Trump Thread

[rory_20_uk]

Ryan probably should bow out. He's got the "success" of the tax code in the recent past and can leave on a high to some highly paid non-jobs as a sincere thank you from all the companies whose pockets he's helped line.

Being Donnie's bitch for a few more years is hardly edifying and there little to no chance he'll be listened to, and this will erode his reputation - more than sinking all his principles in working with Donnie in the first place.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Might be the wise choice. Trump thrives on turmoil, spur of the moment decisions, and endless "false" positions while he keeps everything in flux until he must. That cannot be easy to work with. And Ryan is much more planned in style.

Sets him back to private life with 5 years to decide about the Presidency (or sets him up to run in 18 months if Trump punts it for some reason). He is neither a Trump supporter in GOP eyes, nor unwilling to work with the TEA side of the house.

[Hooahguy]

Ryan probably should bow out. He's got the "success" of the tax code in the recent past and can leave on a high to some highly paid non-jobs as a sincere thank you from all the companies whose pockets he's helped line.

Being Donnie's bitch for a few more years is hardly edifying and there little to no chance he'll be listened to, and this will erode his reputation - more than sinking all his principles in working with Donnie in the first place.

Plus it would save any embarrassment should he be defeated in November. Which is an actual possibility.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Plus it would save any embarrassment should he be defeated in November. Which is an actual possibility.

Paul "P90-X" Ryan already embarrassed himself beyond all measures when he started touting 'muscle confusion' workouts and claiming he ran a marathon in three hours.

This is a lame reason to shit on him, but it needs to be said. The only party worse than the 'muscle confusion' party to me are the crazies who think real workouts need to mimic what cavemen did 10,000 years ago like lifting boulders and throwing tree logs. Those people are worse than libertarians.

[Strike For The South]

Paul "P90-X" Ryan already embarrassed himself beyond all measures when he started touting 'muscle confusion' workouts and claiming he ran a marathon in three hours.

This is a lame reason to shit on him, but it needs to be said. The only party worse than the 'muscle confusion' party to me are the crazies who think real workouts need to mimic what cavemen did 10,000 years ago like lifting boulders and throwing tree logs. Those people are worse than libertarians.

Fight me IRL

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Fight me IRL

But for gosh sakes give us a few days do get down bets.

[HopAlongBunny]

Slap on the wrist for lying to special counsel.
Yea! Quiver in fear all ye who would seek to divert Justice from its inevitable course!
30 days in prison and a $20,000 fine:

https://www.npr.org/2018/04/03/59916...-mueller-probe

The actual record may have more impact than the sentence. I'm not sure what the professional consequences are for a lawyer with a criminal record...

[rory_20_uk]

Slap on the wrist for lying to special counsel.
Yea! Quiver in fear all ye who would seek to divert Justice from its inevitable course!
30 days in prison and a $20,000 fine:

https://www.npr.org/2018/04/03/59916...-mueller-probe

The actual record may have more impact than the sentence. I'm not sure what the professional consequences are for a lawyer with a criminal record...

It starts with no job. But since dad-in-law is a billionaire I don't think it really matters too much.

[Shaka_Khan]

Half of Trump's actions make sense if you accept Putin as the real leader of the USA.

[Strike For The South]

Half of Trump's actions make sense if you accept Putin as the real leader of the USA.

No they don't.

[Shaka_Khan]

No they don't.

Yes they do.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

I think the Trump thread has reached it's ultimate level of argumentation...

[Montmorency]

If Trump were directly acting on orders from Putin on a day-to-day basis, we would either already be much farther along into despotism than we currently are, or Trump would have been deposed.

Half of what Trump does makes sense if you accept him as the perfect Republican.

[Shaka_Khan]

If Trump were directly acting on orders from Putin on a day-to-day basis, we would either already be much farther along into despotism than we currently are, or Trump would have been deposed.

Half of what Trump does makes sense if you accept him as the perfect Republican.

Putin wouldn't want Trump to get deposed. Putin wants to continue to use him. One way to achieve this is to make it not too obvious.

[Fragony]

Putin wouldn't want Trump to get deposed. Putin wants to continue to use him. One way to achieve this is to make it not too obvious.

Putin is hardly the chessmaster, he gets too much credit. China is much more dangerous for Russia than the west.

[rory_20_uk]

Putin wouldn't want Trump to get deposed. Putin wants to continue to use him. One way to achieve this is to make it not too obvious.

Trump is taking the USA in a rather isolationist direction and damaging relationships all around the globe by doing things that other countries just didn't think the USA would do - and once it happens under one president it might happen again.

I'm not sure what more Putin would realistically expect in just over a year.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

If Trump were directly acting on orders from Putin on a day-to-day basis, we would either already be much farther along into despotism than we currently are, or Trump would have been deposed.

Half of what Trump does makes sense if you accept him as the perfect Republican.

Fair point. He is about half Republican. In both senses.

[Husar]

It's perfectly sufficient for Putin to have given him a little edge to win the elections by spreading all those fake news.
Trump is probably stupid enough to cause the rest of the chaos all by himself.

In the Skripal case everybody already expelled diplomats while scientists say they can't prove the chemical agent came from Russia.

As dictatorial as Putin may be, what happened to due process and all our other ideals? Did we gaze into the abyss for too long?
Is it time for Germany to go fascist again and start another World War?

[Fragony]

The spreading of fake news is fake news, it is being done all the time. There are some forces that are trying to get us into conflict with Russia and use Russia as an excuse for our own flaws. They don't deserve that. The west should stop slowly creeping up on Russia of course they don't like that, the west is a dealbreaker in every way

[rory_20_uk]

The spreading of fake news is fake news, it is being done all the time. There are some forces that are trying to get us into conflict with Russia and use Russia as an excuse for our own flaws. They don't deserve that. The west should stop slowly creeping up on Russia of course they don't like that, the west is a dealbreaker in every way

Propaganda has been around for practically ever. Generally against the enemies of the state. And Russia has fitted this category for a long time.

Russia should control all lands nearby. Why? Because the Russian way of doing things has an innate right to continue? All the countries near Russia should be forced to do what Russia wants it that way? I don't think we are likely to be amiable with Russia for some time to come. The West never has been since we have had contact with them. Like China their way of doing things is not really compatible.

It's perfectly sufficient for Putin to have given him a little edge to win the elections by spreading all those fake news.
Trump is probably stupid enough to cause the rest of the chaos all by himself.

In the Skripal case everybody already expelled diplomats while scientists say they can't prove the chemical agent came from Russia.

As dictatorial as Putin may be, what happened to due process and all our other ideals? Did we gaze into the abyss for too long?
Is it time for Germany to go fascist again and start another World War?

Espionage hardly works to the criminal standard of law. We do not have, and will not have for decades, what additional intelligence was provided to other countries for them to make the decision. Did, on the balance of probabilities, the Russians do it? Yes, probably. Like the other assassinations of defectors on UK soil.

Due process is and always has been an ideal as opposed to something countries follow all the time. It would be very difficult for it to be any other way.

Given France, Britain and the USA are not currently trying to bankrupt Germany and the USSR is not trying to subvert Germany I hope that there is no need for Fascism at this point in time.

[Husar]

Espionage hardly works to the criminal standard of law. We do not have, and will not have for decades, what additional intelligence was provided to other countries for them to make the decision. Did, on the balance of probabilities, the Russians do it? Yes, probably. Like the other assassinations of defectors on UK soil.

Due process is and always has been an ideal as opposed to something countries follow all the time. It would be very difficult for it to be any other way.

Given France, Britain and the USA are not currently trying to bankrupt Germany and the USSR is not trying to subvert Germany I hope that there is no need for Fascism at this point in time.

I agree that it looks like the Russian MO, but that raises some questions for me:

1. Doesn't that also make it easy to frame them? Some say for example that this is also a nice distraction for May, who keeps failing in the Brexit negotiations.

2. The evidence for WMDs was also available to everyone in 2003 and it still turned out to be fake, so can these secret agencies really be trusted, especially when scientists openly say they can't trace it to Russia (or anyone)? Apparently they can be manipulated for or blinded by political goals.

3. Exactly, the known MO, why is the response so strong now given that Russia has done this before and I don't recall the enormous outrage and expelling of diplomats in the other cases?

4. I also read that the guy was previously jailed for high treason in Russia (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-43291394t), so why would they kill him now in the UK if they could have done it long ago and much more quietly in Russia?

[rory_20_uk]

I agree that it looks like the Russian MO, but that raises some questions for me:

1. Doesn't that also make it easy to frame them? Some say for example that this is also a nice distraction for May, who keeps failing in the Brexit negotiations.

2. The evidence for WMDs was also available to everyone in 2003 and it still turned out to be fake, so can these secret agencies really be trusted, especially when scientists openly say they can't trace it to Russia (or anyone)? Apparently they can be manipulated for or blinded by political goals.

3. Exactly, the known MO, why is the response so strong now given that Russia has done this before and I don't recall the enormous outrage and expelling of diplomats in the other cases?

4. I also read that the guy was previously jailed for high treason in Russia (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-43291394t), so why would they kill him now in the UK if they could have done it long ago and much more quietly in Russia?

1. True. Rather cold blooded and given nothing like this was done in far bleaker times it makes it seem unlikely. Russia almost certainly killed the other spy with polonium. Even when at war with Argentina the war was fought around the islands and not elsewhere. It would also be a massive gamble since how was May to know the EU / USA etc would back her and not ignore the little island and its little problem? Franky, why on earth would they support her?

2. No, the intelligence was fine - i.e. made no conclusions of any sort and it was that piece of shit Tony that lied with his dodgy dossier. Bush was spoiling for a fight after Saddam made his daddy look bad.

3. Things are often overlooked when the two sides are trying to make nice: Germany / Poland etc needed Russian gas not so long ago. Principles are scant solace when one is freezing. Things have changed and the world is awash with cheap gas from fracking making the USA an exporter not an importer. Russian gas can be replaced.

4. I've no idea. I would speculate that Putin expected this to destabilise the UK / EU / USA rather than get all three (with others) to do the same thing. Most commentators appear to agree that Putin really fumbled this one - seeming to unite a lot of the world for offing some washed up spook.

[Pannonian]

I agree that it looks like the Russian MO, but that raises some questions for me:

1. Doesn't that also make it easy to frame them? Some say for example that this is also a nice distraction for May, who keeps failing in the Brexit negotiations.

2. The evidence for WMDs was also available to everyone in 2003 and it still turned out to be fake, so can these secret agencies really be trusted, especially when scientists openly say they can't trace it to Russia (or anyone)? Apparently they can be manipulated for or blinded by political goals.

3. Exactly, the known MO, why is the response so strong now given that Russia has done this before and I don't recall the enormous outrage and expelling of diplomats in the other cases?

4. I also read that the guy was previously jailed for high treason in Russia (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-43291394t), so why would they kill him now in the UK if they could have done it long ago and much more quietly in Russia?

The evidence in 2003 wasn't convincing even at the time, except to politicians who gain from tubthumping. It was clear at the time that Britain entered the war to follow the US, with anything else a distant second. Whatever dodgy dossier was just a facade of an excuse behind the real reason, to follow Bush and hoping to have some degree of influence over what happens next.

[Strike For The South]

Yes they do.

Trump makes sense if you accept the fact he has no idea what he is doing and has no desire to learn.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Trump makes sense if you accept the fact he has no idea what he is doing and has no desire to learn.

From Trump's perspective, that probably comes out as:

"I've demonstrated that I know what I am doing better than any of the rest of those chumps, so why should I waste my time trying to learn from them?"

[Gilrandir]

4. I also read that the guy was previously jailed for high treason in Russia (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-43291394t), so why would they kill him now in the UK if they could have done it long ago and much more quietly in Russia?

As an element of scare tactics - "look what would happen to anyone who would try to defect to the other side. It doesn't matter where they might have fled the sacrosant retaliation will find them anywhere."

[Husar]

As an element of scare tactics - "look what would happen to anyone who would try to defect to the other side. It doesn't matter where they might have fled the sacrosant retaliation will find them anywhere."

Well if it's a scare tactic, then Russia obviously doesn't care about the fallout it gets and we might as well keep the diplomats here. Empty gestures?

[Shaka_Khan]

Trump makes sense if you accept the fact he has no idea what he is doing and has no desire to learn.

I don't deny that. And I'm sure that Putin isn't complaining about it. However, Trump seems to satisfy Putin with matters that Putin really cares about.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Well if it's a scare tactic, then Russia obviously doesn't care about the fallout it gets and we might as well keep the diplomats here. Empty gestures?

If all that happens is a few dozen PNGs then Russia won't really care, nor should it. As far as I can tell, the ONLY thing that has Putin and company upset is that they didn't predict the West would do the PNG thing in as coordinated a fashion as they did and without telegraphing it as much as usual.

[Gilrandir]

Well if it's a scare tactic, then Russia obviously doesn't care about the fallout it gets and we might as well keep the diplomats here. Empty gestures?

It doesn't matter why Russia poisoned the Skripals (btw, "skripal" is a Ukrainian name signifying "violinist"). What matters is that chemical weapons were used by another country to kill YOUR people on YOUR territory.