Good! You liked out having a vagina which is nothing more than a ATM. Empires rise and fall because of vagina. And those with vaginas DESTROY civilizations because of their vaginas (see Merkel, Hillary, May). But thankfully, Kek granted we in the United States Emperor Trump who shall deliver us from these filthy one world sluts who bring foreign rapists and murderers from 3rd century hell holes in order to destroy their own culture and civilizations. Guys, stop being cucks. Find your nads Euroweenies before all your women are in burkas and you live in desolate slums.... Praise Emperor Trump and his wisdom! MAGA!

[Montmorency]

High standards

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Grope, molestation, gilded age? Back in the day, it was called romance. Don't let these bitches fool you. They use their vaginas much like someone uses a credit card. Any females on here take offence? Good! You liked out having a vagina which is nothing more than a ATM. Empires rise and fall because of vagina. And those with vaginas DESTROY civilizations because of their vaginas (see Merkel, Hillary, May). But thankfully, Kek granted we in the United States Emperor Trump who shall deliver us from these filthy one world sluts who bring foreign rapists and murderers from 3rd century hell holes in order to destroy their own culture and civilizations. Guys, stop being cucks. Find your nads Euroweenies before all your women are in burkas and you live in desolate slums.... Praise Emperor Trump and his wisdom! MAGA!

DevDave:

There is not another poster like you on this forum. Vous etes sans peur et sans pair.

[Montmorency]

So the tax... Holy moly.

VP Pence's praise for Trump in a Cabinet Meeting

1.“Thank you for seeing, through the course of this year, an agenda that truly is restoring this country.”
2.“You described it very well, Mr. President.”
3.“You've restored American credibility on the world stage.”
4.“You've signed more bills rolling back federal red tape than any president in American history.”
5.“You've unleashed American energy.”
6.“You've spurred an optimism in this country that's setting records.”
7.“You promised the American people in that campaign a year ago that you would deliver historic tax cuts, and it would be a 'middle-class miracle.' And in just a short period of time, that promise will be fulfilled.”
8.“I’m deeply humbled, as your vice president, to be able to be here."
9.“Because of your leadership, Mr. President, and because of the strong support of the leadership in the Congress of the United States, you're delivering on that middle-class miracle.”
10.“You've actually got the Congress to do, as you said, what they couldn’t do with [the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge in Alaska] for 40 years.”
11.“You got the Congress to do, with tax cuts for working families and American businesses, what they haven’t been able to do for 31 years.”
12.“And you got Congress to do what they couldn’t do for seven years, in repealing the individual mandate in Obamacare.”
13.“Mostly, Mr. President, I’ll end where I began and just tell you, I want to thank you, Mr. President. I want to thank you for speaking on behalf of and fighting every day for the forgotten men and women of America.”
14.“Because of your determination, because of your leadership, the forgotten men and women of America are forgotten no more. And we are making America great again.”

Pence paused from praising Trump only briefly to also praise the other people seated around the table. But in doing so, he made clear that it was because Trump would want him to — and that these were members of a team that Trump was savvy enough to have assembled.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

But Pence was hardly alone in furiously sacrificing his dignity on the altar of the president’s fragile ego. Here is what 83-year-old Utah senator Orrin Hatch had to say about a president who watches television for four-to-eight hours a day; goes on a golf vacation nearly every weekend; and who has effectively turned the White House into an “adult daycare center,” according to other Republican senators:

Mr. President, I have to say that you’re living up to everything I thought you would. You’re a heck of a leader. And we’re all benefiting from it. This president hasn’t even been in office for a year and look at all the things that he’s been able to get done — by sheer will, in many ways … I came from very humble roots. And I have to say that this is one of the great privileges of my life to stand here on the White House lawn with the president of the United States who I love and appreciate so much … We’re going to make this the greatest presidency that we’ve seen, not only in generations, but maybe ever.

Tennessee congresswoman Diane Black opted to debase herself with a bit more concision, saying “Thank you, President Trump, for allowing us to have you as our President.”

Meanwhile, Paul Ryan praised Trump’s “exquisite leadership,” and thanked him for “getting us over the finish line.” Mitch McConnell declared Trump’s entire first year in office to be an “extraordinary accomplishment.”

Ben Carson thanked God for giving America a president who is “courageous” and “willing to face the winds of controversy in order to provide a better future for those who come behind us.”

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

HOLY MOLY

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Beskar]

Trump will personally save up to $15m under tax bill, analysis finds -
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...vings-analysis

[Devastatin Dave]

Trump will personally save up to $15m under tax bill, analysis finds -
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...vings-analysis

As he should. you pay more you get more. Wealth envy does not create thriving societies. Greed is the key baby! At least its out in the open, not like the rest of these politicians that become Senators making $175,000 a year and when they leave office they are millionaires due to years and years of kick backs and backroom deals. How many of your Euro Elite overlords in your governments in Europe are rich AF while preaching to their peasant class that they are fighting for them? LOL

Praise Emperor Trump for he is worthy of PRAISE!!! I will eat a bag of Cheetos in his honor tonight and maybe grab the old lady by the butter gutter.....

[Seamus Fermanagh]

He may not be a Stalinist on economics or a bunch of other issues, but the cult of personality riff works BIG time.

[Devastatin Dave]

He may not be a Stalinist on economics or a bunch of other issues, but the cult of personality riff works BIG time.

Bigly, the term is BIGLY!!! MAGA! I love My Donald BIGLY!!!!

[Strike For The South]

Grope, molestation, gilded age? Back in the day, it was called romance. Don't let these bitches fool you. They use their vaginas much like someone uses a credit card. Any females on here take offence? Good! You liked out having a vagina which is nothing more than a ATM. Empires rise and fall because of vagina. And those with vaginas DESTROY civilizations because of their vaginas (see Merkel, Hillary, May). But thankfully, Kek granted we in the United States Emperor Trump who shall deliver us from these filthy one world sluts who bring foreign rapists and murderers from 3rd century hell holes in order to destroy their own culture and civilizations. Guys, stop being cucks. Find your nads Euroweenies before all your women are in burkas and you live in desolate slums.... Praise Emperor Trump and his wisdom! MAGA!

The short ones are always the angriest.

[Husar]

As he should. you pay more you get more. Wealth envy does not create thriving societies. Greed is the key baby!

What is the difference between wealth envy and greed? And people pay more because they get more and they still get more after paying more.
At some point it will be that you get more and then you get even more....rope or bullets, your choice...


Make America Communist Again!

[Devastatin Dave]

What is the difference between wealth envy and greed? And people pay more because they get more and they still get more after paying more.
At some point it will be that you get more and then you get even more....rope or bullets, your choice...


Make America Communist Again!

Greed by the few elites (Stalin wasn't struggling with his people, neither was Mao, Pol Pot, or any of the Kims in North Korea) does not make the United States communist you silly little German. Just because your country's leadership prefers third world invaders over its own people doesn't give you the right to accuse the United States as becoming communist. Trump was never a communist unlike your leader, honey buns...

[Husar]

[...]doesn't give you the right to accuse the United States as becoming communist.

You have to be very deeply indoctrinated to think that I was accusing anyone...