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Thread: Trump Thread

  1. #2791

    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post
    I don't think there is any link between the Greek / Roman / elsewhere tolerance of homosexuality and that of the modern era.
    Just to be pedantic, the Greco-Romans denigrated adult homoeroticism.

    What is a "demerit" changes over time.
    Tough though it may be to hear - it's admittedly fantastic to not have to think about these things, no skin off my back - but measure is unceasing; there is no embalming a zeitgeist. Part of being a mature polity is constantly reassessing historical personages, especially the metaphorically monumental. You can't immanentize an eschaton without an eschaton. If in the course of time we should discover that Harriet Tubman was a serial killer who tortured and cannibalized fugitive slaves along the Underground Railroad, she'll lose some of her stature.

    I imagine most in the West would view Turing as a hero, and not care that he was gay (more likely to be outraged that it was a problem) and only slightly care he was left-leaning. At the time these two were far more important than what he achieved in maths and to the winning of the war.
    I don't understand your point vis-a-vis Alan Turing. It sounds like you think other people (who are "these two?") are more deserving of statues? For all I know, maybe - but I'm not sure anyone has the position of honoring Alan Turing to the exclusion of others who may warrant public recognition.

    Paedophiles are reviled as evil, criminals and probably mentally ill - even looking at pictures where no abuse is taking place is sufficient to be branded a deviant criminal, although I doubt most wish to have the desires they have.
    We tend to emphasize the fact of the act over the mens in evaluating people, I believe. We don't excuse someone for killing just because they really really want to, and might even condemn them more for it (certain popular media notwithstanding). Moreover, most people are especially sensitive toward (sex) crimes against children. While an erotic attraction in itself might arguably be morally neutral, and crimes against persons are conceptually and practically distinct from crimes of consumption/possession (of pornographic content), it is AFAIK the case that viewers and collectors of this content are very disproportionately likely to also be abusers and producers, and that the consumption and collection of the content is often implicated in mutual, material support to primary producers and distributors of original content. Furthermore there are implications of the transference of values from consumption generating future or subtle harms by the viewer such that it may in be society's interest to regulate even without components of support to primary producers or concurrent interpersonal crimes. There are edge cases in terms of the application of law, such as the theoretical isolated viewing of a nudie, or the existence of the vast body of auto-erotica by teenagers, but these cases don't make up a large part of the facts behind prosecutorial decisions I believe. The cases that do tend to receive attention therefore are the ones that more clearly have a corrupted moral standing and nexus to harm.
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  2. #2792

    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Oh. My. God.

    !!!!!!!!

    (I actually thought this was satire voiced by an impersonator at first, maybe JL Cauvin)

    Add this clip [pretty good Biden campaign ad] to the pile of things that should instantly end a normal career.

    https://twitter.com/Jerri_Lynn25/sta...84176910405635


    Quote Originally Posted by Hooahguy View Post
    Nadler says that Barr deserves to be impeached, but that pursuing it would be a "waste of time" because of the Republican-controlled Senate.

    He's not wrong in the sense that its not going to go anywhere, but I feel that he and many Dems in the House are focused on the politics than upholding the constitution. And they arent wrong per say, since if you look at the bigger picture we have 120,000+ Covid deaths with no end in sight, an economy in recession if not depression, long lines for unemployment as benefits start to run out, and people in the streets protesting racial justice. Going through another impeachment that will inevitably end in obstruction and failure is just not a priority at all for most people and I think it would become an election liability. Part of me agrees with this point of view but I cant help but feel like they are shirking their constitutional responsibility.
    Come to think of it, it's pretty easy to circle back impeachment into basically all our ongoing news events. What, is the House very busy these days, waiting for the Republicans to maybe regain interest in legislating over contemporary national challenges? They should be making war and making clear that it's war, not holding meta-procedural debates at a murmur. Impeach.
    Last edited by Montmorency; 06-23-2020 at 07:04.
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  3. #2793
    Stranger in a strange land Moderator Hooahguy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Russia Secretly Offered Afghan Militants Bounties to Kill U.S. Troops, Intelligence Says

    American intelligence officials have concluded that a Russian military intelligence unit secretly offered bounties to Taliban-linked militants for killing coalition forces in Afghanistan — including targeting American troops — amid the peace talks to end the long-running war there, according to officials briefed on the matter.

    The United States concluded months ago that the Russian unit, which has been linked to assassination attempts and other covert operations in Europe intended to destabilize the West or take revenge on turncoats, had covertly offered rewards for successful attacks last year.
    ...

    The intelligence finding was briefed to President Trump, and the White House’s National Security Council discussed the problem at an interagency meeting in late March, the officials said. Officials developed a menu of potential options — starting with making a diplomatic complaint to Moscow and a demand that it stop, along with an escalating series of sanctions and other possible responses, but the White House has yet to authorize any step, the officials said.
    The ads that come out of this are going to be incredible. I guess the Dems are the party that supports the military now?
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  4. #2794
    Ni dieu ni maître! Senior Member a completely inoffensive name's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump Thread

    I think people read too much into Roberts as some master navigator with his finger always on the pulse of just how far he can go in making conservative decisions.
    The dude has been working in the legal system his whole life and from what I can tell he is just a conservative dude who believes heavily in the legal process and the prestige of the SCOTUS.

    If any of these conservative judges were full on shills, they wouldn't have a track record of shifting left: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features...hey-get-older/

    Roberts is not a political actor, and attempts to divine the output on any of these cases is always buried once the verdict is given and the ex post facto arguments come out. Of course he wouldn't push the abortion law at this moment...
    No matter how well the Democrats do, they won't have the political strength in the Senate to remove him or anyone else from the court. At most Biden will replace Ginsburg and maybe Breyer, the conservatives will stay on until they die or another GOP president is elected, so if Roberts really wanted to kill Roe v Wade there was nothing stopping him from doing so right here and right now.

    Like the rest of the conservative movement, Roberts is getting his reputation tarnished with the guilt by association that follows from him simply following his values during a Trump presidency. He is aware of the road he has to navigate in order to maintain the reputation of the institution he has spent is whole life in, but like all people he is flawed with his own biases and is not some stoic sage that can totally separate himself from his outputs.

    @strike would have better understanding of whether his written arguments are in good faith or not.
    Last edited by a completely inoffensive name; 06-30-2020 at 06:09.
    In all these papers we see a love of honest work, an aversion to shams, a caution in the enunciation of conclusions, a distrust of rash generalizations and speculations based on uncertain premises. He was never anxious to add one more guess on doubtful matters in the hope of hitting the truth, or what might pass as such for a time, but was always ready to take infinite pains in the most careful testing of every theory. With these qualities was united a modesty which forbade the pushing of his own claims and desired no reputation except the unsought tribute of competent judges.

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  5. #2795
    Ni dieu ni maître! Senior Member a completely inoffensive name's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    There is a certain etiquette, if that's the right word, that Roberts values above ones like Thomas or Alito.

    Maybe we could put it as Roberts being a partisan, an ideological, and a strategic actor, with the lifetime sinecure of the Supreme Court affording him the opportunity to make independent decisions on the basis of his vision alone of what is right, what is best for country or party, and what befits his office.
    I guess my contention is that we should strike out 'ideological' from the list. He certainly has his partisan bend but the Obamacare case and his constant "do better" rulings to the Trump admin demonstrate he is respectful of the process above whatever slant he possesses. My point is that that's a much more respectable account to bestow than what the left is currently trying to portray.

    The main contention for his decisions being activists and ideological is the disregard for 'stare decisis' to achieve GOP/business favored outcomes. But I have to say Monty, the left really needs to move beyond venerating the practice of 'stare decisis' as applied to SCOTUS in the same way we have been moving beyond the Fillibuster in the Senate. Both are practices and not rules codified into our system. As far as I am concerned, there are many just as bad decisions within the US legal code that stare decisis protects than otherwise. The mid 20th courts disregarded precedent in rulings we now consider landmark cases for the better.

    The authority of SCOTUS decisions applied to lower court rulings should remain in place, but as its place at the top of the chain, SCOTUS shouldn't really be held to its own problematic history of rulings. If we accept that limitation on ourselves we give the reactionaries another avenue to abuse when they are in power and then shackle the left when they are not. SCOTUS is now politicized to a degree we have to toss it out and either accept a new political norm of more rapidly changing instructions from the top or as I have suggested in the past we have to further remove political actors from deciding who gets to sit among the nine.
    In all these papers we see a love of honest work, an aversion to shams, a caution in the enunciation of conclusions, a distrust of rash generalizations and speculations based on uncertain premises. He was never anxious to add one more guess on doubtful matters in the hope of hitting the truth, or what might pass as such for a time, but was always ready to take infinite pains in the most careful testing of every theory. With these qualities was united a modesty which forbade the pushing of his own claims and desired no reputation except the unsought tribute of competent judges.

  6. #2796

    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrandir View Post
    Perhaps it is because these others break the law more often?
    On the topic of racist government violence, you should be leerier about suggesting 'The police are brutal toward everyone, but maybe they should be more so toward blacks because they're uniquely dangerous.'

    And in my opinion, the police reaction is a natural thing to happen in a country where firearms could be borne by almost everyone.
    And yet, most of the civilian firearms are held by white conservatives, who tend to receive the most deferential or light touch. Which is not just a problem of fairness but one of institutional integrity as police departments are notoriously overrun by Neo-Nazis and the like.

    I could offer half a dozen factors off the top of my head (and after putting on my thinking hat as many more) that could be seen by conspiracy-minded people and blown out of proprotion by the media (mind you, I don't know much either of the victim or of perpetrators, but all kinds of factors may be found and given a proper slant):

    1) The victim was a Russian-speaker and the cops were Ukrainian-speakers.
    The media: "Ukrainian nazis of whom current law enforcement bodies consist rape a Russian-speaking woman. Let's disband the police."
    2) The victim was a Ukrainian-speaker and the cops were Russian-speakers.
    The media: "Russian-speaking cops who are FSB agents under cover rape a Ukrainian patriot. Let's disband the police."
    If the victim was of a different ethnicity from the offender, the possibility of a hate crime should be evaluated. Especially in the context of ongoing violent national conflict.

    You didn't read carefully what I wrote. I repeat: the perpetrators should be punished. BUT: I see no reason in making a saint or martyr out of an average рецидивист.
    Your assumption is not the case.

    As for homework, look up "structural racism" and "overpolicing."


    I'm put in mind of this old ditty.



    Маленькие дети!
    Ни за что на свете
    Не ходите в Африку,
    В Африку гулять!
    В Африке акулы,
    В Африке гориллы,
    В Африке большие
    Злые крокодилы
    Будут вас кусать,
    Бить и обижать,-
    Не ходите, дети,
    В Африку гулять.

    В Африке разбойник,
    В Африке злодей,
    В Африке ужасный
    Бар-ма-лей!

    Он бегает по Африке
    И кушает детей —
    Гадкий, нехороший, жадный Бармалей!

    И папочка, и мамочка
    Под деревом сидят,
    И папочка, и мамочка
    Детям говорят:

    «Африка ужасна,
    Да-да-да!
    Африка опасна,
    Да-да-да!
    Не ходите в Африку,
    Дети, никогда!»

    Quote Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name View Post
    I guess my contention is that we should strike out 'ideological' from the list. He certainly has his partisan bend but the Obamacare case and his constant "do better" rulings to the Trump admin demonstrate he is respectful of the process above whatever slant he possesses. My point is that that's a much more respectable account to bestow than what the left is currently trying to portray.
    I don't understand. These episodes indicate the opposite. And why do you strike out "ideological"? That current should be evident whether or not you approve of it.

    The main contention for his decisions being activists and ideological is the disregard for 'stare decisis' to achieve GOP/business favored outcomes. But I have to say Monty, the left really needs to move beyond venerating the practice of 'stare decisis' as applied to SCOTUS in the same way we have been moving beyond the Fillibuster in the Senate. Both are practices and not rules codified into our system. As far as I am concerned, there are many just as bad decisions within the US legal code that stare decisis protects than otherwise. The mid 20th courts disregarded precedent in rulings we now consider landmark cases for the better.
    That's like a mirror image of the anti-Democrat reasoning that if Democrats complain about Trump undermining American foreign policy, they're a bunch of reckless imperialists. What's going on here, over and over, is that Roberts makes pretensions to calling "balls and strikes", respecting tradition, precedent, and constitutional and statutory text, but will happily employ flimsy pretexts and ignore his stated principles to rule against laws or doctrines that protect labor/civil rights or hinder Republican power.

    Whether or not liberal judges should act this way - and I don't really care right now to examine the balance of judging and revising precedent on the merits of legality or justice versus promoting stability in governance - is a separate question from how to evaluate Roberts and his court.
    Last edited by Montmorency; 07-06-2020 at 02:54.
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  7. #2797
    Stranger in a strange land Moderator Hooahguy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump Thread

    So the latest Gallup poll has Trump's approval rating at just 38%. He is at at 91% with Republicans, 33% with independents (which is down 10 points from earlier this year), and just 2% with Democrats. Yikes. According to the poll its the widest partisan gap ever so thats something. But man, that 91% approval rating with Republicans. They are really all-in aren't they?
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  8. #2798

    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name View Post
    He had no restrictions or repercussions from ruling in a more overtly conservative opinion but he chose not to rule that way. An ideological man places his ideas above the process at hand
    Yes, that's the point! The thread through his rulings that have disappointed Republicans is 'give me a better pretext next time.' The exact point I made is that there are some limits to Roberts' process - it's up to us to reason through them.

    His ruling indicate a partisanship toward a side, but I just don't think you can simultaneously be 'ideological' and 'strategic' at the same time. To be pragmatic in making slight changes over time is by definition a reformist, incrementalist attitude not a radical ideological one.
    I don't understand the dichotomy you're proposing, let alone what "reformer vs. radical" has to do with it.

    Putting it this way, an overtly ideological conservative wouldn't compromise on such an issue as abortion, to an ideological conservative abortion is murder and there is no justification for keeping the practice legal in any way shape or form, precedence be damned. I think you are trying to have it all, he is somehow a mastermind of both pragmatism and activism, of process and ideology.
    No? That he tries to juggle multiple priorities according to his own worldview. That he's not as rigidly absolutist on some things as Alito or Thomas does not make him non-ideological.

    Just because he is a hypocrite doesn't mean we should default to admonishing him for rejecting stare decisis, or smear with the label 'activist'. We should be focusing on the importance of having more liberal justices on the court to overturn bad conservative rulings, so to argue in this manner only hurts the left's case in the long run. That's the extent of my point. Label Roberts as a liar for saying one thing and doing another, but lets not act as if stare decisis in itself is somehow good and not to be messed with.
    OK, but that's kind of orthogonal to the issues I was raising, in defining Roberts as a political operator (c.f. Barr).

    No. How you view the role of the court and what its limitations ought to be, would definitely color your evaluation. I can't admonish Roberts for doing what I would like to see done to policies I disagree with. If I was in Robert's shoes, I would write any argument to remove Qualified Immunity in its current form. I can criticism him on the decisions themselves, but not the method in which the ruling was given.
    This is new to me, since I thought you said you valued sound jurisprudence for its own sake. Many on the far left would disagree with me - I showed you some such - and argue that judges need to be totally results-oriented and that we just need to, to the extent we have a system with judges, pick judges compatible with radical ideals, but personally I certainly would criticize the Roberts court on independent grounds for producing decisions that are dismissive or contortive of the letter of the law. Rectitude matters to me; interpretation needs to fall within some outer bounds of legal text.



    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrandir View Post
    So your next hometask: re-read my post on it and try to explain why having disproportionate number of blacks in the police (as the statistics have it) results in the boost in the excessive use of force (as you claim).
    Aside from blacks not being disproportionately represented in police, how can you justify your assumption that POC police won't participate in police maltreatment of POC communities?

    Aren't preventive measures a kind of self-defense in advance?
    As it happens, no, basically never under any system of laws or rules that I am aware of. Ukrainians might recognize it as the logic of a Stalin or a Putin however.

    Perhaps it is because there are more whites in the USA? And I'm more than sure that most guns owned by non-whites (who are poorer) are non-registered and illegal.
    Conservative white men own more guns than there are conservative white men. Plenty of "urban" black people are legal gun owners, for better or worse. There are very few states in the country with any requirement to register guns for normal possession; there are more states that ban registries than maintain them in any form.

    So a disproportionate percentage of blacks in the police work back to back with Neo-Nazis and never mind it, moreover they learn from them to mistreart their race?
    Exactly so. There are many benefits to having non-white (or women) patrol cops, but they still act within the same corrupted and corruptible institutions.

    My post was to show that sometimes a crime is just a crime so there is no need to try to see some ideology behind it. Or, alternately, if you wish to see ideology behind every crime it won't be hard to find it.
    When actions are consistently racially-biased in practice, it can be exceedingly difficult to distinguish whether any single incident arises from this bias or from another cause. It becomes a pure distraction to try to split these hairs.

    Painting the victim as an angel (by the way, he was arrested on suspicion of forgery - was it just an unjustified suspicion or did he have fake money on him?) and burying him in a golden casket is quite enough to engender my assumption. If you see it differently, it is your assumption. I believe mine isn't worse than yours.
    He was arrested on suspicion of intentionally submitting a counterfeit $20 bill for payment, which accusation was without any evidence known to the police at the time and in abstract sounds beneath the notice of authorities, let alone the intervention of multiple police units. The business owner went on record that he knew and liked Floyd well and that the call to police was made by a young and inexperienced employee, a call the employer would have countermanded had he been present.

    Who says he was an angel? The George Floyd incident was incorporated into the Movement for Black Lives - not the Movement for the Sanctified George Floyd - because it was another representation of the societal adverse treatment for which so many demand redress.

    I remember you defending the character of Stepan Bandera as Ukrainian national hero and sometime-anti Nazi - but he was indisputably a much worse person than George Floyd could ever have been. If one can very charitably extend you the opportunity to sublimate a flawed person into the ideal of national liberation or identity, then you should be able to do the same with a mere reference point in a valid list of grievances.

    So you think this children's poem is racist? And Africa wasn't used for the sake of rhythm? So if the poetic meter required "America" or "Asia" Chukovsky would still use "Africa" because he was a racist?
    Give me a break, this is a poem written a hundred years ago about how children should not go to Africa because it is awful, dangerous, and full of scary animals and cannibals. The idea that someone could have written this poem, which contains so many familiar contemporary tropes about Africa and its inhabitants, about America or any place other than the "Dark Continent" is

    This cultural artifact, perpetuated across generations, is exactly the kind of obscurantist prejudice absorbed by the general population of Europe at the time and even to this day. It has no other context or genealogy and your resistance to acknowledging racism puzzles me.

    But his violent and unjustified death doesn't atone for his crimes committed against other people who did nothing to deserve it either. But his violent and unjustified death doesn't atone for his crimes committed against other people who did nothing to deserve it either. Consequently, no eulogies for him, no stories of how good and merciful and nice he had been, no golden caskets and knee-bending. No matter what race he was.
    Whether he atoned for his crimes (by most accounts he was an upstanding citizen since he got out of prison) is both irrelevant and not something you seem placed to determine. The reality of it is that which cases get the most attention is a matter of timing and media coverage, not according to some private hierarchy of virtue and innocence. Your fixation on Floyd's character misses the point.
    Last edited by Montmorency; 07-07-2020 at 04:56.
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  9. #2799
    Stranger in a strange land Moderator Hooahguy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Should someone tell Junior that there's a typo in the title of his new book? Guess they call him the dumbest son for a reason.

    But on a more serious note, Trump's ICE is starting a pilot program to train civilians to arrest undocumented immigrants. Perhaps their uniforms should be brown?
    Last edited by Hooahguy; 07-12-2020 at 01:45.
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  10. #2800
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Hooahguy View Post
    Should someone tell Junior that there's a typo in the title of his new book? Guess they call him the dumbest son for a reason.

    But on a more serious note, Trump's ICE is starting a pilot program to train civilians to arrest undocumented immigrants. Perhaps their uniforms should be brown?
    I thought the tradition was to use whatever uniforms were left over, in bulk, from the last colonial deployment that was cancelled...
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

    "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." -- H. L. Mencken

  11. #2801

    Default Re: Trump Thread

    November 2020.

    Vitiate Man.

    History repeats the old conceits
    The glib replies, the same defeats


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