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Thread: Trump Thread

  1. #2371
    Apr 04-Nov 11 Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump Thread

    I was just about to post the same thing Monty. It is a horrific example of his presidency.

    The terrorist attack in NZ is beyond a tragedy and is an encapsulation of the radicalization of young white men in the west. His manifesto has been described as incoherent, it is only the sense that it lacks a structure. It certainly has a narrative and that narrative is white supremacy. That is something that should be stated unequivocally. This is a far right terror attack committed by a white supremacist. People should not be misled by his manifestos non sequiters or general lack of sense. His purpose was very clear.

    Coming together is good but only means something if this kind of terror is named and persued with the same energy that Islamic terror is. Anything less is lip service meant to assuage valid anger. In fact it should be pursued with more vigor because it is the bigger threat with quasi state backing.
    Last edited by Strike For The South; 03-16-2019 at 03:20.
    There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford

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  2. #2372

    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Strike For The South View Post
    I was just about to post the same thing Monty. It is a horrific example of his presidency.

    The terrorist attack in NZ is beyond a tragedy and is an encapsulation of the radicalization of young white men in the west. His manifesto has been described as incoherent, it is only the sense that it lacks a structure. It certainly has a narrative and that narrative is white supremacy. That is something that should be stated unequivocally. This is a far right terror attack committed by a white supremacist. People should not be misled by his manifestos non sequiters or general lack of sense. His purpose was very clear.

    Coming together is good but only means something if this kind of terror is named and persued with the same energy that Islamic terror is. Anything less is lip service meant to assuage valid anger. In fact it should be pursued with more vigor because it is the bigger threat with quasi state backing.
    It doesn't lack a structure. It's structured like the kind of memes they post on the chans, including 8chan - the home base of at least one attacker, with all the injokes and the like. I like the phrase "Pepe with a gun": IRL shitposting to confuse the liberal globalist cucks and redpill the normies. (The livestream attacker even tried to choreograph the attack according to meme meta.)

    Anyway, right-wing Jews have a predictably genocide-ready response to the attack: 'When Muslims attack Jews, the media doesn't report it. Like all the times Palestinians stab Jews in synagogues, it's their favorite thing to do.'
    Last edited by Montmorency; 03-16-2019 at 04:46.
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  3. #2373
    Ni dieu ni maître! Senior Member a completely inoffensive name's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump Thread

    The report has been submitted. We are in the endgame now.
    In all these papers we see a love of honest work, an aversion to shams, a caution in the enunciation of conclusions, a distrust of rash generalizations and speculations based on uncertain premises. He was never anxious to add one more guess on doubtful matters in the hope of hitting the truth, or what might pass as such for a time, but was always ready to take infinite pains in the most careful testing of every theory. With these qualities was united a modesty which forbade the pushing of his own claims and desired no reputation except the unsought tribute of competent judges.

  4. #2374

    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name View Post
    The report has been submitted. We are in the endgame now.
    Considering all the activity on the back-end, including ongoing cooperation from Rick Gates (Manafort's deputy) and cooperation from figures like Michael Cohen and Michael Flynn that has not been used in prosecutions yet (with the exception of the upcoming trial of Bijan Kian), and the reports from 2 weeks ago that the Special Counsel has renewed its funding through September, I suspect there will be a lot more going on with the investigative side of things. This report should be fodder for further House investigations however.
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  5. #2375
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    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    Considering all the activity on the back-end, including ongoing cooperation from Rick Gates (Manafort's deputy) and cooperation from figures like Michael Cohen and Michael Flynn that has not been used in prosecutions yet (with the exception of the upcoming trial of Bijan Kian), and the reports from 2 weeks ago that the Special Counsel has renewed its funding through September, I suspect there will be a lot more going on with the investigative side of things. This report should be fodder for further House investigations however.
    My pessimism is coming out today, I think neither this nor any follow up investigations will have an impact unless the treason arguement is clear and made publicly available.

    Election day 2020 is the repudiation of corrupt populism and a turn back towards a real experiment or we find ourselves in a fundamentally different country than we thought.
    In all these papers we see a love of honest work, an aversion to shams, a caution in the enunciation of conclusions, a distrust of rash generalizations and speculations based on uncertain premises. He was never anxious to add one more guess on doubtful matters in the hope of hitting the truth, or what might pass as such for a time, but was always ready to take infinite pains in the most careful testing of every theory. With these qualities was united a modesty which forbade the pushing of his own claims and desired no reputation except the unsought tribute of competent judges.

  6. #2376

    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name View Post
    My pessimism is coming out today, I think neither this nor any follow up investigations will have an impact unless the treason arguement is clear and made publicly available.

    Election day 2020 is the repudiation of corrupt populism and a turn back towards a real experiment or we find ourselves in a fundamentally different country than we thought.
    Sure, but as a narrow procedural prediction I just want to caution that everything Trump-related is one big set of investigations permeating the whole federal apparatus responsible, the findings of the special counsel metastasized these, and they will continue long after Trump leaves office. The Roger Stone trial is in November, and multiple of the big names convicted so far (such as named above) will continue to cooperate on future prosecutions.
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  7. #2377
    Ni dieu ni maître! Senior Member a completely inoffensive name's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    Sure, but as a narrow procedural prediction I just want to caution that everything Trump-related is one big set of investigations permeating the whole federal apparatus responsible, the findings of the special counsel metastasized these, and they will continue long after Trump leaves office. The Roger Stone trial is in November, and multiple of the big names convicted so far (such as named above) will continue to cooperate on future prosecutions.
    In a sense you are correct. But this is a point with limited in value. Akin to saying about how well set up our defensive line up is for the next few plays when in the bigger picture it is 2nd and goal for the opposition.

    The legal battles are only one front, and we must look at the bigger picture to determine if the momentum will be on our side or not. A second Trump term leaves us with a heavily compromised judiciary in 2024, backed by a chamber rigged for conservative states. It really doesn't matter if Trump gets 25 to life in the state of New York after leaving office, the corruption will be too far to extract out except with a tremendous degree of political engagement.

    I see Brazil's judiciary sentencing big players on both sides on the aisle for a decade now, attempting to clean house. They're 3 for 4 on former Presidents in jail now? It doesn't seem to make a dent on the culture nor the behavior at this point because everyone is simply in on it now.
    In all these papers we see a love of honest work, an aversion to shams, a caution in the enunciation of conclusions, a distrust of rash generalizations and speculations based on uncertain premises. He was never anxious to add one more guess on doubtful matters in the hope of hitting the truth, or what might pass as such for a time, but was always ready to take infinite pains in the most careful testing of every theory. With these qualities was united a modesty which forbade the pushing of his own claims and desired no reputation except the unsought tribute of competent judges.

  8. #2378
    Ja mata, TosaInu Forum Administrator edyzmedieval's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump Thread

    DC & pretty much all American politics are buzzing right now, and the networks are making super prime time money.
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  9. #2379
    Ja mata, TosaInu Forum Administrator edyzmedieval's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Long awaited, the Mueller Report has been given to the DOJ.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/24/u...t-summary.html
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  10. #2380
    Formerly Wigferth Ironwall Senior Member Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump Thread

    And it looks like there's nothing fun in it.

    Are we calling him Teflon Trump, yet?
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  11. #2381

    Default Re: Trump Thread

    I'm not a Trump supporter, but I made this prediction last year. It's this feeling I get after witnessing investigations on different presidents in different countries. From what I've seen, when a president got impeached or arrested, the opposition and the investigators were more quicker and stronger in their actions. The feeling on the recent one felt very different.
    Last edited by Shaka_Khan; Yesterday at 03:14.
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  12. #2382

    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Here is the summary of the report as offered by Attorney General Barr (and co-signed by Deputy AG Rosenstein). There are two (or moredepending on how you count) major points:

    The report further explains that a primary consideration for the Special Counsel's investigation was whether any Americans – including individuals associated with the Trump campaign – joined the Russian conspiracies to influence the election, which would be a federal crime. The Special Counsel's investigation did not find that the Trump campaign or anyone associated with it conspired or coordinated with Russia in its efforts to influence the 2016 U.S. presidential election. As the report states: “[T]he investigation did not establish that members of the Trump Campaign conspired or coordinated with the Russian government in its election interference activities.
    The report's second part addresses a number of actions by the President – most of which have been the subject of public reporting – that the Special Counsel investigated as potentially raising obstruction-of-justice concerns. After making a “thorough factual investigation” into these matters, the Special Counsel considered whether to evaluate the conduct under Department standards governing prosecution and declination decisions but ultimately determined not to make a traditional prosecutorial judgment. The Special Counsel therefore did not draw a conclusion - one way or the other – as to whether the examined conduct constituted obstruction. Instead, for each of the relevant actions investigated, the report sets out evidence on both sides of the question and leaves unresolved what the Special Counsel views as “difficult issues” of law and fact concerning whether the President's actions and intent could be viewed as obstruction. The Special Counsel states that “while this report does not conclude that the President committed a crime, it also does not exonerate him.”
    [...] consulting with Department officials, including the Office of Legal Counsel; and applying the principles of federal prosecution that guide our charging decisions, Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein and I have concluded that the evidence developed during the Special Counsel's investigation is not sufficient to establish that the President committed an obstruction-of-justice offense. Our determination was made without regard to, and is not based on, the constitutional considerations that surround the indictment and criminal prosecution of a sitting president.

    In other words: Mueller did not find sufficient/threshold evidence that Trump and team coordinated with the Russian government (IRA or GRU) on either the hacking activities or the social media activities. Mueller did not make a decision on obstruction beyond weighing the arguments, but Barr/Rosenstein doesn't think Trump obstructed justice on the basis of the narrow findings they refer to (an obviously tendentious interposition between the investigation and Congress). Finally, Trump is not exonerated in any particular avenue of investigation.

    (Barr/Rosenstein reasoning on not charging obstruction is wrong, but it's in Congress' hands now)

    Infuriatingly narrow. All this tells us is that there is either no evidence or insufficient evidence that Trump and team went to Putin or Russian military intelligence and asked them to do hacking and the other things. But aiding and abetting computer crimes is not the crux of the issue, establishing a quid pro quo of selling policy for a foreign state's favor and financial inducements (i.e. bribery) is. We already know for a fact, all through merely public revelations, that numerous Trump campaign officials at all levels were coordinating with agents of the Russian (add the Saudis and Emiratis to the list) government throughout 2016, blandishing official policy (like sanctions relief) while attempting to engage with said governments' material support, and thereafter spent 2017 on lying about it after Trump's agenda was stalled in the first month. We just don't know for sure if it is because Trump himself sought and authorized some sort of corrupt bargain for personal gain. Either Mueller did not bother to investigate whether Trump made a corrupt bargain with Russia and other countries as being outside the scope of the investigation, or Barr failed to mention it in his summary - or Mueller just found there isn't enough evidence that it rises to the level of criminality (c.f. Rosenstein holding that it is inappropriate to reveal potentially derogatory information about individuals in the report who were not charged).

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus View Post
    And it looks like there's nothing fun in it.

    Are we calling him Teflon Trump, yet?
    They were calling him Teflon Don since before the Republican nomination. My conclusion, assuming the report has not been badly misrepresented by Barr and Rosenstein, is that Mueller sadly took his remit very narrowly (contra those who thought he was on a "fishing expedition" or else going to "jail the Soviet cheeto"), and as a strict institutionalist did not have the audacity to pursue a maximal inquisition into the President himself. He was always on a fact-finding mission only and never intended to charge the President with anything regardless of the facts. Depending on the actual contents of the report - which we should hope are revealed to Congress/the public as far as is possible; they will also contribute to our understanding of the foreign actors' activities - at best the report was intended only as a reference guide for Congress, towards impeachment inquiry at their discretion, etc. That is, institutionally punting the ball.

    Let's hope for the fact-finding in the report to get out, although it may take some time as Barr/Mueller indicate that certain grand jury deliberations, secret information and information pertaining to ongoing cases will be redacted. Much of it, especially the intelligence (i.e. espionage) facets we will probably never see.
    Last edited by Montmorency; Yesterday at 04:16.
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  13. #2383
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    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Well, my pessimism proved correct.
    In all these papers we see a love of honest work, an aversion to shams, a caution in the enunciation of conclusions, a distrust of rash generalizations and speculations based on uncertain premises. He was never anxious to add one more guess on doubtful matters in the hope of hitting the truth, or what might pass as such for a time, but was always ready to take infinite pains in the most careful testing of every theory. With these qualities was united a modesty which forbade the pushing of his own claims and desired no reputation except the unsought tribute of competent judges.

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  14. #2384

    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name View Post
    Well, my pessimism proved correct.
    I'm optimistic that Trump will eventually be condemned by history as everything we know he is (and definitely not rehabilitated as a brilliant and passionate conservative).

    I'm optimistic that he at least finally goes away for tax crimes and bank fraud. Eventually.
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  15. #2385
    Apr 04-Nov 11 Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    I'm optimistic that Trump will eventually be condemned by history as everything we know he is (and definitely not rehabilitated as a brilliant and passionate conservative).

    I'm optimistic that he at least finally goes away for tax crimes and bank fraud. Eventually.
    The money crimes are seemingly a slam dunk. New York city real estate is crime! ba dum tish.

    The report is underwhelming but this in no way changes all the horrid stuff this administration has done so, we kind of where we were yesterday.
    There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford

    My aim, then, was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.

    I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation.

  16. #2386
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, Cub Shoot 2 Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Treasure Diver Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Slack Man Champion, Japanese Baseball Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Super Mario Mushroom Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Fish Kill Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, KF 9000 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    I'm optimistic that Trump will eventually be condemned by history as everything we know he is (and definitely not rehabilitated as a brilliant and passionate conservative). ...
    To be rehabilitated as a passionate conservative it helps if you were actually a conservative, as opposed to a narcissistic opportunist ripping off the sincere efforts of Buchanan, dumping them into the intellectual echo-chamber fabricated by Limbaugh and Hannity and spicing that stew with rhetoric designed to send the White Supremacist loons into an onanistic frenzy.
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

    "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." -- H. L. Mencken

  17. #2387
    Ni dieu ni maître! Senior Member a completely inoffensive name's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    I'm optimistic that Trump will eventually be condemned by history as everything we know he is (and definitely not rehabilitated as a brilliant and passionate conservative).

    I'm optimistic that he at least finally goes away for tax crimes and bank fraud. Eventually.
    Yes, but he is still just a symptom. The next one won't be as dumb as him.
    Tell me how you feel on the odds of the US politics remaining:
    * Democratic
    * Inclusive
    * Liberal
    In all these papers we see a love of honest work, an aversion to shams, a caution in the enunciation of conclusions, a distrust of rash generalizations and speculations based on uncertain premises. He was never anxious to add one more guess on doubtful matters in the hope of hitting the truth, or what might pass as such for a time, but was always ready to take infinite pains in the most careful testing of every theory. With these qualities was united a modesty which forbade the pushing of his own claims and desired no reputation except the unsought tribute of competent judges.

  18. #2388

    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name View Post
    Yes, but he is still just a symptom. The next one won't be as dumb as him.
    Tell me how you feel on the odds of the US politics remaining:
    * Democratic
    * Inclusive
    * Liberal
    Let's just add that insofar as our justice system might permit a man like Trump to die without having first spent time in prison is a failed system. Symptom indeed.

    Well, in the long-term: "Socialism or barbarism." As always not because I'm sanguine on the chances for socialism, but because those are literally the only possibilities.
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  19. #2389
    Formerly Wigferth Ironwall Senior Member Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name View Post
    Yes, but he is still just a symptom. The next one won't be as dumb as him.
    Tell me how you feel on the odds of the US politics remaining:
    * Democratic
    * Inclusive
    * Liberal
    I think the US has only been these things a few times: During Reconstruction Post-Civil War and when the Democrats generally controlled the Government pre-Reagan.

    Since Reagan the Congress has been increasingly Partisan whilst the Presidency has been increasingly captured via a cult of personality. Clinton and Obama both appealed to essentially the same hopeful and yourhful demographic using "Star Power" whilst Bush Jnr and Trump both appealed to an electorate frustrated by inequality and frightened of outside influence.
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."


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