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  1. #1
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you want Germany to raise military expenses?

    Retaining high quality specialists is important. Long service enlisted have traditionally been the backbone of successful militaries. And some skill sets are valuable on "civvy street" and it requires effort/compensation to keep persons with those skills in the military.

    Fixed AA
    AA defenses are a vital component, as long as they represent a significant threat if unsuppressed. A tech-savvy opponent can and will suppress most such as part of an effort to strike successfully from the air. Yet every multiple-millions-in-cost fighter/bomber that has to be tasked to suppress or destroy a targeting radar or missile site (and you can generally get a SAM battery with targeting radar for less than the cost of the fighter) is one fewer aircraft that can actually be used against the desired target. Even the use of stealth to spoof such systems and go for the target anyway still represents a significant expenditure to overcome the static defense (though admittedly with stealth tech, the cost may have been largely paid in advance).

    Following the old Sov' mantra that the best defense against a tank was another (preferably more effective) tank, the best choice for air defense are active air forces that can interdict and destroy the opposition. This is NOT cheaply done however, so the fixed assets more than pay for themselves in altering the calculus of an airstrike.

    Special Forces

    This has become the "catch-all" term for two very different military functions: commando-style units (SAS, SEALS) and units serving as trainers/cadre for foreign troops (green beret).

    The former are highly trained and very expensive light infantry. They add a value by using a quasi-guerilla approach in all conflicts. High value raids, covert recon, and other short-term high intensity missions are their specialty.
    The latter are also highly trained, but a key element of their function is to serve as training/command cadre for a force of "locals" and as such they handle training, medical care, 'heart-and-minds' efforts and the like in order to ramp up the capability of the indigenous force so favored.

    If these forces -- which almost always 'cream off' the highest caliber of service person -- grow too large then they hurt the larger military from which they are drawn by removing too many of the 'best and brightest' from leadership roles in normal units, watering down the effectiveness of the larger force.

    Recruited sparingly they can, of course, generate a lot of value for the cost expended.

    It should be noted that these same functions -- raiding and cadre -- have been handed to "line" units and these line units have often performed them quite effectively (US Marine Constabulary in Haiti).


    Intelligence

    SIGINT is hugely useful, but only if you can tap into the signal. Not all signals are broadcast.
    HUMINT is much more expensive, and less likely to generate useful intelligence for the expenses borne. It can, at its best, get access to key information that is not broadcast.


    Overall size of regular forces

    Both size and quality are components of the deterrence value of a military. No matter how skilled, a superbly trained and equipped company of commandos cannot be in two or three places at once. If regular forces are too few or their capabilities too anemic, then an opponent can attack, knowing it will lose any engagement where confronted by the hyper-elite opposition, but knowing it can win the war despite losing all of those little battles since the overall coverage is too thin.
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  2. #2
    Coffee farmer extraordinaire Member spmetla's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you want Germany to raise military expenses?

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    Overall size of regular forces

    Both size and quality are components of the deterrence value of a military. No matter how skilled, a superbly trained and equipped company of commandos cannot be in two or three places at once. If regular forces are too few or their capabilities too anemic, then an opponent can attack, knowing it will lose any engagement where confronted by the hyper-elite opposition, but knowing it can win the war despite losing all of those little battles since the overall coverage is too thin.
    That's why it would be nice if Germany did actually maintain conventional forces of an amount relative to its size economically and politically. I know all too well that people love to think that special forces and airpower are the future solution, we've been tricking ourselves into that cycle of thinking over and over again since the end of the second war.
    To win wars one needs large conventional forces as well as the supporting specialists. As for elite forces they are by and large are there to support conventional forces though they are able to achieve limited goals independently.

    Given Germany's understandable guilt over its past and strong trend of pacifism is why I'd push for naval and air lift capabilities. They have the money and industrial base that could support those capabilities which no one in NATO other than the US has in large measure. Even the much hailed independent operations of France in Mali and to some degree Libya required a large amount of US airlift capability and aerial refueling.
    If Germany had more capabilities they could contribute hugely to the huge number of EU, UN, and NATO missions that are supported by NATO members without the guilt of sending too many shooters than their mental block can deal with at the moment.

    It'd be better for NATO if Germany instead raised several more armored and mechanized divisions which are something the Russians understand, respect and fear but knowing that that will not happen more achievable goals should be sought.

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    Shadow Senior Member Kagemusha's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you want Germany to raise military expenses?

    Considering more airlift capacity have been suggested. Luftwaffe have ordered 53 Airbus A400M military transports. Once they are delivered the Luftwaffe will have comparable airlift capacity compared to RAF with their 50 military transports.

    It would seem the Special forces component of Bundeswehr is quite adequate. If one looks at the force projection capabilities and Germany accepts to spend more. Maybe they could have a Amphibious assault ship akin to French Mistral Class or US America class, with accompanying air component. They already have a Marine component in their Navy, so with such ship they could project force faster over water, while i dont see any sense for Germany to build a blue water Carrier, while such could fit easily the proposed 0,8% increase in their defense budget.

    Personally though im still of opinion that the problem in Europe/NATO is not the amount of spending, but the efficiency.
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    Voluntary Suspension Voluntary Suspension Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you want Germany to raise military expenses?

    Airlift capacity assumes an offensive role though, so are amphibious landing ships.

    More APC's and more tanks forward-based in the Baltic are defensive, not offensive.

    This is not really about a German "mental block" it's about Germany not wanting to spend money when they can farm their defence out to the poorer Baltic States, the US and the UK. Them not having a large military allows them to flex their economic muscle and have better living standards/more competitive businesses than otherwise.

    If Germany spent a sensible amount of defence (2% being a MINIMUM) then they would either have to raise business rates or cut welfare, two things they don't want to do.
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  5. #5
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you want Germany to raise military expenses?

    Airlift and Sealift need not be strictly offensive -- though they clearly enable longer ranged deployments. When I mentioned sealift and airlift I was not specifically referencing amphib assault carriers and the like, simply that civilian ROROs and so forth are limited in their ability to transport military units in the fashion needed by such units.
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    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you want Germany to raise military expenses?

    We should really get helicarriers. Or if that fails, blimp bombers.

    What I find interesting about the manpower debate is that robots/drones are the future anyway, so why waste money on wages now that could be spent on developing terminators and robocops to conquer and appease the planet in the future? We only seem to use our engineers and programmers rather conservatively so far, you rearely see the latest in military technology coming from Germany, because that's just not how we use our assets apparently. What we should really do, is design drones and then have them contract-built in China so we can afford more.

    If Putin knew that Germany had a bazillion Terminators in well-protected bunkers that would go out and hunt slavic people if Merkel pressed a red button, he'd be very careful.
    Last edited by Husar; 04-13-2017 at 14:03.


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    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you want Germany to raise military expenses?

    Didn't know the mandate doesn't actually exist. But for small countries like Netherlands or our southern neighbours spending much on the military doesn't really makes much sense, what's there is good enough for the role we have, a specialised supportive one. We aren't going to win any war we don't stand a chance, but can assist allies when needed. I would feel better if the larger countries would have a larger army though
    Last edited by Fragony; 04-13-2017 at 15:06.

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