Trump Thread

[Husar]

I now believe that we are more polarized than at any point in our history prior to 1840 and after the Civil War.

But are you really? Or is it just the "elites"?
To me it seems sometimes, that the deplorables are not quite as polarizing as it may seem. What they want is a radical change away from a political and financial system that preaches success is all and lets you rot under a bridge once you lose your job and it has sucked you dry (e.g. by making you addicted to drugs that you spend all your money on). They do not even vote along party lines but went for Trump when the more mainstream Democrats were too deluded by identity politics to see that Bernie was their better candidate.

Of course there are some in the Trump camp who are, as I said earlier, still convinced that more capitalism will somehow improve their lives again, because they're too deluded to realize that they're literally useless for capitalists at this point. But overall I feel like the polarizing thing these days is mainly that the better-offs want the capitalist system to persist and make some cosmetic changes to the degree to which people are required to smile when they see a gay couple or a black person without actually improving anyone's financial situation considerably. Whereas the poorer strata are starting to realize more and more that these identity politics are just a distraction from the ongoing impoverization of more and more lower strata and the ongoing financial polarization of society while having money is more and more required to yield actual political power. In other words, they realized the growth of the oligarchic structures.

In other words, I should have put my prediction in the predictions thread about capitalism and where it's going leading to some kind of poor peoples' revolution at some point if noone stops it. The only problem is that in this case the only candidate the poor people had to go for was an idiotic billionaire con-man. But then again with a school system where only expensive private schools can provide good education and noone is really lifted up, how could you expect the poor and lesser educated to make an educated choice? Good thing that the new secretary of education wants to privatize the system even more for her own gain while probably making it even worse for the poor.

Accelerationism indeed. If this continues, the capitalist speedster may hit the wall even sooner than I would have expected. It may just take a while for the die hards to realize how this administration is duping them due to their low level of education and lack of self reflection in a country where self-advertizing and shallow, outward appearance are everything.

Am I too harsh? Too wrong? I think there is no new polarization, it's just the same old class warfare that Marx described, except that it has been waged by the rich on the poor for a while and the poor took a long time to realize it and fight back (see low education levels). The media in the US (espeically Fox I guess) is always quick to cry "Class warfare!" when the poor want something, but when there's a policy that benefits the rich at the expense of the poor, it's described as necessary for the economy...

[rory_20_uk]

I agree that this is nothing new - you could be referring to the USA in c. 1910 before the Trusts were broken up, there were no food standards, housing standards nor meaningful unions.

For the lower orders things improved considerably over the next c. 50 years due to both technology and the mass wealth transfers as the rest of the world was destroyed in two world wars and so the structural problems were not focused on. Now the rich are getting richer and not enough is getting to the masses so there is dissent as the browns / yellows / blacks are doing all the jobs the blue collar workers relied on for their middle class house with the picket fence. Free trade was fine as long as the world followed the Colonial model of wealth flowing into the USA but now that has also reversed.

And the answer, as is so often the case, is an ill-defined external threat coming in. Be that immigrants or the "easily won" trade war on other foreigners. Rather reminiscent of 1984.

[Montmorency]

But are you really? Or is it just the "elites"?
To me it seems sometimes, that the deplorables are not quite as polarizing as it may seem. What they want is a radical change away from a political and financial system that preaches success is all and lets you rot under a bridge once you lose your job and it has sucked you dry (e.g. by making you addicted to drugs that you spend all your money on). They do not even vote along party lines but went for Trump when the more mainstream Democrats were too deluded by identity politics to see that Bernie was their better candidate.

Of course there are some in the Trump camp who are, as I said earlier, still convinced that more capitalism will somehow improve their lives again, because they're too deluded to realize that they're literally useless for capitalists at this point. But overall I feel like the polarizing thing these days is mainly that the better-offs want the capitalist system to persist and make some cosmetic changes to the degree to which people are required to smile when they see a gay couple or a black person without actually improving anyone's financial situation considerably. Whereas the poorer strata are starting to realize more and more that these identity politics are just a distraction from the ongoing impoverization of more and more lower strata and the ongoing financial polarization of society while having money is more and more required to yield actual political power. In other words, they realized the growth of the oligarchic structures.

In other words, I should have put my prediction in the predictions thread about capitalism and where it's going leading to some kind of poor peoples' revolution at some point if noone stops it. The only problem is that in this case the only candidate the poor people had to go for was an idiotic billionaire con-man. But then again with a school system where only expensive private schools can provide good education and noone is really lifted up, how could you expect the poor and lesser educated to make an educated choice? Good thing that the new secretary of education wants to privatize the system even more for her own gain while probably making it even worse for the poor. .

Accelerationism indeed. If this continues, the capitalist speedster may hit the wall even sooner than I would have expected. It may just take a while for the die hards to realize how this administration is duping them due to their low level of education and lack of self reflection in a country where self-advertizing and shallow, outward appearance are everything.

Am I too harsh? Too wrong? I think there is no new polarization, it's just the same old class warfare that Marx described, except that it has been waged by the rich on the poor for a while and the poor took a long time to realize it and fight back (see low education levels). The media in the US (espeically Fox I guess) is always quick to cry "Class warfare!" when the poor want something, but when there's a policy that benefits the rich at the expense of the poor, it's described as necessary for the economy...

Bernie Sanders adheres to the same concept of "identity politics" as the mainstream Democrats, if you consider that to mean emphasizing subaltern perspectives and policy implications for their groups. Indeed, once blacks and Hispanics had time to learn about Sanders, he became more popular among them than with white people. The argument is that he means it in a practical way, while other Democrats tend to be opportunists

The overwhelming share of Trump's vote was cast by party-line Republicans and pseudo-independents. Has anyone shown more than a handful of Democratic > Trump voters (not Bush > Obama > Trump voters), or at a higher rate than in previous elections?

Trump was and is well-liked by the middle and upper classes, stop imagining his voters as destitute hillbillies. If you want to make the case that a strong economic-reform platform can peel some of them away and neutralize the worst instincts of enough of the rest, that's reasonable, but don't resort to fairytales about who they are or how they view the world.

[Husar]

Bernie Sanders adheres to the same concept of "identity politics" as the mainstream Democrats, if you consider that to mean emphasizing subaltern perspectives and policy implications for their groups. Indeed, once blacks and Hispanics had time to learn about Sanders, he became more popular among them than with white people. The argument is that he means it in a practical way, while other Democrats tend to be opportunists

Well, I'm also pro identity politics in the wider sense, but I think these aims should be realized as part of a wieder focus on equality and same rights for everyone and not be the only front goals of a bunch of tiny, selfish movements that are only concerned about their own niche issues with politicians catering to all of them individually. That's what made some poor white people feel disenfranchized and maybe not even entirely unjustified.

The overwhelming share of Trump's vote was cast by party-line Republicans and pseudo-independents. Has anyone shown more than a handful of Democratic > Trump voters (not Bush > Obama > Trump voters), or at a higher rate than in previous elections?

Trump was and is well-liked by the middle and upper classes, stop imagining his voters as destitute hillbillies. If you want to make the case that a strong economic-reform platform can peel some of them away and neutralize the worst instincts of enough of the rest, that's reasonable, but don't resort to fairytales about who they are or how they view the world.

I think that goes largely without saying, but I thought US politics were all about that part of the people who may actually consider switching their votes. After the election everybody talked about how he got the votes of the disenfranchised workers in the rust belt or midwest, so they're the ones I'm focusing on since their needs would probably be better served by Sanders' politics than by Trump's.

Plus I would expect Sanders' ideas to give the African Americans more social mobility and so on. Utopia would be close indeed!

[Montmorency]

I think that goes largely without saying, but I thought US politics were all about that part of the people who may actually consider switching their votes.

Well, in theory. But party-line voting is well-entrenched in our culture, and the real swing vote is among the non-voting population.

I don't know that it is 'elites' that are polarized here so much as it is those who are politically aware and awake and involved.

That's us. We're all tourists here.

The Org isn't an ivory tower, but - it's some kind of tower, right? What's the material?

I agree that Bernie was the better candidate, especially up against Trump. Had the Dems put him in the lead, it is possible that the narrow victory would have gone the other way.

I don't know that it is 'elites' that are polarized here so much as it is those who are politically aware and awake and involved. The USA has always had a large mass of folks who really don't care much about politics at all, pursuing individual economic and social goals while ignoring the politisphere.

One interpretation is that because Sanders is relatively straightforward and honest about his principle and proposals and history, he has an inherent advantage over pragmatically-shifting establishment politicians, the kind Trump can run circles around because he speaks a whole different language.

[rory_20_uk]

The poison in the UK and the USA is First Past The Vote systems. No compromise, no grey areas and always follow your Clan otherwise the Other Lot will win.

[Montmorency]

The Government Is Ordering Toddlers to Appear in Immigration Court Alone

Lindsay Toczylowski, the executive director of Immigrant Defenders Law Center in Los Angeles, said she and her team recently represented an unaccompanied 3-year-old in court, “and the child — in the middle of the hearing — started climbing up on the table.”

“I can’t describe to you the room I was in with the toddlers,” Colleen Kraft, the president of the American Academy of Pediatrics, told CNN after visiting one of the shelters. “Normally toddlers are rambunctious and running around. We had one child just screaming and crying, and the others were really silent. And this is not normal activity or brain development with these children.”

Meanwhile, the broader legal situation is in flux. A federal judge Tuesday night commanded the White House to reunify families within 14 days if the child is under 5 and 30 days if the child is older. The Justice Department has not indicated whether it will appeal. Attorneys who are involved in the cases said it’s unclear how the judge’s order will work in practice, and when and how it could take effect.

https://www.texastribune.org/2018/06...ourt-alone/amp

Yet children who are just arriving at care facilities are still not connected with their families, said Megan McKenna, a spokeswoman for Kids in Need of Defense. She said the children arrive at care facilities without a parent’s tracking number, and parents don’t tend to have their kids’ numbers.

After kids arrive in care facilities, HHS officials work on finding a “sponsor” to care for the child, such as a parent, guardian, family member or family friend. Historically, unaccompanied minors — who tended to be teens — found a sponsor in about a month and a half.

However, Rachel Prandini, a staff attorney with the Immigrant Legal Resource Center, said finding a sponsor is more difficult now given recent fears that stepping forward to accept a child could trigger a sponsor’s deportation.

In April, HHS entered into an agreement with law enforcement officials that requires sponsors and adult family members to submit fingerprints and be subject to a thorough immigration and criminal background check.

HHS officials said the process is meant to protect the child.

It’s impossible to know how many children have begun deportation proceedings, Tzamaras said. “There have been reports of kids younger than 3 years old and others as old as 17.”

[...]

She said in a statement that the court’s work is vital: “This is not traffic court. A mistake on an asylum case can result in jail, torture or a death sentence,” Tabaddor said. “We are a nation of laws. We value fairness, justice and transparency.”

[Montmorency]

The Government Is Ordering Toddlers to Appear in Immigration Court Alone

One of these is not a genuine image of a mass trial.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Well, in theory. But party-line voting is well-entrenched in our culture, and the real swing vote is among the non-voting population.



That's us. We're all tourists here.

The Org isn't an ivory tower, but - it's some kind of tower, right? What's the material?



One interpretation is that because Sanders is relatively straightforward and honest about his principle and proposals and history, he has an inherent advantage over pragmatically-shifting establishment politicians, the kind Trump can run circles around because he speaks a whole different language.

Good comment about the real swing vote being the mostly uninvolved.

And I agree with you about Sanders' honesty. He has had this outlook on politics and governance his entire adult life and pursued it as vigorously as the times/public allowed. I may disagree with his policy goals, but I do admire his honesty.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

But are you really? Or is it just the "elites"?
To me it seems sometimes, that the deplorables are not quite as polarizing as it may seem. What they want is a radical change away from a political and financial system that preaches success is all and lets you rot under a bridge once you lose your job and it has sucked you dry (e.g. by making you addicted to drugs that you spend all your money on). They do not even vote along party lines but went for Trump when the more mainstream Democrats were too deluded by identity politics to see that Bernie was their better candidate...

I agree that Bernie was the better candidate, especially up against Trump. Had the Dems put him in the lead, it is possible that the narrow victory would have gone the other way.

I don't know that it is 'elites' that are polarized here so much as it is those who are politically aware and awake and involved. The USA has always had a large mass of folks who really don't care much about politics at all, pursuing individual economic and social goals while ignoring the politisphere.