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Thread: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

  1. #3391
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    Pannonian:

    You really should drop the 350 millions in saving thing. It was then, leading up to the referendum, somewhere between a "lie" and a "damned lie." Leavers mostly figured it was hyperbole even then and now it is water under a series of bridges for two years. You will have to cope with the fact that none of the Leavers will bother to ask, and that none of the Leaver leadership is EVER going to say "I was lying to try to influence the vote, knowing full well it was a crock of excrement. I hereby resign and leave public life." like you clearly so want them to do.

    Your lot is winning anyway, just keep up the skeer and the next ref will clear it.
    "Which is why I am so determined to deliver now on the promises of that 2016 referendum campaign: not just to honour the will of the people, but to increase the cash available for this amazing national institution"

    4th August 2019, Boris Johnson, Prime Minister of the United Kingdom

    He's reiterated the promise whilst in the office of UK PM.

    Edit: I'm less confident than you are that the truth will win over lies, and I'm resigned to leaving the EU on excruciating terms to satisfy the Leave leadership's games. The least I can do, given the uselessness of our official opposition, is to remind Leavers that this was what they chose.
    Last edited by Pannonian; 10-21-2019 at 20:47.

  2. #3392
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Bills of this complexity normally take months to work through, with several stages of debates and votes. The government has given Parliament less than 2 days to read through the Bill before voting. At least one Tory MP has said that what they've seen of it and the rushed process makes them highly nervous. The Bill makes for bad law, the government knows it, and it wants it passed before everyone realises it is bad law.

    The DUP have already noted that Johnson has sold them out by normalising NI's economy with RoI's rather than the UK's. That's one bit. Another is the right to re-set employment and other rights in the future, which betrays the promises the government has made to the Labour rebels. More to come as people read through the Bill.

  3. #3393
    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    Bills of this complexity normally take months to work through, with several stages of debates and votes. The government has given Parliament less than 2 days to read through the Bill before voting. At least one Tory MP has said that what they've seen of it and the rushed process makes them highly nervous. The Bill makes for bad law, the government knows it, and it wants it passed before everyone realises it is bad law.

    The DUP have already noted that Johnson has sold them out by normalising NI's economy with RoI's rather than the UK's. That's one bit. Another is the right to re-set employment and other rights in the future, which betrays the promises the government has made to the Labour rebels. More to come as people read through the Bill.
    Should the EU then automatically give more time for the democratic process?

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
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  4. #3394

    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Lol, delayed again


  5. #3395
    Voluntary Suspension Voluntary Suspension Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Two steps Forward, one step back.

    Let's have some music for this interlude, how about Two Steps From Hell "Impossible":



    Now - to the point. Boris Johnson has already got further with this than May ever could have and, by my calculation he did it with an absolute majority in the House. Then the Bill got stuck in Limbo.

    Boris is till hewing to his October 31st Deadline out of obstinacy, he's starting to look a bit deluded, to be honest.
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  6. #3396
    Ja mata, TosaInu Forum Administrator edyzmedieval's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    So 31st of October is out of the picture.
    Ja mata, TosaInu. You will forever be remembered.

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  7. #3397
    Member Member Greyblades's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Assuming the EU dont tell us to sod off, pretty much.
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  8. #3398
    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus View Post
    he's starting to look a bit deluded, to be honest.
    Last edited by Beskar; 10-23-2019 at 20:06.
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  9. #3399

    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Lol, delayed again

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  10. #3400
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    phase two:

    https://twitter.com/EuroBriefing/sta...34693743960064

    hopefully you can read that - i could first time.
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  11. #3401
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Don't know if anyone's noticed, but the UK government has announced that it intends to break the law by not honouring the treaty it signed a year ago.

  12. #3402
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    Don't know if anyone's noticed, but the UK government has announced that it intends to break the law by not honouring the treaty it signed a year ago.
    Wow. Even with our Amerinds (Native Americans, First Peoples), we yanks usually took a couple or three years to go about ignoring and breaking them.
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

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  13. #3403
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    Wow. Even with our Amerinds (Native Americans, First Peoples), we yanks usually took a couple or three years to go about ignoring and breaking them.
    The chief legal adviser has resigned, ostensibly without explanation of why, but the assumption is that his client (the UK government) is planning to break the law and thus he couldn't continue to represent them.

  14. #3404
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    The chief legal adviser has resigned, ostensibly without explanation of why, but the assumption is that his client (the UK government) is planning to break the law and thus he couldn't continue to represent them.
    A personal sense of honor? Kudos to her/him if so. A personal sense of honor is far more scarce among our politicos here than it ought to be -- and we are starting to have too many who actively take pride in not having same.
    Last edited by Seamus Fermanagh; 09-10-2020 at 02:50.
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

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  15. #3405
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    A personal sense of honor? Kudos to her/him if so. A personal sense of honor is far more scare among our politicos here than it ought to be -- and we are starting to have too many who actively take pride in not having same.
    I don't know the ins and outs of legal practice, but the normal practice is supposedly that a lawyer cannot continue to represent their client if the client admits that they intend to break the law. A lawyer who continues would certainly be thrown out of the bar. I don't know if they'd be held complicit as well.

    The NI secretary said that their intended policy will be breaking international law "in a small and specific way" (which is alright then). The head of the Ways and Means committee in the US, which I gather is not an insignificant position, warns the UK government to follow the accords made on the NI-RoI border.

  16. #3406
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    The attorney general says that it breaks the law, but Parliamentary sovereignty overrides it. So it's a direct conflict between democracy and rule of law, and the government's democratic mandate means it does not have to follow the law if it doesn't want to. Has any other mature democracy put this argument forward before?

  17. #3407
    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    The attorney general says that it breaks the law, but Parliamentary sovereignty overrides it. So it's a direct conflict between democracy and rule of law, and the government's democratic mandate means it does not have to follow the law if it doesn't want to. Has any other mature democracy put this argument forward before?
    I don't recall breaking the law ever being part of any party's manifesto.

    If there was ever a time for the Queen to decide to do more than pose for coins and cut bunting this was it.

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  18. #3408
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post
    I don't recall breaking the law ever being part of any party's manifesto.

    If there was ever a time for the Queen to decide to do more than pose for coins and cut bunting this was it.

    What if the Tories then point to this obstruction as an example of the Remoaners' perfidious defiance of the will of the people? What if the voters then back this argument?

  19. #3409
    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    What if the Tories then point to this obstruction as an example of the Remoaners' perfidious defiance of the will of the people? What if the voters then back this argument?
    If voters were to back something then, well, fair enough. Parliament has the authority to cause all manner of harm. I don't have to agree with it.

    One of my main reasons for voting to leave was for the primacy of British sovereignty. Fate, it seems, has a cruel sense of humour.

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
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  20. #3410
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post
    If voters were to back something then, well, fair enough. Parliament has the authority to cause all manner of harm. I don't have to agree with it.

    One of my main reasons for voting to leave was for the primacy of British sovereignty. Fate, it seems, has a cruel sense of humour.

    Does that mean that the government is entitled to break international law if there are votes to be had in portraying it as patriotic? It's fairly obvious that this is how it is going to progress in coming weeks. Are there any ethical boundaries to what a government should be able to do? Or does a democratic mandate excuse any and all actions?

    Relating to this, the new cabinet secretary has said that civil servants will not be going against the civil service code in implementing policy that breaks international law.

  21. #3411
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    New Zealand have joined the EU and US in expressing concerns about the UK's trustworthiness given the latter's willingness to unilaterally ignore international treaties.

    In completely unrelated news, the UK foreign secretary has called on Iran to honour its agreement on nuclear testing.

  22. #3412
    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    Does that mean that the government is entitled to break international law if there are votes to be had in portraying it as patriotic? It's fairly obvious that this is how it is going to progress in coming weeks. Are there any ethical boundaries to what a government should be able to do? Or does a democratic mandate excuse any and all actions?

    Relating to this, the new cabinet secretary has said that civil servants will not be going against the civil service code in implementing policy that breaks international law.
    You appear to be approaching this as with hobbes leviathan. There is some lovely shining "right" out there and everything else is "wrong".

    "Entitled"? International laws only apply if a country chooses to abide by them. Governments can therefore choose to leave whenever they want. That is the point of having a government.

    Which international laws should the UK be abiding? All of them? The ones the UK has signed up to? Ones that have passed the UN? Or just the ones that are "right"?

    Ethics are equally based on the country and on the time. Things that are now thought to be ethical would not have been decades ago, and I'm sure that things we now do will be thought to be unethical in the future.

    The Civil Service Code can also be rewritten by government - perhaps to specify that Civil Servant follow UK law as opposing to pick and choose what they feel like. Those that disagree can resign.

    The UK government shouldn't be doing this for a very simple reason: the Civilised world functions on a series of beliefs and one important one is the rule of law. If we all pretend laws exist and need to be obeyed, then from that almost everything else is derived - ownership of ideas and objects and the ability to trade. The more countries ride roughshod over them, sooner or later it is worse for all. One hundred years ago, a gentleman's agreement was sufficient for the UK government to send millions of men off to get killed because a chap doesn't break his word with other chaps. (and yes, massive perceived self interest) And although many might have thought the UK mad for having such a Code it did mean countries generally knew where they stood.

    Boris appears to be cheerfully courting anarchy with the view that laws don't matter when inconvenient. Even Blair got his top pet lawyer to change his mind and pretend he had legal backing for attacking Iraq - what he did was illegal but he pretended it was following the law. Generally one can break the law and not get caught (as was the case with Cummings) but that doesn't make him innocent, just not charged with a crime.Even he didn't just turn around and say "yeah, I just don't really think I need to bother with that law since it was inconvenient".

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
    Science flies you to the moon, religion flies you into buildings.
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  23. #3413
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post
    You appear to be approaching this as with hobbes leviathan. There is some lovely shining "right" out there and everything else is "wrong".

    "Entitled"? International laws only apply if a country chooses to abide by them. Governments can therefore choose to leave whenever they want. That is the point of having a government.

    Which international laws should the UK be abiding? All of them? The ones the UK has signed up to? Ones that have passed the UN? Or just the ones that are "right"?

    Ethics are equally based on the country and on the time. Things that are now thought to be ethical would not have been decades ago, and I'm sure that things we now do will be thought to be unethical in the future.

    The Civil Service Code can also be rewritten by government - perhaps to specify that Civil Servant follow UK law as opposing to pick and choose what they feel like. Those that disagree can resign.

    The UK government shouldn't be doing this for a very simple reason: the Civilised world functions on a series of beliefs and one important one is the rule of law. If we all pretend laws exist and need to be obeyed, then from that almost everything else is derived - ownership of ideas and objects and the ability to trade. The more countries ride roughshod over them, sooner or later it is worse for all. One hundred years ago, a gentleman's agreement was sufficient for the UK government to send millions of men off to get killed because a chap doesn't break his word with other chaps. (and yes, massive perceived self interest) And although many might have thought the UK mad for having such a Code it did mean countries generally knew where they stood.

    Boris appears to be cheerfully courting anarchy with the view that laws don't matter when inconvenient. Even Blair got his top pet lawyer to change his mind and pretend he had legal backing for attacking Iraq - what he did was illegal but he pretended it was following the law. Generally one can break the law and not get caught (as was the case with Cummings) but that doesn't make him innocent, just not charged with a crime.Even he didn't just turn around and say "yeah, I just don't really think I need to bother with that law since it was inconvenient".

    To be specific, the one being discussed at the moment is the agreement the UK government signed last year. Actually, looking it up, he agreed to it last year. He actually officially signed it this year. So he signed the agreement in January this year, then in September his government announces that it intends to ignore it wherever it wishes.

    The EU, US and NZ so far have noted that the UK is not a trustworthy partner given its track record. Let's see what else we lose in pursuit of the perfect Brexit.

  24. #3414

    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    Does that mean that the government is entitled to break international law if there are votes to be had in portraying it as patriotic? It's fairly obvious that this is how it is going to progress in coming weeks. Are there any ethical boundaries to what a government should be able to do? Or does a democratic mandate excuse any and all actions?

    Relating to this, the new cabinet secretary has said that civil servants will not be going against the civil service code in implementing policy that breaks international law.
    I wish you wouldn't describe 'government wins an election and does things' as democracy. No less when parliamentary governments are not typically formed upon a majority of votes. Regardless, policy isn't democracy. It's not a tension within democracy when a government does what it will (whether good or bad).

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    The EU, US and NZ so far have noted that the UK is not a trustworthy partner given its track record.
    I think the US is currently apt to underperform the UK in trustworthiness rankings, but the Tories are welcome to try to even the score.


    And can I just say, OT but it's messed up that in the US right now the large majority of uni students have at least some in-person learning component (with cases consequently arising from colleges in excess of 50 thousand within a month), whereas the majority of children have to make do with fully-distanced learning. AFAIK almost all states currently allow indoor dining and bars. Off the top of my head maybe New Jersey doesn't yet. New York* doesn't. But the priorities aren't entirely strange when you remember the other messed-up fact that Republicans have refused to support state and local budgets during an unprecedented fiscal shortfall among them.

    *NY is currently planning to resume indoor dining at 25% capacity from the end of September, but there is no timetable on resuming bar service (alcohol can only be served to people who are also eating and ordering food).
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  25. #3415
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dominic Cummings
    Also, don’t worry about the so-called ‘permanent’ commitments this historically abysmal Cabinet are trying to make on our behalf. They are not ‘permanent’ and a serious government — one not cowed by officials and their bullshit ‘legal advice’ with which they have herded ministers like sheep — will dispense with these commitments and any domestic law enforcing them.
    True to his word. According to rory, he didn't vote for the government to break the law. According to Furunculus, anyone voting Tory would have known that Cummings came with it.

  26. #3416
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    So that's the chair of Ways and Means (AFAIK the body that controls the purse strings of the US government), the leader of Congress (the lawmaking body), and now the presidential candidate favoured to win who have all warned that any US-UK trade deal is contingent on the UK keeping the Good Friday Agreement. Which the UK have just passed a law to allow it to disregard. Does this mean that the Brexiteers are now hoping that Trump and the Republicans will sweep the US elections?

  27. #3417
    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    So that's the chair of Ways and Means (AFAIK the body that controls the purse strings of the US government), the leader of Congress (the lawmaking body), and now the presidential candidate favoured to win who have all warned that any US-UK trade deal is contingent on the UK keeping the Good Friday Agreement. Which the UK have just passed a law to allow it to disregard. Does this mean that the Brexiteers are now hoping that Trump and the Republicans will sweep the US elections?
    First off, there has been a lot more about going against "the spirit" of the Good Friday Agreement (which itself is the UK government undertaking a deal with Terrorists) rather than stating that what was being done was legally against the agreement.

    And as to the "All Brexiteers are now Trump supporters"... Try to stop being so obtuse.

    Wanting to leave the EU means... just that. And even then the reasons are not all the same.

    Perhaps there are some Brexiteers who wanted to leave the EU so they could have Boris as leader (very foresighted since he was on the fence about the whole thing). Most had one digital choice on the matter and at the last election a choice between Corbyn and Johnson. As you well know. As things currently are with Keir Starmer next election there is a good chance I'll vote Labour. I loathe Corbyn and Dianne Abbot, but then I also loathe Boris and Rees-Mogg. I don't neatly fit into any one of the parties really.

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
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  28. #3418
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post
    First off, there has been a lot more about going against "the spirit" of the Good Friday Agreement (which itself is the UK government undertaking a deal with Terrorists) rather than stating that what was being done was legally against the agreement.

    And as to the "All Brexiteers are now Trump supporters"... Try to stop being so obtuse.

    Wanting to leave the EU means... just that. And even then the reasons are not all the same.

    Perhaps there are some Brexiteers who wanted to leave the EU so they could have Boris as leader (very foresighted since he was on the fence about the whole thing). Most had one digital choice on the matter and at the last election a choice between Corbyn and Johnson. As you well know. As things currently are with Keir Starmer next election there is a good chance I'll vote Labour. I loathe Corbyn and Dianne Abbot, but then I also loathe Boris and Rees-Mogg. I don't neatly fit into any one of the parties really.

    Whether you talk about the spirit or otherwise, Biden, Pelosi and Neal have made it clear. Anything that leads to there being a border between NI and RoI will mean there will be no US-UK trade deal. No obfuscations. No excuses. No pointing the finger at someone else.

  29. #3419
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    Whether you talk about the spirit or otherwise, Biden, Pelosi and Neal have made it clear. Anything that leads to there being a border between NI and RoI will mean there will be no US-UK trade deal. No obfuscations. No excuses. No pointing the finger at someone else.
    Do not presume that the Dem slate will win. I hope it will and the advantage is in their court, but a 2016 near repeat is not impossible at this stage.

    BTW, I would also NOT presume that the would-be Dem leadership is stating fact so much as a preference and opening position. I do not see us cutting off the UK.
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

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    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    Whether you talk about the spirit or otherwise, Biden, Pelosi and Neal have made it clear. Anything that leads to there being a border between NI and RoI will mean there will be no US-UK trade deal. No obfuscations. No excuses. No pointing the finger at someone else.
    No obfuscations or excuses. What else is there? Does evidence count as an excuse? Since free movement across the border by treaty predates both Ireland and the UK joining the EU (or what was the EEC at the time).

    The UK has demanded a trade deal with the ability for free movement over the Irish border for obvious reasons. The EU doesn't want this for obvious reasons.

    The end point is the choice of all parties:

    Ireland chooses to remain in the EU rather than have a free border. Probably a no brainer, but still a choice.
    The EU chooses to enforce the border with more rigour than it does some other borders with non-EU countries (such as the Vatican). Again, a choice and one they are highly likely to undertake to preserve the political EU - since the EU makes little economic sense.
    The UK then I think has three choices - allow cross border trade (keeping up with the Spirit of the Good Friday Agreement) and allow a foreign party to create an internal division in the UK (spoiler - I'd happily give Norther Ireland to anyone who wants that suppurating boil of a place) which it appears Boris has done without realising it since he didn't really grasp the treaty he signed or tear up the Treaty, allow Southern Ireland to freely trade with the North keeping in theory the Irish happy except that the South would have to apply EU tariffs and they'd create the border themselves or finally end with a Trade agreement with the EU that would basically mean we would not be able to have meaningful trade deals without the EU's blessing.
    The USA can choose to or not have an agreement with the UK. And there are quite a lot of votes in and around Boston aren't there who are part of the Irish diaspora? Best collect those votes! I doubt the USA would be keen to have a deal with a country that disregards international laws - we don't have a Superpower Exemption card any more.

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    Do not presume that the Dem slate will win. I hope it will and the advantage is in their court, but a 2016 near repeat is not impossible at this stage.

    BTW, I would also NOT presume that the would-be Dem leadership is stating fact so much as a preference and opening position. I do not see us cutting off the UK.
    A trade deal would be good but no trade deal would merely be continuing the status quo. The UK mainly needs it to show itself as a major player on the world stage. The sooner the UK chooses to accept its position has altered since 1900 the better.

    The USA probably still would want the UK in its sphere of influence and a trade deal is a pretty cheap thing to give (compared to Pakistan / Israel / Egypt to name but a few).

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