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Thread: Trump Thread

  1. #1801
    Coffee farmer extraordinaire Member spmetla's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Bush's foreign policy mistakes can really just be summed up by Iraq. All the other things he did were peanuts. The Afghan war was going to happen since after 9/11 a few cruise missiles at training camps wasn't going to suffice for the domestic need for revenge. The failure there can largely be pointed at Iraq taking troops, money, and attention away.

    There were absolutely tremendous mistakes though. After 9/11 he turned down Iran's "Grand Bargain" and instead created the "Axis of Evil" http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a587314.pdf
    He let China get away essentially unpunished after the Hainan Island incident
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hainan_Island_incident
    He tried to expand US influence into Russia's sphere too quickly but understandably caved when Georgia poked the bear for no reason.

    His policies toward Israel during the Second Intifada and the Lebanon/Hezbollah War were to essentially ignore/support them.

    For comparing the two presidencies I like to point out that we are only 1.5 years into Trumps term. At this comparable point in the Bush presidency we were fighting in only Afghanistan (Operation Anaconda had just started in March), we had the the general good will of the world, Pakistan and Iran were cooed being worried that the US might hit them in it's strife to hit back. The big scandal was the establishing of Camp X-Ray (Guantanamo) and the ongoing debate of how to treat terrorists (POWs versus criminals) as well as the American Taliban John Walker issue.
    Bush in that time period hadn't damaged the reputation of NATO but instead had strengthened it by invoking Article 5 and getting our Allies involved in Afghanistan as well.
    He hadn't tried to rip up NAFTA or renegotiate our trade deals unilaterally with our strongest allies.

    Though I didn't like Obama because I thought him to far on the pacifist side of the pendulum the TPP was a good deal, the Iran deal was in our favor, NATO works well and we need to support them especially in regards to opposing Russian aggression.

    Bush '43 was a disaster for the US foreign policy but he had a full eight years of mucking it up and it being largely centered on Iraq starting our forever war in Mesopotamia and then his de-regulation of banking/lending that led to the 2008 economic collapse.

    Trump has managed to hugely damage American prestige, trustworthiness, and morals (the preference for strongmen over our allies, the 'shithole country' thing) and has done all this damage without even starting a war, yet...
    I greatly fear what he will do over the remainder of his term or (help us all) a second term. I am still not optimistic about what meaningful things can come from his negotiations with Korea, I think he'll negotiate us out of the peninsula seeing as he doesn't want us defending Korea or Japan anyhow. Pulling out of the Iran deal with no violation of it by the Iranians was just stupid, it wasn't the best deal possible but it at least froze Iranian nuclear development. If we at least had our allies on board it would have been something else but the great deal maker didn't even try to make a deal with our friends to back him and instead just slapped them in the face. I think the only foreign policy thing of his I can actually agree on without caveat is the strikes on Syria after the chemical weapons use though that's if I ignore his surrounding policy toward the Syrian war.
    Bush was bad but Trump has in a very short time show his potential to be a whole lot worse. Only time will tell but I've seen nothing to counter my pessimism towards Trumps "America First" policies.
    Last edited by spmetla; 05-13-2018 at 20:24.

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  2. #1802
    Horse Archer Senior Member Sarmatian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump Thread

    While it is probably true, in the sense that sheer number of stupid things Trump did or said outweigh what Bush did, all Trumps's mistakes (bar pulling out of Iran deal) are small scale, and they're generally tied to Trump as a person, and will be forgotten or amended as he leaves office.

    Iraq was a huge mistake that the entire world is still feeling the consequences of, and will continue for some time.

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  3. #1803

    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Trump has managed to alienate America's European allies.
    Now they find themselves lining up with Russia and China.
    Long term, the EU sees that Trump will pass but I honestly doubt that the relationship will be unchanged.
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  4. #1804
    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Although the way Donnie has been with the USA's allies in getting them to up their military spending, I do think he does have a point that others have not really been pulling their weight. Of course the USA gains from this but so do all the other countries.

    The only downside with this is that if there was this transfer of resources to the USA it would enable them to have a lot more overseas... deployments.

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
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  5. #1805
    Coffee farmer extraordinaire Member spmetla's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump Thread

    I'll concede he's managed to get them to up their spending a bit but not significantly. There is no real transfer of 'military resources' to the US because NATO still requires the US to fly it's flag to maintain its credibility. The Baltic Air space patrolling, the NATO rotational training in Romania, Ukraine, and the Baltics all require the US to maintain some contingents as well so that we have 'skin in the game' which only makes sense.
    If our allies were standing up more logistical capabilities such as air refuelers, heavy lift cargo planes, naval support ships etc... that allowed the non-US NATO contingents to conduct even peace keeping operations without heavy US support behind the scenes. The UK has a carrier without planes because it retired the Harriers way too soon in anticipation of the boondoggle F-35 and not enough ships to serve as escorts for it and it's sister ship when that's complete. Germany has lots of equipment but can't seem to maintain them and keep them operational despite the extra budget.
    Not to mention that the US military stills has a massive budget but still can't figure out how to use it without excessive waste and overspending ( a byproduct of the Bush years endless military budget undoing the fiscial responsibility of the 90s).

    they're generally tied to Trump as a person, and will be forgotten or amended as he leaves office.
    I wish that were true but he's not just saying things he's doing things too. Pulling out of the TPP was a big deal, he might have done it just to be anti-Obama but it has hugely damaged the US position in East Asia/Pacific. The Iran deal has similar effects.
    Look at his tariff threats, all mostly seem to be affecting our friends instead of our competitors.

    If all he did was say embarrassing things and be a figure head president that'd be one thing but he is accomplishing a lot of the terrible ideas he campaigned on. For one, any agreement a US President enters into without getting through congress will hold very little water from now on meaning that in international diplomacy a US President who's party doesn't control congress in order to push through 'deals' will not be trusted for fear that a few years latter everything can be undone.

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    Four stage strategy from Yes, Minister:
    Stage one we say nothing is going to happen.
    Stage two, we say something may be about to happen, but we should do nothing about it.
    Stage three, we say that maybe we should do something about it, but there's nothing we can do.
    Stage four, we say maybe there was something we could have done, but it's too late now.

  6. #1806
    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump Thread

    I think Trump is a fan of President Harding and that "Make America Great Again" is a rehash of the "Return to normalcy".
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  7. #1807

    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Trump makes good on another campaign promise.
    The US embassy moves to Jerusalem:

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-44116340

    Clarity is nice. We can finally put to bed any idea that the US is (or perhaps ever was) an honest broker in the Palestinian/Israeli conflict.
    Removing that "lie we chose to live by" gives us a new lie. The Palestinians never were, therefore never will be.
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  8. #1808
    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump Thread

    The peace prize might not be as close as some said: North Korea wants to keep nukes. But then given Jerry Adams and Barack Obama both were given it it seems the bar is rather low.

    I have to say I was amazed when it was initially said they've give them up but in the absence of an initial denial I thought perhaps things have really changed that much. Now things are heading back to a more expected position where dismantling a test site that is not needed and has all but collapsed under the last blasts is one thing but accepting a pinkie promise from the USA that they'll totally not be invaded seemed pretty ridiculous. Perhaps Donald's lot might even think that a short sharp strike to take (say) a further 50 mile strip to put Seoul out of artillery range would really help strengthen future negotiations. What could possibly go wrong?

    Currently the thing keeping the peace the best is that the military is stretched with wrapping up the other wars that the USA has started with gusto and should have all been over by Christmas.

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
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  9. #1809
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Trump's strongman posturing and "peace through strength" really paying off now:

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-a8353261.html

    North Korea has announced it is suspending scheduled talks with the South due to US-South Korean military drills, which it called a “provocation”.

    North Korea’s state-run Central News Agency (KCNA) said the so-called Max Thunder drills between the South Korean and US Air Force were simply a “rehearsal for [an] invasion of the North and a provocation amid warming inter-Korean ties”.

    “This exercise targeting us, which is being carried out across South Korea, is a flagrant challenge to the Panmunjom Declaration and an intentional military provocation running counter to the positive political development on the Korean Peninsula,” KCNA said.
    Nobel coming any day now.


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  10. #1810

    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Vitiate Man.

    History repeats the old conceits
    The glib replies, the same defeats


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  11. #1811
    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    Trump's strongman posturing and "peace through strength" really paying off now:

    Nobel coming any day now.
    They are also annoyed that Trump is taking credit for bringing Kim to the table. They are also annoyed at how they have made concessions and the USA has not made any in return...
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  12. #1812
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Beskar View Post
    They are also annoyed that Trump is taking credit for bringing Kim to the table. They are also annoyed at how they have made concessions and the USA has not made any in return...
    Some say the North Koreans are just trying the same strongman tactic Trump does. Walk away until the other side caves in.

    On the other hand, if that is true, given the time it took to get to the table in the first place, I wonder whether the two sides attempting that tactic is going to work out....or just bring about the war-hungry hardliners....


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  13. #1813
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    Trump's strongman posturing and "peace through strength" really paying off now:

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-a8353261.html



    Nobel coming any day now.
    Not even if Trump brings peace in the universe and surroundings, they would give it to Kim
    Last edited by Fragony; 05-17-2018 at 07:56.

  14. #1814
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    Not even if Trump brings peace in the universe and surroundings, they would give it to Kim
    And we know it's true because it feels true.


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  15. #1815
    Coffee farmer extraordinaire Member spmetla's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    Not even if Trump brings peace in the universe and surroundings, they would give it to Kim
    I imagine they'd give it [Nobel Prize] to President Moon Jae-in if anyone. He's the only one of the three parties not threatening to start a nuclear war if he doesn't get his way. Threatening "Fire and Fury" doesn't merit in my mind a Nobel even if those lines have been obscured by all sorts of nefarious leaders getting them.

    As much as I hate Trump, if peace were somehow made and that tinderbox finally settled he would be more deserving a Nobel Prize than Obama was.

    In other news I do find it interesting the muted reaction on Fox or Breitbart on Trump's efforts to save ZTE's chinese jobs shortly after the PRC gave the Trump Org a half billion dollars for an Indonesian project.
    https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/entry/...b0200bcab7fa66
    Trump Orders Help For Chinese Phone-Maker After China Approves Money For Trump Project
    Trump will profit from Indonesian resort project that will get $500 million in Chinese loans in a deal sealed days before before his tweet ordering help for ZTE.


    How Trump’s ZTE deal could undercut his foreign policy
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.a3ff2fdd7e9d
    The United States fined ZTE $1.19 billion last year as part of a settlement after the company illegally shipped telecom gear to Iran and North Korea. Just last month, the Commerce Department banned U.S. firms from selling components to ZTE for seven years because it allegedly broke that deal. Cut off from U.S. suppliers, the Chinese firm was on the verge of collapse. Now Trump has come to the rescue, apparently worried about the ban's impact on Chinese workers.

    It's not clear what prompted Trump's decision. The Washington Post's Damian Paletta, David J. Lynch and Josh Dawsey reported this week that the president appeared to have bypassed many U.S. trade officials. Advisers who favor a hard line on Chinese trade practices appear to have been sidelined, according to reports from Axios. Some observers have also noted that the decision came after reports that Chinese government-linked enterprises will provide $500 million to a project in Indonesia that features Trump-branded developments — that is, a project that will earn the president money.

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    Stage three, we say that maybe we should do something about it, but there's nothing we can do.
    Stage four, we say maybe there was something we could have done, but it's too late now.

  16. #1816
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    And we know it's true because it feels true.
    The Nobel-price commitee consists of pipesmoking beardrubbing people who should be gently escorded to their library, comfort-zone thingie

  17. #1817

    Default Re: Trump Thread



    "Thanks for the last and greatest betrayal of the last and greatest of human dreams"
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  18. #1818
    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump Thread

    The guy doesn't know his wife's name:
    https://edition.cnn.com/2018/05/19/p...ure/index.html
    Quote Originally Posted by Suraknar View Post
    The article exists for a reason yes, I did not write it...

  19. #1819
    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump Thread

    To be fair, he's old. He's on his third women on retainer and he's working his way through a fair number of other ones on a pay-for-play basis. It's complicated.

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
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  20. #1820

    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Note: I finally remembered to do this: moving the embassy within this fiscal year averts the impending limitation on State Dept. embassy funding. Following the admin's refusal late last year to continue the waiver against moving the embassy, that was a worry of mine, that it could be drug out so long as to defund our diplomatic outposts. So nix that concern.

    Also, CHECK OUT this excerpt from Dostoyevsky, Tales from the Underground; it speaks so well, in a way, to our contemporary circumstance:

    Then--this is all what you say--new economic relations will be established, all ready-made and worked out with mathematical exactitude, so that every possible question will vanish in the twinkling of an eye, simply because every possible answer to it will be provided. Then the "Palace of Crystal" will be built. Then ... In fact, those will be halcyon days. Of course there is no guaranteeing (this is my comment) that it will not be, for instance, frightfully dull then (for what will one have to do when everything will be calculated and tabulated), but on the other hand everything will be extraordinarily rational. Of course boredom may lead you to anything. It is boredom sets one sticking golden pins into people, but all that would not matter. What is bad (this is my comment again) is that I dare say people will be thankful for the gold pins then. Man is stupid, you know, phenomenally stupid; or rather he is not at all stupid, but he is so ungrateful that you could not find another like him in all creation. I, for instance, would not be in the least surprised if all of a sudden, A PROPOS of nothing, in the midst of general prosperity a gentleman with an ignoble, or rather with a reactionary and ironical, countenance were to arise and, putting his arms akimbo, say to us all: "I say, gentleman, hadn't we better kick over the whole show and scatter rationalism to the winds, simply to send these logarithms to the devil, and to enable us to live once more at our own sweet foolish will!" That again would not matter, but what is annoying is that he would be sure to find followers--such is the nature of man. And all that for the most foolish reason, which, one would think, was hardly worth mentioning: that is, that man everywhere and at all times, whoever he may be, has preferred to act as he chose and not in the least as his reason and advantage dictated. And one may choose what is contrary to one's own interests, and sometimes one POSITIVELY OUGHT (that is my idea). One's own free unfettered choice, one's own caprice, however wild it may be, one's own fancy worked up at times to frenzy--is that very "most advantageous advantage" which we have overlooked, which comes under no classification and against which all systems and theories are continually being shattered to atoms. And how do these wiseacres know that man wants a normal, a virtuous choice? What has made them conceive that man must want a rationally advantageous choice? What man wants is simply INDEPENDENT choice, whatever that independence may cost and wherever it may lead. And choice, of course, the devil only knows what choice.
    Wow.
    Last edited by Montmorency; 05-21-2018 at 13:50.
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  21. #1821

    Default Re: Trump Thread

    You should really read that Dostoevsky excerpt.

    Speaking of Belle Epoque Europe, here I just discovered the petition that Trump's grandfather wrote to the Prince-Regent of Bavaria.

    TLDR: 'I'm a good German fellow, and now that I made my fortune in America I want to be a German citizen again. PLEASE DON'T DEPORT ME!'

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    From a letter written in 1905 by Friedrich Trump, Donald Trump’s grandfather, to Luitpold, prince regent of Bavaria. Trump had been ordered to leave Bavaria for failing to complete mandatory military service and to register his initial emigration to the United States twenty years earlier. Prince Luitpold rejected Trump’s request for repatriation; the family later settled in New York. Translated from the German by Austen Hinkley.

    Most Serene, Most Powerful Prince Regent! Most Gracious Regent and Lord!

    I was born in Kallstadt on March 14, 1869. My parents were honest, plain, pious vineyard workers. They strictly held me to everything good — to diligence and piety, to regular attendance in school and church, to absolute obedience toward the high authority.

    After my confirmation, in 1882, I apprenticed to become a barber. I emigrated in 1885, in my sixteenth year. In America I carried on my business with diligence, discretion, and prudence. God’s blessing was with me, and I became rich. I obtained American citizenship in 1892. In 1902 I met my current wife. Sadly, she could not tolerate the climate in New York, and I went with my dear family back to Kallstadt.

    The town was glad to have received a capable and productive citizen. My old mother was happy to see her son, her dear daughter-in-law, and her granddaughter around her; she knows now that I will take care of her in her old age.

    But we were confronted all at once, as if by a lightning strike from fair skies, with the news that the High Royal State Ministry had decided that we must leave our residence in the Kingdom of Bavaria. We were paralyzed with fright; our happy family life was tarnished. My wife has been overcome by anxiety, and my lovely child has become sick.

    Why should we be deported? This is very, very hard for a family. What will our fellow citizens think if honest subjects are faced with such a decree — not to mention the great material losses it would incur. I would like to become a Bavarian citizen again.

    In this urgent situation I have no other recourse than to turn to our adored, noble, wise, and just sovereign lord, our exalted ruler His Royal Highness, highest of all, who has already dried so many tears, who has ruled so beneficially and justly and wisely and softly and is warmly and deeply loved, with the most humble request that the highest of all will himself in mercy deign to allow the applicant to stay in the most gracious Kingdom of Bavaria.

    Your most humble and obedient,

    Friedrich Trump


    Joke: Trump's grandfather dodged German conscription in favor of personal enrichment. Trump dodged the Vietnam draft...


    Speaking of personal enrichment, here's an article pointing out how every Trump scandal can be reduced to the criminal corruption of himself and his circle, or the deflection of the reckoning for that corruption.
    Last edited by Montmorency; 05-23-2018 at 02:25.
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  22. #1822

    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    You should really read that Dostoevsky excerpt.

    Speaking of personal enrichment, here's an article pointing out how every Trump scandal can be reduced to the criminal corruption of himself and his circle, or the deflection of the reckoning for that corruption.
    The Atlantic article is a nice summation what the Trump administration is all about
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  23. #1823
    Stranger in a strange land Moderator Hooahguy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump Thread

    So, to almost nobody's surprise, the big summit between Trump and Kim Jong-Un is off. The letter Trump wrote though is pretty funny. To quote this article, "the letter’s tone is more wistful than hostile, reading almost like a breakup note."

    I think it was obvious that this was where it was headed once Bolton talked about Libya. I also think its clear that this is what Bolton wanted from the get-go.
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  24. #1824
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Hooahguy View Post
    So, to almost nobody's surprise, the big summit between Trump and Kim Jong-Un is off. The letter Trump wrote though is pretty funny. To quote this article, "the letter’s tone is more wistful than hostile, reading almost like a breakup note."

    I think it was obvious that this was where it was headed once Bolton talked about Libya. I also think its clear that this is what Bolton wanted from the get-go.
    Likely he did want this result, at least in the short term. As it was, NK's leader was "winning" simply by meeting as a equal. Any actual agreement would have been a bonus, but not necessary.
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  25. #1825
    Stranger in a strange land Moderator Hooahguy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump Thread

    I think Trump really wanted the meeting, because it would boost his image a lot, which he and the GOP needs desperately before November. What I think may happen is that they get together again to speak right before the election as a boost. Or at least talk about getting back together.
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  26. #1826
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Hooahguy View Post
    I think Trump really wanted the meeting, because it would boost his image a lot, which he and the GOP needs desperately before November. What I think may happen is that they get together again to speak right before the election as a boost. Or at least talk about getting back together.
    Agreed. My post was agreeing that Bolton did not.
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  27. #1827
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    Default Re: Trump Thread

    To point out the obvious, North Korea wants to spin this out as long as humanly possible since it reduces the odds of sanctions / attacks on them. And perhaps by now they've managed to explain to Trump that this is the best he can get - statesmanlike overseas visits before important elections or whenever else he wants to buff his ego. The diplo-nerds can do the writing in the background and they have to smile, he has to ramble for a bit and then everyone agrees how much progress was made and job done.

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  28. #1828
    Stranger in a strange land Moderator Hooahguy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    Agreed. My post was agreeing that Bolton did not.
    This is why I think Bolton being appointed was one of the biggest threats to peace. But we will see how things play out.
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  29. #1829

    Default Re: Trump Thread

    One fair point someone made about Bolton is, he can't actually want war with both Iran and North Korea simultaneously (unless he's literarily-mad). So his pronouncements shouldn't be interpreted directly but as part of a rhetorical dance between conferees; they open up on all the influential positions and attitudes within their respective administrations to shape their counterparts' imagination of possibilities...

    This isn't unfamiliar to us, but it's easy to lose sight of.

    So we probably don't know what Bolton's real strategy is besides that it's dangerous.



    EDIT:

    The Day England's Footballers Gave the Nazi Salute
    Four months before Chamberlain's now infamous declaration of peace, on 14 May 1938, the English national football team played Germany in front of 110,00 spectators at the Olympiastadion in Berlin. It was the opening game of their tour of Europe and began with a powerful political statement.

    Top-ranking Nazis such as Hermann Goering, Rudolf Hess and Joseph Goebbels were in attendance for the match, though Hitler himself was not present. When the German national anthem was played before the game, England's players raised their arms to give the Nazi "Heil Hitler" salute. Seven decades on – and with full knowledge of what was to unfold under the Nazi regime – it is a fairly shocking visual.
    Then as now, sport and politics were inextricably linked. The English players had been instructed before the match that they should give the salute, with the order coming direct from the Foreign Office. It was later reported that the team initially refused, only for the British Ambassador to Germany, Sir Neville Henderson, to intervene. Using FA Secretary Stanley Rous (later FIFA President) as an intermediary, Henderson told the team to give the salute for the sake of Anglo-German relations.

    Stanley Matthews – who was among the goal-scorers in a 6-3 England win – recalled: "All the England players were livid and totally opposed to this, myself included.
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    Last edited by Montmorency; 05-26-2018 at 12:53.
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  30. #1830
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    One fair point someone made about Bolton is, he can't actually want war with both Iran and North Korea simultaneously (unless he's literarily-mad).
    How does one become literarily mad? Does it involve seeking innovations in concrete poetry that transcend the requirements of communication?

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