EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

Originally Posted by Greyblades

Very good, and when the representatives of the people wont pass or overturn the laws the voters want, despite promising to do so when running for election, the people replace them with someone else who will next election.

This process is exactly why the majority of represetatives in parliament want to put election off as long as possible, now that their majority relies on those who have openly refused to do what they promised.

I totally agree. Like I've said before, If a government implementing Leave will keep the promises made by Leave, I'd support Brexit myself. Do you think that a government implementing Brexit should keep the promises made by the Leave campaigns?

Originally Posted by Pannonian

I can add Corbyn to that list. But, unlike those who see themselves as centre right, there is no evidence of anything of that sort in the centre left. I value rule of law, lawmaking by Parliament, and the executive acting within bounds that I've been accustomed to all my life. Do you support lawmaking as Parliament's prerogative?

Who are these centre right who are supporting this?
And how is the current absence of centre left with this view evidence they could not occur?

Parliament makes laws - although I know there are "King Henry 8 powers" but I am unclear what they are.

Originally Posted by rory_20_uk

Who are these centre right who are supporting this?
And how is the current absence of centre left with this view evidence they could not occur?

Parliament makes laws - although I know there are "King Henry 8 powers" but I am unclear what they are.

If you support Parliament as the lawmaking body, shouldn't you be pushing the government to make a proposal that will pass Parliament and enact your satisfactory Brexit? I know that IA has declared that the next referendum should be held in 40 years time, so presumably he and others like him won't like votes before their time. So if you want Brexit to be enacted, the government will have to work with the present Parliament. The constitution clearly states that the next one is due in 2022, so it's not the indefinite future.

Originally Posted by Pannonian

If you support Parliament as the lawmaking body, shouldn't you be pushing the government to make a proposal that will pass Parliament and enact your satisfactory Brexit? I know that IA has declared that the next referendum should be held in 40 years time, so presumably he and others like him won't like votes before their time. So if you want Brexit to be enacted, the government will have to work with the present Parliament. The constitution clearly states that the next one is due in 2022, so it's not the indefinite future.

No you are confused. This logic is meaningless: Brexit is leaving. It requires no legislation as was set out by EU law. The statement has been given over 2 years ago.

Parliament makes laws.

Originally Posted by Pannonian

I totally agree. Like I've said before, If a government implementing Leave will keep the promises made by Leave, I'd support Brexit myself. Do you think that a government implementing Brexit should keep the promises made by the Leave campaigns?

Yes, pity that now finally we have a leave govenment after three years of a remain one; this parliament is doing everything to prevent it even trying.

Originally Posted by Greyblades

Yes, pity that now finally we have a leave govenment after three years of a remain one; this parliament is doing everything to prevent it even trying.

Johnson, a confirmed Leaver, is PM. Should we expect him to keep his promise that he famously campaigned in front of? All he has to do is present a satisfactory proposal in front of Parliament, and it will be passed. When is he going to put this proposal before them?

Originally Posted by rory_20_uk

No you are confused. This logic is meaningless: Brexit is leaving. It requires no legislation as was set out by EU law. The statement has been given over 2 years ago.

Parliament makes laws.

So what's all the bother about this Parliament obstructing Brexit? Why are you calling for a new Parliament, if this one does not affect matters?

Why would Corbyn be on the list that includes dictators? There's a huge difference between totalitarianism and social democracy / labour movement.

Originally Posted by Pannonian

So what's all the bother about this Parliament obstructing Brexit? Why are you calling for a new Parliament, if this one does not affect matters?

They are trying to pass laws to delay, and nothing to actually provide anything that could be called a solution. A massive game of hot potato / chicken where they are all positioning themselves to blame the others - those that aren't petrified that they might be deselected for doing what they want not for what their electorate want.

Originally Posted by edyzmedieval

Why would Corbyn be on the list that includes dictators? There's a huge difference between totalitarianism and social democracy / labour movement.

He's no social democrat. He's a full on Marxist.

If he gets into Number 10 as a caretaker government leader you'll need a crow bar to get him out.

Originally Posted by InsaneApache

Marxist

I think that is one of those words that greyblades says "has become meaningless by incessant misuse".

Originally Posted by CrossLOPER

I think that is one of those words that greyblades says "has become meaningless by incessant misuse".

Well the fact is he's an old style commie, and like all socialists regimes whether international of national it ends up the same, piles of bodies, prison camps and mass starvation. How anyone could even consider socialism is a good thing with regards it's history is astounding.

Originally Posted by Pannonian

Johnson, a confirmed Leaver, is PM. Should we expect him to keep his promise that he famously campaigned in front of? All he has to do is present a satisfactory proposal in front of Parliament, and it will be passed. When is he going to put this proposal before them?

Good question.

Main reason there isnt a deal right now I hear is that parliament's current composition joined with the "no no-deal" bill has kicked the stool out from under Boris' negociating position and the EU hasnt assented to anything better than the chequers deal.

As for why boris hasnt decided to present a good deal to parliament before taking it to the EU; not sure, I assume something about not wanting to use up political capital on votes that probably would be rendered moot by the EU.

This conundrum explains precisely why negotiating with foriegn powers has always been a prerogative of the executive, as it was understood as a matter of plain sense that negotiating by committee doesn't bring goox results.

Originally Posted by InsaneApache

Well the fact is he's an old style commie, and like all socialists regimes whether international of national it ends up the same, piles of bodies, prison camps and mass starvation. How anyone could even consider socialism is a good thing with regards it's history is astounding.

Labour socialism has done pretty good for the UK over the years. Have you read Labour's current manifesto? What do you dislike in it?

As for Brexit, the best option for a negotiated withdrawal seems to be to throw out all the Conservative parameters and just negotiate a new deal that cleaves closer to the EU. What's hampered May have been the Hard Brexiters among her party, not the Remainers. Maintain a full customs union.

Far be it from me to speak for Labour, but at this point it seems to me their whole 2019 orientation in campaigning should have been to make explicit commitments while offering something to both sides (while marginalizing the overwhelmingly Tory hard Brexit minority):

We are a Remain party and prefer Remain. To that end we back a second referendum, binding, to clarify the public opinion on critical points. HOWEVER, if the people do return a Leave result here is our bespoke vision for the type of Brexit we ought to have...

At least they seem to have been doing something productive...

As Brexit looms, a surge of community organizing from within is bridging political divides and refocusing the British Labour Party.

Originally Posted by InsaneApache

Well the fact is he's an old style commie, and like all socialists regimes whether international of national it ends up the same, piles of bodies, prison camps and mass starvation. How anyone could even consider socialism is a good thing with regards it's history is astounding.

Interesting select view of History you have. British invented the concentration camp during the Boer war. There is also the genocide of Native Americans and the Japanese internment camps, Chinese exclusion rights, slavery, etc. Looks like we are screwed by being a democracy!

In short, if you cherry pick bad examples, then you can make anything look bad.

If you look up the principles of Socialism, none of them are 'stick people in prison camps'. What happened in reality is a certain brand of authoritianism capitalised on the ideology to expliot masses, mostly in countries which are originally not mature enough to embrace it. This resulted in Totalitarian 'communist' governments.

However, if you look at the track record of Social Democracy (socialist regime!), it is doing very well, in places like Scandinavia.

One thing Corbyn does have is a cult of personality, the incessent droning of "Corbyn, Corbyn, Jeremy Corbyn" is cringe worthy.

Anti-Brexit forces have, I think, waged a successful campaign to reverse the referendum. A 'hard' Brexit will be delayed and deferred (and no 'deal' enacted) until sweeping electoral change in parliament allows parliament to rescind the withdrawal or another plebiscite repudiates the first with a 51.5% to 48.5% reversal.

I am not sure what price (direct or indirect) the EU will extract after the retraction.

Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

Anti-Brexit forces have, I think, waged a successful campaign to reverse the referendum. A 'hard' Brexit will be delayed and deferred (and no 'deal' enacted) until sweeping electoral change in parliament allows parliament to rescind the withdrawal or another plebiscite repudiates the first with a 51.5% to 48.5% reversal.

I am not sure what price (direct or indirect) the EU will extract after the retraction.

No price could be directly extracted since the UK could cancel at any point. That is the Law.

The EU would gain that the most independant country in Europe was brought to heel. I doubt anyone else would dare even bother trying.

I have no idea what the next election would bring. I hope Labour implode and the Lib Dems become the opposition.

Every other plebiscite the EU has had they lost the first time and after judicious massaging they won the second. We can't have the populace blocking what their masters want.

Originally Posted by Beskar

Interesting select view of History you have. British invented the concentration camp during the Boer war. There is also the genocide of Native Americans and the Japanese internment camps, Chinese exclusion rights, slavery, etc. Looks like we are screwed by being a democracy!

In short, if you cherry pick bad examples, then you can make anything look bad.

If you look up the principles of Socialism, none of them are 'stick people in prison camps'. What happened in reality is a certain brand of authoritianism capitalised on the ideology to expliot masses, mostly in countries which are originally not mature enough to embrace it. This resulted in Totalitarian 'communist' governments.

However, if you look at the track record of Social Democracy (socialist regime!), it is doing very well, in places like Scandinavia.

One thing Corbyn does have is a cult of personality, the incessent droning of "Corbyn, Corbyn, Jeremy Corbyn" is cringe worthy.

Ahh the old "That wasn't real socialism" meme. Pathetic.

Originally Posted by InsaneApache

Well the fact is he's an old style commie, and like all socialists regimes whether international of national it ends up the same, piles of bodies, prison camps and mass starvation. How anyone could even consider socialism is a good thing with regards it's history is astounding.

Can you show me where in Europe I can find these, because there are plenty of governments that follow socialist policies and do well enough.

You can probably find more issues with roots in capitalism, to be honest.

Originally Posted by InsaneApache

Ahh the old "That wasn't real socialism" meme. Pathetic.

You could at least try to refute his argument. I know that critical thinking and research are for those Uni-going twits, but you could at least try doing something other than screaming "fake news" when someone proves you wrong.

Originally Posted by Beskar

Interesting select view of History you have. British invented the concentration camp during the Boer war. There is also the genocide of Native Americans and the Japanese internment camps, Chinese exclusion rights, slavery, etc. Looks like we are screwed by being a democracy!.

As a progressive you surely believe human society moves forwards - so surely those 18th-19th century examples are less pertinent than the numerous 20th Century Socialist ones?

Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

As a progressive you surely believe human society moves forwards - so surely those 18th-19th century examples are less pertinent than the numerous 10th Century Socialist ones?

Are only progressives charged with wanting to see these times behind us? Or are we fairly unanimous in not wanting these times to return? For most of my life I've believed the latter, but the current lot seem to want to go back to the 1930s on the Axis side, while their popularity goes up with each stunt.

Also, presumably you mean 20th century. 10th century socialism only really existed in those who really believed in following Jesus's lifestyle.

Originally Posted by Pannonian

Are only progressives charged with wanting to see these times behind us? Or are we fairly unanimous in not wanting these times to return? For most of my life I've believed the latter, but the current lot seem to want to go back to the 1930s on the Axis side, while their popularity goes up with each stunt.

Also, presumably you mean 20th century. 10th century socialism only really existed in those who really believed in following Jesus's lifestyle.

I made the correction - thanks.

My point to Beskar was two-fold.

1. Socialism claims to be progressive yet in recent memory it has impeded progress more than helped and it recent memory it has been the worst culprit.

2. Many conservatives tend to see history as cyclical rather than progressive, which is to say humanity has not "progressed" so much as we have moved through phases on civilisation and barbarism.

At the moment the West is doing badly and it's not inconceivable our society will collapse - you could make the argument that British society already largely has - even pre-Brexit.

Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

1. Socialism claims to be progressive yet in recent memory it has impeded progress more than helped and it recent memory it has been the worst culprit.

Scandinavia doesn't look that way. Social Democracies (which are socialist) have a very good track record. Labour party is a Social Democratic party.

What people on the right tend to do is point to Communist China and the USSR, and similar nations. Yet those were Totalitarian regimes and they pretty much exist today, even if Russia rebranded from "left" to the "right". There are also many examples of right-wing governments such as Franco and various other tinpot dictators. Problem is, these are growing, with Brazil, Russia, Hungary, USA (Trump), etc the global establishment is creating the era of the "Strongmen".

Social Democrats are not Socialist. They do not support the state controlling the means of production. Rather they are content to leave the means of production in private hands and tax it heavily to fund social programs for the citizens. Socialism is a stage progressing towards a communist utopia. A lot of Yanks get the two mixed up as you apparently do.

The Union of the Soviet Socialist Republics is a bit of a clue.

Might be better if this theme was left here or started in another thread lest we derail this one.

Originally Posted by InsaneApache

Social Democrats are not Socialist. They do not support the state controlling the means of production. Rather they are content to leave the means of production in private hands and tax it heavily to fund social programs for the citizens. Socialism is a stage progressing towards a communist utopia. A lot of Yanks get the two mixed up as you apparently do.

The Union of the Soviet Socialist Republics is a bit of a clue.

Might be better if this theme was left here or started in another thread lest we derail this one.

They're what I'd like Britain to be more like. Instead, your lot is pushing Britain towards tyranny.

Originally Posted by Pannonian

They're what I'd like Britain to be more like. Instead, your lot is pushing Britain towards tyranny.

You want the UK to be more like the USSR?

Originally Posted by InsaneApache

Might be better if this theme was left here or started in another thread lest we derail this one.

I agree. I don't think we actually disagree on the topic, I think conflicting use of terminology is the error here.

Originally Posted by InsaneApache

You want the UK to be more like the USSR?

Social democratic Europe. You knew that, but you persist in asking anyway. I'll return the favour and ask you a question. What do you make of the complaints from MPs regarding death threats?

Originally Posted by Pannonian

Social democratic Europe. You knew that, but you persist in asking anyway. I'll return the favour and ask you a question. What do you make of the complaints from MPs regarding death threats?

You are trying to argue with someone presenting arguments in bad faith. He's not interested in anything other than "showing it to the libtards". When you understand this, you can augment your approach appropriately.

Originally Posted by InsaneApache

My first post in this thread, so forgive me I havn't read it all (TLDR)

I like Trump. He's upsetting all the right people.

Oh and as a businessman he know how it goes. It shows in the economy.

Another thing he's stitched on for a 2020 win.

That is all.